what next? discovered husband viewing pornography

[Dravin]

One aspect I can see skewing addiction numbers for heavily religious individuals (whose religions prohibit pornography) is that if one isn't addicted, if they can just take it or leave it, with the religious mores against it they leave it. One wouldn't necessarily expect this to skew the per capital addiction rate, but one would expect it to skew the ratio of addicts to non-addicted users in the religious populations.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Dravin

[Vort]

You might be right. I wonder though (Eternal Consequences aside as they're probably committing plenty of other sins as well), if they're addicted, but both think of porn as just entertainment, not a "bad thing" as you mention, what's the harm? If you substitute "meth", or any addictive substance really, for porn, you can't say there is no harm. For the couple above, porn use just becomes another variable, like (to use stereotypical examples), a couple divorcing because the husband works too much or the wife spends too much.

Pornography consumption destroys the spirit. This is not merely an "in-the-next-life-you'll-be-sorry" effect. We're Mormons; we don't differentiate between spiritual damage and damage in the here and now. Spiritual damage always causes damage in the here and now.

A couple that consumes pornography will be weaker, and their marriage weaker, than if they did not.

[Brother_Anon]

Pornography consumption destroys the spirit. This is not merely an "in-the-next-life-you'll-be-sorry" effect. We're Mormons; we don't differentiate between spiritual damage and damage in the here and now. Spiritual damage always causes damage in the here and now.

A couple that consumes pornography will be weaker, and their marriage weaker, than if they did not.

I think that's a rather large brush you're painting with. However, since *all* sin causes spiritual damage, we all face uphill battles. I just don't think that agreed upon porn use, by a couple that doesn't view it as sinful, is as destructive as you seem to be painting it. Certainly not more destructive than a husband who spends 80+ hours a week at the office or the wife who hides $50,000 in credit card bills. Both are sinful and both weaken the marriage. Porn isn't a boogie-man in a class by itself, and, in the situation outlined above, may have less of an impact on the marriage than the overworked husband or spendthrift wife.

Is it sinful? Of course it is! But we need to stop the overreaction and deal with it like any other sin, otherwise we're just going to keep giving it more power than it warrants.

[Guest]

I can't think of a lot of sins that so efficiently destroy people and families. It shouldn't be minimized, either.

[Vort]

I think that's a rather large brush you're painting with. However, since *all* sin causes spiritual damage, we all face uphill battles. I just don't think that agreed upon porn use, by a couple that doesn't view it as sinful, is as destructive as you seem to be painting it. Certainly not more destructive than a husband who spends 80+ hours a week at the office or the wife who hides $50,000 in credit card bills. Both are sinful and both weaken the marriage. Porn isn't a boogie-man in a class by itself, and, in the situation outlined above, may have less of an impact on the marriage than the overworked husband or spendthrift wife.

Is it sinful? Of course it is! But we need to stop the overreaction and deal with it like any other sin, otherwise we're just going to keep giving it more power than it warrants.

Do you think an agreed-upon "open marriage" is as destructive as 80+-hour work weeks or hiding debt? Do you think consensual polyamory is as destructive?

Pornography consumption is something along the lines of an open marriage or polyamory. It may not be the same thing, and it may not be as destructive, but it tends toward that type of thing. I cannot see how pornography consumption might not be destructive to a marriage. By its nature, it is opposite to what a marriage is supposed to be.

[Brother_Anon]

No one is minimizing it. At the same time I would put forth that alcohol, drug addiction, gambling, and sleeping around have ruined more marriages, inside and outside communities of faith, than porn.

Again, porn isn't being celebrated, in any way. Rather, there are many other things which are often more destructive. to more marriages, among all peoples.

[Vort]

No one is minimizing it. At the same time I would put forth that alcohol, drug addiction, gambling, and sleeping around have ruined more marriages, inside and outside communities of faith, than porn.

Again, porn isn't being celebrated, in any way. Rather, there are many other things which are often more destructive. to more marriages, among all peoples.

Even if you are right, I'm not sure what your point is. A bullet to the face is probably more destructive to marriage than any of those things, but that doesn't mean those things aren't bad or shouldn't be avoided.

