G-d and Physics

[Traveler]

One of the debates surrounding religion and science revolves around the nature of G-d and the laws of physics. As a physicists and devout disciple of Christ (LDS) I am curious about the relationship others of faith see between G-d and the laws of physics.

Do you believe G-d defined the Laws of Physics?

Do you believe G-d used the Laws of Physics to create the universe?

Do you believe G-d used principles other than the laws of Physics (specifically supernatural or contrary to the laws of physics principles that he keeps hidden or secret from mankind) in creating the universe?

Do you believe that life in the universe is abundant or scarce?

Do you believe that life throughout the universe to be competitive, predatory, and parasitic?

Pending on the interest on the forum we may want to isolate some subject for deeper discussion, add to the subjects and not waist our time with physical things that really do not matter in eternity.

The Traveler

Edited September 17, 2012 by Traveler
Changed wording on principles used to create the universe question

[Dravin]

Do you believe G-d defined the Laws of Physics?

No. I'm assuming that you mean to be asking if we believe that God arbitrarily created the Laws of Physics where they didn't exist before. I'm inclined to put the Laws of Physics on the palette board and not the easel.

Do you believe G-d used the Laws of Physics to create the universe?

Yes.

Do you believe G-d used principles other than the laws of Physics (specifically principles that he keeps hidden or secret from mankind) in creating the universe?

This question is a bit tricky, because how do we tell the different between what is being kept hidden or secret from mankind and what it is that we simply don't know? And just how big an umbrella are we making the laws of Physics?

Do you believe that life in the universe is abundant or scarce?

Abundant, but something to keep in mind is that's a very subjective term (abundant versus scarce).

Do you believe that life throughout the universe to be competitive, predatory, and parasitic?

I believe it's similar in nature to that which we see here, what we have seen here, and what we will see here. It may be a touch egocentric, but I believe that the principles that governed the creation and development of life on this planet are going to be at play on other planets.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Dravin

[Traveler]

...

This question is a bit tricky, because how do we tell the different between what is being kept hidden or secret from mankind and what it is that we simply don't know? And just how big an umbrella are we making the laws of Physics?

...

I did not intend the question to be tricky and I should have worded it better - I should have ask if you believe that G-d used principles in creation that by nature are contrary to the laws of physics - that creation was "supernatural" or magic.

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

Do you believe G-d defined the Laws of Physics?

Great question. This question intrigues me because of the debates I read between Christians and atheists or agnostics. Most Christians appear to believe that God is the author of all laws which created the universe.

The LDS theology presents a different idea, seeing our own doctrine, and if I should become like my Heavenly Father, I would say - the laws of physics were around before my creation, or conception (I am not speaking however regarding my spirit matter which is eternal, I am speaking regarding my journey in becoming like God)

It lends me to believe that laws existed before. Thus, my answer, No.

Do you believe G-d used the Laws of Physics to create the universe?

According to the limited understanding I have, I would say "yes".

Do you believe G-d used principles other than the laws of Physics (specifically principles that he keeps hidden or secret from mankind) in creating the universe?

Yes. I don't believe we have even tapped the Lord's understanding regarding the laws which govern the universe. We have learned a lot, but I would believe there is more than just the laws we have gathered as humans.

Do you believe that life in the universe is abundant or scarce?

Abundant. Although, I would say, abundant via disciplined societies.

Do you believe that life throughout the universe to be competitive, predatory, and parasitic?

I would follow in-line with Dravin's answer.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Anddenex

[Vort]

Do you believe G-d defined the Laws of Physics?

Yes. I concede that it is possible that the laws of physics (or underlying metalaws) are themselves self-existent and eternal, and that God simply knows and obeys those unchanging laws. But for our purposes here, I think it is far more useful to assume that God is the author of natural law, and not bound by it.

Another way of saying this is that I do not believe that LDS doctrine implies that natural law is somehow "above" God, though such an idea might in some sense be compatible with LDS doctrine.

Do you believe G-d used the Laws of Physics to create the universe?

Yes.

Do you believe G-d used principles other than the laws of Physics (specifically principles that he keeps hidden or secret from mankind) in creating the universe?

