Would You Drink If It Were Permissable?

[prisonchaplain]

What if they WoW had never been required? What if it were announced that from now on, observance of the WoW would be a matter of personal conscience, not a universal requirement. Would you drink moderately. Perhaps coffee, but not wine? Perhaps wine and beer, but not 'hard liquor?' Why?

Personally, coffee is not an issue in most non-LDS churches, and the health debate on it seems to now be tilted in its favor. However, alcohol is culturally condemned in my church, and I do not imbibe. There is no singular prohibition, but the unwritten understanding is very powerful. Furthermore, at least in America, abstinence seems the cautious choice--considering our high levels of alcoholism, DUIs, etc. It's quite common for people to get drunk, as a justification for carrying out on their wicked plans (Hey, I was drunk--sorry, dude!).

Yet, I would not condemn the moderate drinker.

THOUGHTS?

[StrawberryFields]

I would be very cautious about drinking. There has been a drinking problem that has dated far back into my family. Not sure I would want to chance it. I think I might like the escape that others have talked to me about from time to time.

[BenRaines]

After ten years in law enforcement and some time in the military I do not care for alcohol or what it does to people.

My grandfather on my mothers side and my father were and are alcoholics. My father has not drank in over twenty years but still worries about it daily.

I do not see any good that can come from alcohol consumption and lots of bad. I personally have not lost anyone to a drunk driver but my wife's car was broadsided years ago by a drunk driver and it was his second recorded offense. Who knows how many other times he had gotten away with it.

If it would not impact my membership I would not drink alcohol or smoke or drink coffee.

Ben Raines

[Palerider]

Not sure what I would do if not for the word of wisdom....after growing up with an alcholic parent and seeing what that was like....I would hope that I would not drink becuase of that expierence.

[Winnie G]

No I think I would fallow the Wow for my health.

Since I quit drinking socially I now have to worry when I even take cough meds.

To much and I am sick at a dog named “Ralph”

Though at Christmas time I do miss the smell and taste of Grand Marnier, I loved it.

[prisonchaplain]

No I think I would fallow the Wow for my health.

Since I quit drinking socially I now have to worry when I even take cough meds.

To much and I am sick at a dog named “Ralph”

Though at Christmas time I do miss the smell and taste of Grand Marnier, I loved it.

So far, the comments have been about alcohol and it's abuse. One mentioned health.

However, there are many reports now that suggest a glass or two of red wine may actually be good for health. And, as I mentioned earlier, the reports on coffee are leaning more towards its benefits than its potential harm (except for very specific groups of people, who have likely already been counseled by their doctors).

So, what of coffee? What about an occasional celebratory glass of wine? Like I said, my family askews alcohol (except for medicines and occasional cooking).

Bottom-line: It's totally appropriate, imho, to say no to coffee because "God said so." Likewise, alcohol, and whatever. Jews do not eat shrimp or cheeseburgers for the same reasons. Should those prohibitions be removed...

[Traveler]

What if they WoW had never been required? What if it were announced that from now on, observance of the WoW would be a matter of personal conscience, not a universal requirement. Would you drink moderately. Perhaps coffee, but not wine? Perhaps wine and beer, but not 'hard liquor?' Why?

Personally, coffee is not an issue in most non-LDS churches, and the health debate on it seems to now be tilted in its favor. However, alcohol is culturally condemned in my church, and I do not imbibe. There is no singular prohibition, but the unwritten understanding is very powerful. Furthermore, at least in America, abstinence seems the cautious choice--considering our high levels of alcoholism, DUIs, etc. It's quite common for people to get drunk, as a justification for carrying out on their wicked plans (Hey, I was drunk--sorry, dude!).

Yet, I would not condemn the moderate drinker.

THOUGHTS?

I would not drink - I do not like stimulants or drugs. Even when I go to the dentist to have an new filling I request no drugs. I would rather have the pain than the effects. I know this is extreme but I have learned (through meditation) to place mind over matter and I do not like being disconnected from or not aware of the physical experience G-d has given to me.