[Backroads]

Would it be fair to say that porn is simply on par, or in the same category, as all other forms of cheating? (I would say this even if the porn were approved by the couple--I've heard stories).

[Vort]

Would it be fair to say that porn is simply on par, or in the same category, as all other forms of cheating? (I would say this even if the porn were approved by the couple--I've heard stories).

At the risk of sounding self-contradictory (which I am not), I don't believe so. Pornography usage can certainly be destructive -- I suspect that's true by definition -- and can even destroy a marriage. But no reasonable person can say that, as a general rule, viewing pornography is equivalent to having sex with another person. It is not equivalent. There is a wide gulf between the two things.

In teaching a higher law, Jesus said that a man that looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. But the implicit subtext is that committing adultery in one's heart is not nearly as bad as committing adultery in one's bed. Jesus was saying, in effect, "You have already received and perhaps even mastered the child-level law that says you shouldn't have sex with people you aren't married to. Now I'm inviting you to go to the next level and refuse even to lust after people." But the clear implication is that lusting after people -- committing adultery in one's heart, as the Lord put it -- is not at the same level as actually committing adultery.

[Brother_Anon]

Even if you are right, I'm not sure what your point is. A bullet to the face is probably more destructive to marriage than any of those things, but that doesn't mean those things aren't bad or shouldn't be avoided.

My point is that within the church, porn use has been elevated to a sin at least as bad as adultery, if not worse. Where even the suspicion of a husband viewing porn is met with extreme horror, fountains of tears, and thoughts of divorce.

And as long as this is the case, those who view it will continue to hide it, falling deeper into shame and guilt, afraid that if their secret is discovered their lives will be ruined in ways almost no other sin would cause. If a wife is more concerned with a husband watching porn once a week than she is with him spending Friday night in a bar, something is wrong.

Both are sins, but only one of those will, on average, send a wife to the bishop's office or have her friends suggesting she needs to leave her husband for the safety of the children.

[Vort]

My point is that within the church, porn use has been elevated to a sin at least as bad as adultery, if not worse. Where even the suspicion of a husband viewing porn is met with extreme horror, fountains of tears, and thoughts of divorce.

And as long as this is the case, those who view it will continue to hide it, falling deeper into shame and guilt, afraid that if their secret is discovered their lives will be ruined in ways almost no other sin would cause. If a wife is more concerned with a husband watching porn once a week than she is with him spending Friday night in a bar, something is wrong.

Both are sins, but only one of those will, on average, send a wife to the bishop's office or have her friends suggesting she needs to leave her husband for the safety of the children.

If things are as you portray above -- if women really are more horrified that their husbands may have viewed pornography than if he had partied with the boys -- then maybe you're right. But I still think it's a bad idea to suggest in any degree that pornography is not a big deal. Not that you have necessarily done so, but that's the general feeling I get.

[Brother_Anon]

It is a big deal, but no other sin gets the 3rd hour of church devoted to them. Porn is also the only sin specifically called out as something over which a girl should dump a fiancé.

Again, porn = big deal. Just not the biggest deal.

[Vort]

It is a big deal, but no other sin gets the 3rd hour of church devoted to them.

Maybe that's because getting drunk at the bar or having sex with the secretary simply are not major concerns for most LDS men, but apparently pornography consumption is.

[missionary0204]

One issue with pornography is that it warps the mind and creates impressions and thoughts that even time can't completely take away. Many face the desire for more and more stimulation. What else is there? Just like any drug or addiction, you will always have those who will take it further. The Book of Mormon does refer to sexual sin as one of the most severe.

Alma 39:5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?

There are many examples throughout the Bible & BOM that support this verse. I personally believe that sexual sin causes more damage than just about anything else I can think of. Pornography is not the grocest of sexual sin, but it sure is a big deal.

Elder Christiansen, a general authority in the first quorum of the seventy, spoke during stake conference when I was serving a mission and I will never forget what I heard him say. "If you look at pornography, you are on the road to a temple sealing cancelation." He repeated this TWO additional times to make sure it sunk in. I have thought about this quote many times over the years. My personal opinion/feeling after much thought is that one will lose his wife to another if he does not lick the problem after having made sacred covenants in the temple (This is not doctrine to my knowledge).