No idea. I don't even know that this question is well-defined. If God created physical law, then I expect he acted within that physical law in this universe -- else why create the law?

Do you believe that life in the universe is abundant or scarce?

Recognizing that these are completely relative terms, I choose "abundant".

Do you believe that life throughout the universe to be competitive, predatory, and parasitic?

Yes.

[RMGuy]

Jesus can change physics, just watch that last second field goal again, and you'll be a believer. BYU doesn't play on Sundays...even overtimes.

;-)

-RM

[Anddenex]

Jesus can change physics, just watch that last second field goal again, and you'll be a believer. BYU doesn't play on Sundays...even overtimes.

;-)

-RM

LOL - Don't remind us, so disappointing.

[john doe]

Jesus can change physics, just watch that last second field goal again, and you'll be a believer. BYU doesn't play on Sundays...even overtimes.

;-)

-RM

They don't let their fans storm the field after a win against a team they claim is not their rival either.

[classylady]

Back to the original post, whenever I have contemplated how God works, I have always felt that God uses natural laws (physics) to bring to pass His purposes. I believe there are many principles and laws that we have yet to discover, and perhaps may never discover. Maybe there are some things that "man" is not meant to know while in this mortal time period.

[garryw]

I recall reading something which said that things "obey" the commands of God of their own will. Or in other words if God tells a proton to move a certain way it will move. Or on a larger scale, a mountain.

I also think it is nonsense to suppose the laws of physics are violated by anyone.

So the only solution is that we just dont know all the laws of physics and God does. Because he seems to do "miracles" which appear to violate the laws of physics.

Also, I think God is co-eternal with physics. So therefore he didn't create the laws of physics. Leave it to mortals to demand that things have to have a beginning.

[Blackmarch]

One of the debates surrounding religion and science revolves around the nature of G-d and the laws of physics. As a physicists and devout disciple of Christ (LDS) I am curious about the relationship others of faith see between G-d and the laws of physics.

Do you believe G-d defined the Laws of Physics?

no idea. however if any individual could do such a thing, he could.

Do you believe G-d used the Laws of Physics to create the universe?

absolutely

Do you believe G-d used principles other than the laws of Physics (specifically supernatural or contrary to the laws of physics principles that he keeps hidden or secret from mankind) in creating the universe?

wouldnt physics we don't know about still be physics? I'd imagine everything he used that we donn't know about would eventually fall under physics some way or another as we come to know them.

Do you believe that life in the universe is abundant or scarce?

i'd say abundant. however what benchmark are we going to use to compare??

Do you believe that life throughout the universe to be competitive, predatory, and parasitic?

as well as symbiotic and cooperative.

Pending on the interest on the forum we may want to isolate some subject for deeper discussion, add to the subjects and not waist our time with physical things that really do not matter in eternity.

The Traveler

physical and spiritual are two ends of the same spectrum.

[Guest]

The "Laws of Physics" is a man-made understanding of the world around us. Man in this case, is like a little 2 year old pulling out the legs of the ant, telling it to walk, and concludes that the ant is deaf.

So, which comes first, God or Physics? My short answer: So, you think you know Physics?

[Traveler]

The "Laws of Physics" is a man-made understanding of the world around us. Man in this case, is like a little 2 year old pulling out the legs of the ant, telling it to walk, and concludes that the ant is deaf.

So, which comes first, God or Physics? My short answer: So, you think you know Physics?

Hmmmmm - interesting thoughts - Should not someone that understand G-d a little better than others (especially others that have rejected G-d) have a huge advantage in understanding and utilizing Physics to explain and take advantage (have dominion) in the world and universe around us?

The Traveler

[Guest]

Hmmmmm - interesting thoughts - Should not someone that understand G-d a little better than others (especially others that have rejected G-d) have a huge advantage in understanding and utilizing Physics to explain and take advantage (have dominion) in the world and universe around us?

The Traveler

That's a matter of faith. You think you know God, others think you're blowing smoke up your butt. So when it comes to Physics - just like when it comes to the Bible - others who have a different faith look at it and interpret things according to their world view and apply it as such. Who is to say our understanding pf Physics is more superior? Because, for all we know, we got it all wrong because all we see is the ant not moving and not the missing legs.