I understand that we all make choices - if someone values their choices and has no desire to change them - I do not condemn them - the outcome is their choice. If they want to change something, I feel that I should help them but if they know what they desire out of life it is also my duty to realize that is their right.

The Traveler

[Guest MrsS]

For me, I have been there done that: Alcohol, tea, coffee, illegal drugs, cigarettes. I quit the alcohol after a couple of total blackouts. Found myself home, on the living room floor, naked as a new born, no clothes anywhere, no purse and no car in the drive way. Never did find my clothes, purse or keys. Scared the desire to drink right out of me.

I quit the cigarettes when I could not make it up and down the stairs at work without huffing and puffing and my lungs aching (this after losing 45 pounds too!). It was my birthday gift to me.

All of this was when I was very inactive. The drugs I quit just short of one year after I got involved with them, in my very early 20's. Again, had a horrific scare with them and that was enough for me.

My uncles are (one is deceased so in his case was) alcoholics. They were forbidden to come into our home if they were under the influence. FYI my parents were not members at that time. My parents, grandmother, uncles all smoked, drank coffee and tea. I love the combined smell of a good pipe tobacco and fresh brewing coffee!!!

Winnie, I too love Grand Mariner and Courvoisier Liquor. I also love kalua mixed with either rum or vodka, or neat.

I loved the taste of bourbon, whiskey, and many of the liquers. My drink of choice was an Old Fashioned.

That being said- I knew that smoking was/is bad for you. When Dad had to be in the VA Hospital, I had to go by the cancer ward to get to Dad's ward - that is where I saw men when great chunks of their throats, necks, jaws and lower faces, cut out and they were smoking through their noses.

I also knew that alcohol was equally bad for you. Every car my oldest uncle (the cop) had, he totaled in a drunken fog. Even the patrol cars that were issued to him!

The drugs were something that I had to experience and learn from on my own. Thank God that I did so within a year of starting on them.

As for coffee and tea, why is it that those with Kidney stones/gallbladder stones are told to quit drinking coffee, tea, sodas that have caffine in them, and chocolate?? Yes they are - because those drinks contribute to and aggrivate the conditions.

Knowing what I know now - from the life experiences that I have gone through - I would still stick to the Word of Wisdom.

By the way PC, your first statement: What if the WoW had never been required? What if it were announced that from now on, observance of the WoW would be a matter of personal conscience, not a universal requirement. Is not really correct. It is NOT required. It is recommended to us. We are encouraged to follow the Word of Wisdom. It has always been and will always be a matter of personal choice. Agency. Since time immortal, we have been given agency by God the Father. With this agency comes consequences. Kill a person, God forbids you to be with him in the eternities. The mortal consequences are you will die or go to prison. Steal, get caught - go to jail. Lie, your lies will all get tangled up and you will be caught in them. Help someone, God will bless you. Pay your honest tithe, God will shower you with blessings. Over eat, and you will have negative health problems, follow the Word Of Wisdom and you will have good health.

When we went to the Temple and received our Endowments we made covenents with Father- one of those was to observe the Word of Wisdom. That is why we are asked if we are observing the Word of Wisdom during our interview with our Bishop/Branch President and Stake President at each renewal. We covenented with Father to do this, and before He can bless us, we must be obedient.

[Fiannan]

Actually, a glass of wine per day for men has been connected with lowering heart attack risk. However, the antioxidant compounds in red wine are also found in grape juice. It is not the alcohol that is associated with health. And women drinking only a glass of wine per day increase their chance of breast cancer and do not get the heart protection.

If people want to get healthy hearts and reduce their cancer risks they need to exercise more often, have more sex and eat moderately right (no, I am not a health food Nazi).

I have never desired alcohol -- either before or after joining the Church. Nor do I desire heroin or cocaine - also drugs that are dangerous to the body (although kill far fewer people than alcohol).

