How can you convince me?

[ThreeInOne]

If i were curious about the mormon faith, how can you convince me that the Mormon church is the true church of God?

Can you point to any scripture? Or give me any writing as evidence?

[skippy740]

Nope. We can't convince anyone. It's not our job.

That's the job of the Holy Spirit - who teaches us the things of God and brings all things to our remembrance.

[Anddenex]

skippy740 is correct.

We are not responsible in any way before the Lord to convince you. We are under responsibility to share and answer questions people do have.

It is the Holy Ghost that teaches every person on this earth the truth, John 14: 26. It is the responsibility of the hearer to do their due diligence, by humbling themselves, in seeking the Lord's will and not their own.

My first answer to your question, which comes with a question and an invitation. Have you read the Book of Mormon? I would pay special attention to Moroni 10: 3-5.

I would also pay attention to James 1:5, and how the Lord does ask us to ask him. Remember, when Jesus asked his disciples, apostles, who he was. Simon answered in a way that the Lord said something to this point, "Blessed art though Simon for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto you, but my Father which is in heaven."

It was not Jesus who convinced Simon, it was Heavenly Father's witness through the Holy Ghost. Simon new because God revealed it unto him.

We believe in living revelation, and living prophets. The Lord through his living prophets have declared that this is the Lord's true church.

However, as members we aren't here to convince you of anything, and if we try to convince you we would be much like Paul who stood before a man, don't remember his name and to lazy to look it up, who said "Almost convinced me to be a Christian."

As members we could try all day to convince you and we may come close, but it will never be convincing. The moment God convinces, it is hard to deny.

Best Regards.

[Backroads]

I have very little interest in convincing anyone. And, as said, that's not what we do. We may preach about (I'm sure you've heard of our missionaries) but we really don't try to prove much. You are perfectly welcome to read our particular books of scripture, if you like.

[NeuroTypical]

The only good reason to be a mormon, is you figure God wants you to be one. Something our faith does offer, is a roadmap on how to find out. Here's my story:

Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The first scripture promises a slowly evolving process from faith to knowledge, through the assumption that if it looks good, and acts good, and produces good fruit, then it is good. Not really enough to base a testimony on, in my opinion. But Moroni promised something else - "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.". That sounded a little more like it. So, when I looked at the verse, it laid out my side of the bargain:

1- "And when ye shall receive these things" - Before it would work, I had to read the Book of Mormon. But more than read it, to "receive" it. I had to internalize it - deeply reading for meaning, more than just a cursory glance. Not a critical reading, looking for faults. I had to read it, with the notion that it very well might be exactly what it claimes to be - scripture. True. The word of God. A literal history of people who literally lived.

2- "I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true"

So, I had to pray. Not just pray, but pray in the name of Christ. That means, I had to be worthy of his name. The guy who owns The Simsons brand, will let any amount of stupid garbage bear the name - Bart Simpson toothpaste, cheap flimsy Homer travel mugs, stupid T-shirts make out of inferior materials, whatever. But Jesus is more choosy. If you are going to bear his name, you need to be following his teachings.

This is possible to do, without actually believing in him. After all, I follow some of Sun-Tzu's "art of war" notions, but I don't believe he is a god, and I also don't share his faith. The best advice for a happy marriage, the notion that I've used as a foundation for mine, came from a drunk Tongan I met in an alleyway one night. I follow that advice daily, yet I'm not a big fan of the guy who gave it to me.

So, to take upon myself the name of Christ, I had to do and be a couple of main things:

* Not sinning

* Loving my neighbor

* Desiring to know a God I could love

I did not have to be perfect, I figured it was a matter of heart. It wasn't how close to my destination I was, it mattered only that my compass was pointed in the right direction, and I was following it. Yes, there was some doubt about what the compass was pointing to - was it true north, or just wishful thinking. But that didn't matter - I was just trying to satisfy this part of the scripture - and be able to pray in the name of Christ.

So, I prayed. I prayed nightly, starting about halfway through the book. I prayed fervently. My prayers were short and simple: "Dear Heavenly Father, if thou exist, thou knowest my heart. Thou knowest I am sincere. I desire to know of the truthfulness of this work. Please show it to me. In the name of thy son, Jesus Christ, amen". Simple, plain, sincere, over and over again.

3- "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,"

Ok - 3 requirements - and I had to have all 3 of them. In years past, I had read the BoM and prayed in the name of Christ, and got nothing. I was missing real intent - I figured I wouldn't get an answer, and praying was a way of proving my guess true.

It's about where my heart is. It needs to be sincere, not with an ulterior motive, burdened by unrepented of sin, or trying to get something else out of the experience. My intent had to be true. No faith, no promise.

I can't impress enough on everyone, the importance of these 3 items. They're related, but if you are missing one, don't be expecting anything. If you are having a hard time figuring out where you are on these 3, you're probably not there.