To add my opinion to the statements above about viewing porn and coitus with another woman being the same degree of sexual sin, ABSOLUTELY NOT! Many men that I have spoken with do not have any trouble with desires to actually sleep with other women. They just seek satisfaction, but there are always those who desire more or it leads to more severe actions.

[trubludru]

Hmm...

We have been counseled repeatedly by the leaders of the church and especially recall Pres. Hinckley's counsel to avoid pornography as the sleazy vile plague it is. It clearly is a big deal as given by the number of general conference talks where we have been told to avoid it or to seek repentance if struggling with it.

There are clearly several reason it is a big deal: It is highly additicive, it mocks the sacredness of sexuality between husband and wife, it causes us to lose the Spirit, etc, etc for these reasons and others it can also become a gateway to other sins and problems such as lying, fornication, abuse, etc.

But the problem Bro. Anon describing seems to me to be tied in a bit with the "good girl" syndrome afflicting some people in the church. In a situation where sexual relations are already viewed as only a necessary evil then it becomes easy for me to understand a spouse going way overboard when a pornography problem is either disclosed or discovered. This isn't to say it is justified on the part of the offending spouse or that the other doesn't have the right to feel hurt or betrayed.

I suppose it sort of turns into a WWJD moment, if the spouse who was been viewing pornography (presumably the husband in most instances) is truly repentant and desires to get out of the mire should you do your best to help or dwell on how much you have been hurt and basically leave him (literally) or withdraw letting him face the problem alone. It isn't any easy situation and even if the husband is repentent, it seems that it is very easy to succumb to tempation again, it will likely be something that will take a life time of vigilance to overcome.

In my very honest opinion, I don't think pornography = fornication or adultery, however it can be their closely related cousin. I think the problem is, that some (especially those with a "good girl" mindset) interpret things as someone who has sinned with pornography as having literally committed adultery and therefore they are justified in ending a marriage. I cringe at using this analogy but it is sort of like saying someone who smokes tobacco is a meth addict. I think that while it is very black and white as to the right and wrong....porn is clearly wrong, however it is more nuanced than just saying pornography = full on adultery, and justifies the ending of a marriage.

Personally I think Satan has been quite clever in this area. Convince one spouse that sex is at least somewhat sinful or dirty, even in marriage (typically the wife) and convince the other spouse that they aren't really hurting anyone by looking at pornography, (even if they feel guilty about it) they are just doing what makes them feel good (typically the husband). What better way to break up marriages and ruin families?

Edited December 18, 2012 by trubludru

[MorningStar]

I think when women contemplate divorce over pornography, it's the deception that is the most hurtful to them. The typical story is that he has been addicted since he was a kid, kept it a secret, went on a mission, married his wife in the temple, blessed their babies, and then she finds out on her own, not through confession, that he is looking at porn and has been long before they met. It leaves her feeling like the whole marriage was built on lies and is very hard to recover from. Women handle it much better when their husbands are upfront about it.

I'll never forget this story my best friend told me. She got together with a couple and when the subject came up, the husband said having a computer with the Internet is like having a magazine rack in your living room. He said one day when his wife was gone, he got curious and started looking at porn. He felt so horrible, he told her immediately when she got home. She handled it quite well and they talked about what they could do to make it less of a temptation.

Honesty is the best hope of staying together.

[Backroads]

Porn is also the only sin specifically called out as something over which a girl should dump a fiancé.

I think I can understand this. Porn may be addictive in a way truly getting around and sleeping with others can't be.

Husband has a buddy who got a girl pregnant in his teens. Baby was put up for adoption, the two wen their separate ways, buddy did not get to go on a mission, but later married his charming wife in the temple.

As far as I care to ponder on the subject, I trust buddy has repented and this was a one-time mistake from youth.

But porn, on the other hand... as has been said, that can keep creeping up and creeping up...

Yes, I would probably suggest to a girl (or guy) to break off an engagement if there were a history of porn.