[Traveler]

...

as well as symbiotic and cooperative.

...

I think this is an incredibly important thought - I hope you and others (including me) are are appreciative if the significance of this thought. That it is possible to have life in balance without death?

The Traveler

[LittleWyvern]

Do you believe G-d defined the Laws of Physics?

Yes, in the sense that He defined physical laws that govern energy, forces, and physical matter. Our knowledge of these laws, I believe, will always be incomplete.

Do you believe G-d used the Laws of Physics to create the universe?

Certainly.

Do you believe G-d used principles other than the laws of Physics (specifically supernatural or contrary to the laws of physics principles that he keeps hidden or secret from mankind) in creating the universe?

Yes, the Priesthood. While the laws God defined apply to physical things such as matter, forces, and energy, they do not describe the laws governing spiritual things. While I believe God used the physical laws He defined to give meaning and order to the earth, there are some things that must be done on a spiritual level.

Do you believe that life in the universe is abundant or scarce?

Do you believe that life throughout the universe to be competitive, predatory, and parasitic?

I'm not sure what to say about these.

[Traveler]

That's a matter of faith. You think you know God, others think you're blowing smoke up your butt. So when it comes to Physics - just like when it comes to the Bible - others who have a different faith look at it and interpret things according to their world view and apply it as such. Who is to say our understanding pf Physics is more superior? Because, for all we know, we got it all wrong because all we see is the ant not moving and not the missing legs.

I would think that someone able to send a person to the moon and back and sending vehicles (robots) to explorer Mars has a better grasp of the universe than someone living in a cave, cooking over a fire and thinking the world is flat and the center of the universe.

I believe the operative word in scripture is dominion - not mere survival or talking (or as you said blowing smoke - wherever).

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Yes, in the sense that He defined physical laws that govern energy, forces, and physical matter. Our knowledge of these laws, I believe, will always be incomplete.

Certainly.

Yes, the Priesthood. While the laws God defined apply to physical things such as matter, forces, and energy, they do not describe the laws governing spiritual things. While I believe God used the physical laws He defined to give meaning and order to the earth, there are some things that must be done on a spiritual level.

I'm not sure what to say about these.

Your thoughts concerning the Priesthood are interesting. Do you believe the priesthood had the same effects on things physical as as it does on things spiritual?

The Traveler

[annewandering]

Thought you guys might be interested in this mans idea on God and Physics.

Creation Physics: GOD'S PARTICLES PROVE CREATION

Oh that is an old site he had. Heres a new one. Fundamental Creation Physics

Edited September 18, 2012 by annewandering

[Blackmarch]

I think this is an incredibly important thought - I hope you and others (including me) are are appreciative if the significance of this thought. That it is possible to have life in balance without death?

The Traveler

If we throw immortality into the equation then there will have to be some point where there is a balance without death.

Altho even without that, i'd think that it is possible.

[Guest]

I would think that someone able to send a person to the moon and back and sending vehicles (robots) to explorer Mars has a better grasp of the universe than someone living in a cave, cooking over a fire and thinking the world is flat and the center of the universe.

I believe the operative word in scripture is dominion - not mere survival or talking (or as you said blowing smoke - wherever).

The Traveler

If you're asking whether Neil Armstrong has a better understanding of Physics than the Geico caveman the answer is very simple. Armstrong, of course. But if you're asking whether Neil Armstrong has a better understanding of the nature of God than the Geico caveman... that's a different matter all together.

[Traveler]

If you're asking whether Neil Armstrong has a better understanding of Physics than the Geico caveman the answer is very simple. Armstrong, of course. But if you're asking whether Neil Armstrong has a better understanding of the nature of God than the Geico caveman... that's a different matter all together.

My point is that knowledge without action (or use of the knowledge) is useless and pointless. If knowledge is used somehow to come to invalid or false conclusions there are very few possibilities. Either the knowledge is false or the manner in which knowledge is utilized is incorrect - but since knowing how to use knowledge is part of the "knowledge" base it stands to reason that those that use whatever knowledge for greater accomplishment of necessity have more knowledge and understanding.