Throughout the process, I was comfortable with my part of the bargain. It was like showing up for a test being very, very well prepared - there's a confidence based on the fact that you know what you're doing. I wasn't lying to myself, or bending any rules, or figuring out the least I could do to satisfy the bare minimum - I was there, and there solidly.

I did not believe in God - but I didn't have to. I just had to want to. I was not setting aside doubts - they held the center stage.

4- "He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

So, what can I say - it happened.

[slamjet]

It's more of a case of what are you willing to do to find out than waiting for someone to convince you. There's more meaning, appreciation and commitment in the former than the latter.

[JosephP]

If i were curious about the mormon faith, how can you convince me that the Mormon church is the true church of God?

Can you point to any scripture? Or give me any writing as evidence?

The evidence that the church is true is exactly the same evidence that God exists. Simply get on your knees, ask in sincere prayer to know the truth, and it will be revealed to you.

---

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (New Testament, James, Chapter 1)

[ThreeInOne]

Thanks for the replies.

Let me start by saying i would disagree with some of you already. It is our job as Christians to try to convince people to believe. (2 Timothy 3:14, Hebrews 6:9, Romans 14:5)

With regards to the Book of Mormon. How can we take it as true if we don't see a prophesy of it in the Gosples?

[JudoMinja]

"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them" (2 Timothy 3:14)

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak" (Hebrews 6:9)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" (Romans 14:5)

Umm... I don't see how any of these scriptures say it is our job to convince others to believe....

We are to share, yes. To proclaim the gospel, yes. To bring good tidings, yes. To speak of Christ, preach of Christ, and rejoice in Christ, yes.

But convince people? .... of anything?

That's not our job. That is the job of the Holy Spirit who may use our preaching to speak to another's spirit and testify to them of the truth.

[skippy740]

Thanks for the replies.

Let me start by saying i would disagree with some of you already. It is our job as Christians to try to convince people to believe. (2 Timothy 3:14, Hebrews 6:9, Romans 14:5)

With regards to the Book of Mormon. How can we take it as true if we don't see a prophesy of it in the Gosples?

The way you are using the word "convince" can be interpreted as forced. Forcing others to follow a path is not the way of Christ... but of the Adversary.

Article of Faith 11: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

There are various scriptures in the Bible that talk about the "Stick of Joseph". You might want to take a look at those.

[JosephP]

Thanks for the replies.

Let me start by saying i would disagree with some of you already. It is our job as Christians to try to convince people to believe. (2 Timothy 3:14, Hebrews 6:9, Romans 14:5)

With regards to the Book of Mormon. How can we take it as true if we don't see a prophesy of it in the Gosples?

It is our job to spread the gospel, not convince anyone who doesn't want to believe that they should. If your not willing to pray to gain a testimony of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Book of Mormon then there isn't much anyone can do.

Right now you remind me of the atheist who endless repeats, prove to me that God exists. It's a matter of gaining your own spiritual testimony. That is enough proof for the millions of people who did pray and gain a testimony of the restoration.

The only proof of its truthfulness is in the lives of the millions of Latter Day Saints who are striving to live a Christlike life. By their fruits you shall know them, not by physical evidence.

Edited October 24, 2012 by JosephP

[slamjet]

Thanks for the replies.

Let me start by saying i would disagree with some of you already. It is our job as Christians to try to convince people to believe. (2 Timothy 3:14, Hebrews 6:9, Romans 14:5)

With regards to the Book of Mormon. How can we take it as true if we don't see a prophesy of it in the Gosples?

Then the real question is what are you looking for?

[Anddenex]

With regards to the Book of Mormon. How can we take it as true if we don't see a prophesy of it in the Gosples?

JudoMinja answered your question perfectly with regard to the scriptures provided.

Since you feel it is your job to convince people, I believe you now have a responsibility to convince me where in scripture it mentions that something must be prophesied of in the Gospels to be true? I have never read any verse that specifies such.

Our invitation to the world, read the Book of Mormon, study it for yourself, and apply Moroni's promise found in Moroni 10: 3-5.

Best Regards.

[ThreeInOne]

"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them" (2 Timothy 3:14)

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak" (Hebrews 6:9)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" (Romans 14:5)

Umm... I don't see how any of these scriptures say it is our job to convince others to believe....

We are to share, yes. To proclaim the gospel, yes. To bring good tidings, yes. To speak of Christ, preach of Christ, and rejoice in Christ, yes.

But convince people? .... of anything?

That's not our job. That is the job of the Holy Spirit who may use our preaching to speak to another's spirit and testify to them of the truth.

See also Acts 1:3

Hypothetical question for you; if I'm an atheist and I ask you if there is a God, what are you going to tell me?

Was Jesus on earth not trying to convince people to believe?

It's our job to convince people to believe in The Lord. It's not by our doing that people become convinced.

Just like if I read the Book of Mormon and pray for that burning in the bosom

[NeuroTypical]

Let me start by saying i would disagree with some of you already.