Coffee? Hate the smell of it and especially hate the breath of people after they drink it. Cigarettes? Repulsive and dangerous. Never have smoked one in my entire life.

Tea? That is something I grew up on (ice tea that is). That's the only thing I actually gave up when joining the Church.

[Outshined]

No. I did not drink before I converted, and would not now.

I never developed a taste for coffee or tea.

[prisonchaplain]

No. I did not drink before I converted, and would not now.

I never developed a taste for coffee or tea.

You must have to hold your nose whenever you fly over or drive through Western Washington.

[pushka]

In 2001, just before I 'crashed' with my then alcoholism (I think I was on the borderline of being alcoholic, now I can take or leave drink as I wish, but then it was really difficult for me to leave it alone), I could tell I was going downhill fast with my drinking, and thought that the only way I could stop was to return to the LDS church, because then it wouldn't be my choice not to drink, I would have been instructed not to do so, and would feel bad if I didn't follow the instruction! Just my take on the WoW at the time...

Fortunately, following a bad head injury caused by my drinking at the time, I gradually reduced my drinking until now I only drink occasionally, and even now over Christmas, I'm only drinking any alcohol because I somehow think it's required of me, to get into the Christmas spirit!! Silly me, it hasn't helped me get into the spirit at all..in fact I've stopped myself from drinking much at all, because I've been a little down and don't want to make it worse...

I don't drink too much tea or coffee anymore, although I do appreciate their taste on the odd occasion that I do drink them. I've never smoked, and have only tried weed on occasions..by eating it rather than smoking it, and have had bad trips off it, so I don't go near that anymore...

[Ray]

If I didn't have or know about what is called the "word of wisdom", and instead I only heard from some doctors, or some other people who say the same thing, I would definitely be drinking other things.

I enjoyed beer and wine, and even hard liquors, before I became a member of the Church. And I also enjoyed coffee, and tea, occasionally. And in fact, I still enjoy the "soft" versions.

I started drinking Postem, and still drink it a lot, because I really missed the good flavors of coffee. Postem isn't as good, at least not in flavor, but it's close enough to satisfy me.

I also drink an O'douls, when I really miss beer, and I would still enjoy a beer, on occasion.

I haven't found a good substitute for the the flavor of wine, yet, and for now I simply settle for grape juice.

Oh, and I've never really cared for the taste of tobacco. I think a smoking pipe can smell good, though. :)

[Maureen]

...As for coffee and tea, why is it that those with Kidney stones/gallbladder stones are told to quit drinking coffee, tea, sodas that have caffine in them, and chocolate?? Yes they are - because those drinks contribute to and aggrivate the conditions...

Gallstone

Causes:

No clear relationship has been proven between diet and gallstone formation. However, low-fiber, high-cholesterol diets, and diets high in starchy foods have been suggested as contributing to gallstone formation. Other nutritional factors that may increase risk of gallstones include rapid weight loss, constipation, eating fewer meals per day, eating less fish, and low intakes of the nutrients folate, magnesium, calcium, and vitamin C. (J Am Coll Nutr 1997 Feb;16(1):88-95). On the other hand, coffee, wine, fish, and whole grain bread may decrease the risk of gallstones. (Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol 1996 June;8(6):585-93.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallstone

Kidney stone

Prevention:

Preventive strategies include dietary modifications and sometimes also taking drugs with the goal of reducing excretory load on the kidneys:[3]

· Drinking enough water to make 2 to 2.5 litres of urine per day.

· A diet low in protein, nitrogen and sodium intake.

· Restriction of oxalate-rich foods and maintaining an adequate intake of dietary calcium is recommended. There is equivocal evidence that calcium supplements increase the risk of stone formation, though calcium citrate appears to carry the lowest, if any, risk

· Taking drugs such as thiazides, potassium citrate, magnesium citrate and allopurinol depending on the cause of stone formation.