In short if someone is doing more with knowledge than another - obviously one possesses more knowledge, understanding and intelligence. If I am to learn - I would choose to learn from (give more trust in) those that have better knowledge, intelligence and understanding.

The Traveler

[searching_questioner]

Hmmmmm - interesting thoughts - Should not someone that understand G-d a little better than others (especially others that have rejected G-d) have a huge advantage in understanding and utilizing Physics to explain and take advantage (have dominion) in the world and universe around us?

The Traveler

I like your comment here Traveler, and I have often wondered why physicists with an understanding of LDS doctrine are not in the forefront of their field. It seems to me that LDS doctrines concerning astronomy and the role of the universe provides a powerful tool for understanding and explaining and furthering our understanding of, a whole range physical phenomena. I think that if the concerted effort were made by LDS physicists, over time, a whole new body of understanding could be created using scriptural and doctrinal, rather than scientific tools. Regrettably, it is likely that any body of understanding created in such a way would not be given as much credence as that created by scientific methods.

[searching_questioner]

Do you believe G-d used the Laws of Physics to create the universe?

I believe that the processes by which the universe was created may be labeled as the laws of physics.

Do you believe G-d used principles other than the laws of Physics (specifically supernatural or contrary to the laws of physics principles that he keeps hidden or secret from mankind) in creating the universe?

Everything is supernatural or magic until it is explained, and then that explanation is said to be one of the laws physics. I also believe that one of the indicators of the timing of the second coming is the increasing rate at which these laws are being discovered and better understood, or put another way, the increasing rate at which God is revealing these laws. As the second coming gets closer, man's understanding of these laws becomes more God-like.

Do you believe that life in the universe is abundant or scarce?

3 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

This is not to say that life exists on every world, but I think that on balance, it is more likely than not that at least some of these other worlds have life on them. However, Doctrine and Covenants 88:36-39, particularly the reference in vs 39 to beings, suggests that all space is occupied by a kingdom of some sort, that these kingdoms are governed by law, and that beings which are governed by law exist within those kingdoms.

All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

Do you believe that life throughout the universe to be competitive, predatory, and parasitic?

Life is what its creator made it to be, subject to the conditions of free agency, uplifting divine influence and down pulling opposition. Within these three conditions, there is an almost infinite range of possibilities about the nature of life. I think that the most compelling component of our eternal natures is not the instinct to be competitive, predatory or parasitic, but the instinct to progress and move upwards. It was this instinct which led to us, as intelligences, reaching the point where we “qualified” to be joined to a spirit, and this same instinct which led us to accept Gods version of the plan of salvation because it provided us with further opportunities to progress. So I think it would be more correct to characterise life throughout the universe as upwardly mobile, engaged in an eternal quest for improvement.

Edited September 23, 2012 by searching_questioner
had a further thought

[Seminarysnoozer]

That's a matter of faith. You think you know God, others think you're blowing smoke up your butt. So when it comes to Physics - just like when it comes to the Bible - others who have a different faith look at it and interpret things according to their world view and apply it as such. Who is to say our understanding pf Physics is more superior? Because, for all we know, we got it all wrong because all we see is the ant not moving and not the missing legs.

I agree. On top of that, what we knew about physics etc. (the sciences) is way more than what we will ever learn as man. We spent thousands and thousands of years in the presence of God (if not longer). I think we had way more physics classes than one could ever have in their short life here on Earth. Putting all the scientists together that will ever exist during mortality could never match even the slowest of all souls in the pre-mortal realm. Don't we believe all that will come back to us?

Dominion of the world will be via our Savior, there is no other way. All other ways are a diversion by the one who likes to divert. Are there people who are inspired by God to do wonderful things in science that advance the God's purpose? absolutely. But, we shouldn't get caught up in the seeking of facts and figures that have already been mastered by our spirits many many years ago without having an eye single to the glory of God. It can be like money. Money in and of itself is not evil, just the love of it. I think secular learning is similar, it should be done in the right light and purpose not just the simple acquisition of it that serves no other purpose then satisfying human pride and the spirit of conquering power.