[Vort]

I think I can understand this. Porn may be addictive in a way truly getting around and sleeping with others can't be.

Let's see. Looking at a picture of a nekkid woman versus actually having sex with a nekkid woman...

No, I don't think I believe that pornography may be more addictive than real, honest-to-goodness sex.

[Guest]

http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/50650-pornography-sexual-sins-reference-quotes-talks.html

[Brother_Anon]

I think I can understand this. Porn may be addictive in a way truly getting around and sleeping with others can't be.

Husband has a buddy who got a girl pregnant in his teens. Baby was put up for adoption, the two wen their separate ways, buddy did not get to go on a mission, but later married his charming wife in the temple.

As far as I care to ponder on the subject, I trust buddy has repented and this was a one-time mistake from youth.

But porn, on the other hand... as has been said, that can keep creeping up and creeping up...

Yes, I would probably suggest to a girl (or guy) to break off an engagement if there were a history of porn.

I think an allowance needs to be made for stupid youthful mistakes.

More fitting examples I think would be: the serial philanderer, the guy who proposes to every girl he dates, or the 35 year old guy who's never been married. I would be more concerned for my daughter in those cases than some who has looked at porn. (Granted, if said porn watcher looked every day for hours on end, so much so he was having trouble finishing school or keeping a job, well, that's a different story.)

[Sali]

Is Porn the Same as Adultery?

"While men struggle to understand why women place pornography in the same category with adultery, we must try; or, at the very least, accept the testimony of women at face value. For women, whose intimacy rests upon a foundation of mental connection, the effect of pornography on marriage is very much the same as outright adultery. It destroys intimacy. It betrays trust. And, even when undiscovered, viewing pornography creates emotional distance. In the end, women suffer the same physical, psychological, and spiritual anguish men experience as a result of adultery."

I thought this article was brilliant. I couldn't have said any of it better myself. Looking at Pornography is taking something away from the woman and breaking sacred covenants. In a woman's eyes, it can be akin to adultery, it is a big deal.

[Backroads]

Let's see. Looking at a picture of a nekkid woman versus actually having sex with a nekkid woman...

No, I don't think I believe that pornography may be more addictive than real, honest-to-goodness sex.

Except pornography is, on average, a heck of a lot easier to get to. May not be the best thing on the menu, but there's plenty of it and it's easier to access.

[Vort]

In the end, women suffer the same physical, psychological, and spiritual anguish men experience as a result of adultery."

I don't believe it. Not to justify pornography usage, of course, but to equate it with adultery is simply not a good fit. At an extreme level, it might eventually amount to the same thing, but as a general rule I do not buy the idea that pornography = adultery or that the emotional/physical/psychological/spiritual effect is identical.

[MorningStar]

I'm not sure how much worse a woman's reaction can be than crying every day for months on end, feeling like someone died, hardly eating, not wanting to leave the house, anxiety attacks, and even vomiting. From what I can tell, it seems to be the same response that women have to adultery. Actually, women often suspect that their husbands have done that too when they go to great lengths to hide their behavior.

[Vort]

I'm not sure how much worse a woman's reaction can be than crying every day for months on end, feeling like someone died, hardly eating, not wanting to leave the house, anxiety attacks, and even vomiting. From what I can tell, it seems to be the same response that women have to adultery. Actually, women often suspect that their husbands have done that too when they go to great lengths to hide their behavior.

I can speak only from my own understanding of principles and reasoning, MorningStar. If a woman reacts to news of her husband's pornography usage in exactly the same way that she would react to news of his sexual infidelity, that suggests that she considers the two events equally awful. I see two possibilities:

1. She is right. Looking at porn is exactly as evil as having sex with another woman.

2. She is wrong. She is vastly overreacting.

I don't see any other possibilities besides the two I have listed above. And since as a general rule I disbelieve #1 -- evil though it may be, viewing pornography is a completely different order of magnitude of sin than having sex with another woman -- the only other possibility is #2. Which means that while pornography consumption is the husband's problem, to be dealt with by him, overreacting to that news is the wife's problem, to be dealt with by her.