· Depending on the stone formation disease, vitamin B-6 and orthophosphate supplements may be helpful, although these treatments are generally reserved for those with Hyperoxaluria. Cellulose supplements have also shown potential for reducing kidney stones caused by hypercalciuria (excessive urinary calcium) although today other means are generally used as cellulose therapy is associated with significant side effects.

Certain foods may increase the risk of stones: spinach, rhubarb, chocolate, peanuts, cocoa, tomato juice, grapefruit juice, apple juice, soda (acidic and contains phosphorus), and berries (high levels of oxalate). In the United States, the South has the highest incidence of kidney stones, a region where sweet tea consumption is very common. Other drinks are associated with decreased risk of stones, including wine, lemonade and orange juice, the latter two of which are rich in citrate, a stone inhibitor.…

…Though caffeine does acutely increase urinary calcium excretion, several independent epidemiologic studies have shown that coffee intake overall is protective for stones….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stones

M.

[Guest MrsS]

I started drinking Postem, and still drink it a lot, because I really missed the good flavors of coffee. Postem isn't as good, at least not in flavor, but it's close enough to satisfy me.

< < < Ray, have you tried Pero? I grew up drinking coffee - as soon as I was weaned off the bottle of milk, I started drinking coffee. I love it. Postum tastes like burnt and scorched coffee - yet Pero only tastes that way if you use too much in a cup.

Pero is way cheaper too. I pay $5.24 for a 7 oz. canister and you get 130-135 servings. http://www.internaturalfoods.com/Pero/Pero.html

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

I started drinking Postem, and still drink it a lot, because I really missed the good flavors of coffee. Postem isn't as good, at least not in flavor, but it's close enough to satisfy me.

< < < Ray, have you tried Pero? I grew up drinking coffee - as soon as I was weaned off the bottle of milk, I started drinking coffee. I love it. Postum tastes like burnt and scorched coffee - yet Pero only tastes that way if you use too much in a cup.

Pero is way cheaper too. I pay $5.24 for a 7 oz. canister and you get 130-135 servings. http://www.internaturalfoods.com/Pero/Pero.html

But if your friends see you swilling pero, will they not assume you've broken the WoW? Might that not cause others to stumble? Might there not be some tension in the ward?

I say that only half-facetiously. I recall an adult Sunday school class discussing whether or not we should drink sparkling apple cider in public, since, to on-lookers, it might appear that we're drinking wine/champagne.

[Guest MrsS]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I started drinking Postem, and still drink it a lot, because I really missed the good flavors of coffee. Postem isn't as good, at least not in flavor, but it's close enough to satisfy me.

< < < Ray, have you tried Pero? I grew up drinking coffee - as soon as I was weaned off the bottle of milk, I started drinking coffee. I love it. Postum tastes like burnt and scorched coffee - yet Pero only tastes that way if you use too much in a cup.

Pero is way cheaper too. I pay $5.24 for a 7 oz. canister and you get 130-135 servings. http://www.internaturalfoods.com/Pero/Pero.html

But if your friends see you swilling pero, will they not assume you've broken the WoW? Might that not cause others to stumble? Might there not be some tension in the ward?

I say that only half-facetiously. I recall an adult Sunday school class discussing whether or not we should drink sparkling apple cider in public, since, to on-lookers, it might appear that we're drinking wine/champagne.

My co-workers did think that I was drinking coffee - so I offered them a cup also - they are now drinking Pero with me.

[shanstress70]

I love good coffee - actually am having a cup right now. :) To me there is nothing better! I don't feel bad about it one bit because I've read about so many health benefits. Although even if there were no benefits, I would still drink it because I love it THAT much. If it was clearly horrible for you, then I would reluctantly stop. I also love sweet iced tea, being a southern girl... I think they put that stuff in my baby bottle! I keep reading about the health benefits of that as well though. And yes, I'm aware that you can find either positive or negative things about coffee and tea's effects. But I have overwhelmingly found more positive things... thankfully.