Just a reminder, the purpose of this board is for LDS folk to talk about what we believe and why. You asked a question, we answered. This is not a debate or argument board.

If you want to debate or argue with LDS folks, that's totally fine - but you'll have to find another board. I can suggest the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board

With regards to the Book of Mormon. How can we take it as true if we don't see a prophesy of it in the Gosples?

I'd refer you to all those posts about how we received a personal witness from the Holy Ghost.

[Anddenex]

See also Acts 1:3

Hypothetical question for you; if I'm an atheist and I ask you if there is a God, what are you going to tell me?

Was Jesus on earth not trying to convince people to believe?

It's our job to convince people to believe in The Lord. It's not by our doing that people become convinced.

If an athiest ask questions, we share what we know to be true. We don't seek to convince, nor did the Savior. We teach, we prophesy, and we write so that people may know and then seek a witness themselves.

It appears your word for "convince" is what we would call share, invite, teach, visit, chasten if necessary.

Just like if I read the Book of Mormon and pray for that burning in the bosom

This last statement reveals more about your heart than any other statement you have mentioned.

No one mentioned a burning in the bosom, and I have never felt what you are speaking about. I have had a witness from the Holy Ghost, however the anti-Mormon thread "burning in the bosom" is foreign to me.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Anddenex

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks for the replies.

Let me start by saying i would disagree with some of you already. It is our job as Christians to try to convince people to believe. (2 Timothy 3:14, Hebrews 6:9, Romans 14:5)

Believe what though? That God is? That Jesus is the Messiah? The need to repent? Not sure scriptures ever tell us we should convince people of which church to join.

With regards to the Book of Mormon. How can we take it as true if we don't see a prophesy of it in the Gosples?

I believe that a good portion of the BoM is said to have predated the New Testament.

[ThreeInOne]

If an athiest ask questions, we share what we know to be true. We don't seek to convince, nor did the Savior. We teach, we prophesy, and we write so that people may know and then seek a witness themselves.

It appears your word for "convince" is what we would call share, invite, teach, visit, chasten if necessary.

This last statement reveals more about your heart than any other statement you have mentioned.

No one mentioned a burning in the bosom, and I have never felt what you are speaking about. I have had a witness from the Holy Ghost, however the anti-Mormon thread "burning in the bosom" is foreign to me.

Our Lord had to convince his disciples who he was when he rose from the dead. You think if they wouldn't have believed him, he wouldn't have tried to convince him? (John 20:24-29)

Is the "burning in the bosom" anti-mormon because its untrue?

[ThreeInOne]

Is there ant scripture that says we should not convince people to believe?

[slamjet]

Is there ant scripture that says we should not convince people to believe?

Luke 11: 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

We can present it, but it's up to the individual to get the answer.

[JosephP]

Is there ant scripture that says we should not convince people to believe?

It appears to me that you simply aren't listening to a single thing being said to you. My perception is that you are here to beat a one note anti-Mormon drum.

If I misjudged, than I am a fault, but since I don't think I am mistaken, let me wish you, in all sincerity, have a nice life.

[skippy740]

Is there ant scripture that says we should not convince people to believe?

You asked.

D&C 121:38

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

[Anddenex]

Our Lord had to convince his disciples who he was when he rose from the dead. You think if they wouldn't have believed him, he wouldn't have tried to convince him? (John 20:24-29)

This is a good question. The premise though appears to be incorrect in association with the verses provided. The verse represents doubting Thomas, who was first told of the risen Lord by the other disciples, by which he replied, "I will not believe until I have seen" (paraphrased obviously).

By which the Lord, after showing himself and allowing Thomas to touch him, said,

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Wouldn't it be nice if all of us could be "convinced" as Thomas was, by actually seeing the Lord and touching his scars?

Alas, we are not, thus we rely on the promise given to the disciples John 14: 26, and the promise within the Book of Mormon Moroni 10: 3-5.

Is the "burning in the bosom" anti-mormon because its untrue?

An anti-Mormon statement doesn't need to be untrue to be anti-Mormon. There are plenty anti-Mormon statements which are true.

As I specified, the "burning in the bosom" is foreign to me. I have never experienced it.

[MorningStar]

There are scriptures that support the church being true, but that usually just leads to an argument about interpretation and you go round and round in circles.

[ThreeInOne]

Believe what though? That God is? That Jesus is the Messiah? The need to repent? Not sure scriptures ever tell us we should convince people of which church to join.

I believe that a good portion of the BoM is said to have predated the New Testament.

If you see the original post you will see what I asked to be convinced of..

To answer your first question, all thee above.

Scripture tells us a church was established in Matthew 16:18 and then later in chapter 18:17, he talks more about "the church".

1 church, not church(es). That issue doesn't exist until the Protestant reformation in 1517

Can you show evidence to your claim that the BoM predated the New Testament?