I am not a big alcohol drinker, and never have been. I do drink socially ever few months or so. I love a good, cold Corona (or two) with a lime twist on a really hot day. I like the taste of red wine and drink it occasionally when I have a nice steak dinner out. I could easily do without all alcohol though.

Cigarettes disgust me. I smoked for several years as a teenager and young adult and could kick myself for doing that to my body, as I am very health-conscience these days. However, I keep reading that the effects of smoking go away quickly once you stop smoking.

I have never done drugs except for the occasional smoking of wacky-baccy, and I thoroughly enjoyed that!!! Those days are over though, and I'm 100% sure I'll never do that again.

I totally respect those who abstain for any reason, but since it has no impact on my salvation, I enjoy alcohol in moderation and coffee in excess.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

I started drinking Postem, and still drink it a lot, because I really missed the good flavors of coffee. Postem isn't as good, at least not in flavor, but it's close enough to satisfy me.

< < < Ray, have you tried Pero? I grew up drinking coffee - as soon as I was weaned off the bottle of milk, I started drinking coffee. I love it. Postum tastes like burnt and scorched coffee - yet Pero only tastes that way if you use too much in a cup.

Pero is way cheaper too. I pay $5.24 for a 7 oz. canister and you get 130-135 servings. http://www.internaturalfoods.com/Pero/Pero.html

I tried Pero, once. A friend gave me some to try. I didn't like it as much as I like Postum.

... maybe because I prefer the taste of burnt and scorched coffee

... or a more "rich, full-bodied taste".

[Jason]

Both of my grandfathers were huge alcoholics. My mother told me growing up that if I so much as touched alcohol, I would likely be an alcoholic for life.

She was wrong. I have maybe a drink a month at most. I got drunk one time four years ago, and have never wanted to experience that again. After two drinks Im buzzed, but not drunk. I feel relaxed and am done for the evening.

I can live without it as I did when I was LDS. It does not control me. I don't behave any differently intoxicated than I do sober. (well...maybe Im a bit funnier, or so I've been told.)

Social drinking is a blast. Sitting at home swigging beers is pointless IMO.

I've always loved the smell of Coffee, and after a very brief "adjusting" period, I now enjoy a cup every now and then. No addiction to that either.

Tea I enjoy when I can find a good quality cup. No addiction to that either.

So as "genetic" or "evil" as some would propound, Im either a genetic exception to the alcohol gene, or people abuse alcohol because they want to, not because they need to.

[babygirl]

No dont think i could... "for one it is a vile drink that turns even the most respectable men into complete scoundrals"

cant stand the smell of it eather, lol

[shanstress70]

No dont think i could... "for one it is a vile drink that turns even the most respectable men into complete scoundrals"

cant stand the smell of it eather, lol

One glass of wine with dinner turns men into scoundrels? Not sure who you're hanging out with!

[babygirl]

<div class='quotemain'>

No dont think i could... "for one it is a vile drink that turns even the most respectable men into complete scoundrals"

cant stand the smell of it eather, lol

One glass of wine with dinner turns men into scoundrels? Not sure who you're hanging out with!

its a quote from a movie...i was tryin to be funny...obviously it didnt work

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

No dont think i could... "for one it is a vile drink that turns even the most respectable men into complete scoundrals"

cant stand the smell of it eather, lol

One glass of wine with dinner turns men into scoundrels? Not sure who you're hanging out with!

its a quote from a movie...i was tryin to be funny...obviously it didnt work

Oh, sorry! Dirty Rotten Scoundrels?

[babygirl]

Oh, sorry! Dirty Rotten Scoundrels?

nope...here i'll finish it "for one it turns even the most respectable men into complet scoundrals and 2 that signal is over a thousand feet high the intire navie is out looking for me, do u even think theres the slightest chance they wont see it....."