Why is porn a serious problem? (thread split)

[Guest]

So we're going to tell members that just a little bit is okay? What, as long as it's infrequent enough, soft enough? Where are the lines?

It's okay to steal a few supplies from your employer.

Don't worry about kissing someone you're attracted to. No harm done; it's not like it's sex.

Smack your family around, as long as you don't leave a mark.

Having a cocktail or two at a work function is fine, as long as you don't get drunk. It's better than offending someone by not drinking at all.

[Just_A_Guy]

I guess my whole point is that we make such a big deal out of it, that when a wife finds out that her husband looked at porn - no matter whether its 1 image or multiple, Sports Illustrated Swimsuit girls or raunchy hardcore images, that she has been taught to think 'I married a pervert, the marriage is over (or at least in big trouble)' and that's really not always the case.

I just don't believe its always a problem and that's someone with actual experience talking.

I actually agree with you that to some degree in the Church we have allowed a "culture of shame" to develop with regard to porn, and it's not always what you'd call helpful. (Not that shame isn't useful and doesn't have its place, but that it can grow to a point where it is actually debilitating and puts porn users and their families into a downward spiral.) There must be a happy medium somewhere where we can condemn the sin without deterring the sinner from seeking repentance, and I'm not sure as a Church that we've found that cultural balance just yet where porn is concerned.

Sure, porn won't destroy every marriage. Alcohol won't turn everyone into a useless member of society. Cheating on financial transactions won't always get you caught or cause identifiable harm to another party. That kid with Down's syndrome may not know that you're actually ridiculing him instead of praising him.

But the bottom line is that through the Gospel we have made certain covenants with God, and those covenants deserve to be honored for their own sake independently of their temporal effect.

[Guest]

Sure, porn won't destroy every marriage. Alcohol won't turn everyone into a useless member of society. Cheating on financial transactions won't always get you caught or cause identifiable harm to another party. That kid with Down's syndrome may not know that you're actually ridiculing him instead of praising him.

But the bottom line is that through the Gospel we have made certain covenants with God, and those covenants deserve to be honored for their own sake independently of their temporal effect.

This is why you're a lawyer, and I'm just a grumpy old bitty on the Internet. Well said.

[Windseeker]

How can any honest person with a conscience fail to see how viewing porn is aiding and abetting an industry that ruins both the lives of those who participate as well as the lives of those who view it?

When one views pornography they are an Accomplice whether they like it or not, in the best case rewarding those who sin and in the worst case destroying someone’s purity, innocence, freedom and choices in life. Is it worth it?

Edited November 14, 2012 by Windseeker

[MrShorty]

So we're going to tell members that just a little bit is okay? What, as long as it's infrequent enough, soft enough? Where are the lines?

With porn, I don't know -- the line we've drawn is complete abstinence. But it seems there are many questions of right or wrong, good or bad where we struggle with "where is the line."

the WoW allows meat in moderation -- but how much is too much?

we haven't called for complete abstinence from caffeinated soda pop -- where do we draw the line?

too much video gaming is bad (maybe addictive), but we don't call for abstinence from video games -- how to judge?

[Backroads]

But what benefit is there of a "little bit of porn"?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

that she has been taught to think 'I married a pervert, the marriage is over (or at least in big trouble)' and that's really not always the case.

I just don't believe its always a problem and that's someone with actual experience talking.

I think you are missing the big picture. For women generally, it is not "I married a pervert" it's "why is he cheating on me, doesn't he love me anymore, was I not beautiful enough for him"?

Most women are going to feel hurt and betrayed if they find out their husband is looking at porn. It is not something we are "taught" it is just who we are. I understand you are saying your wife doesn't think that way, fine, but most do. When two people agree to be in a monogamous relationship, that means just the two of them. Pornography violates that. As women we do, generally speaking, take that very personally. We feel rejected. We feel that somehow we were not "enough" for our husband.

As to your point, "that's someone with actual experience talking". Porn is so common you can't really think you are the only one in this discussion with "real experience". Come on. You have a different perspective that is all.

And no, thank heavens, my husband has not had that issue, because with my other issues I don't think I could take it because to me porn is such a violation of the women involved. I understand your argument intellectually, but I'm telling you emotionally, if my husband looked at porn I would feel utterly betrayed and rejected, and two I would never feel "safe" with him again because he objectified women in that manner. I can put the religious aspect aside and still feel that it objectifies women, and I would be crushed by it.

I understand intellectually that men claim it is physical and not emotional. All I can say about that is, whatever. For me as the wife it would be emotional, and I am pretty sure it would be a deal breaker for our marraige. I am absolutely not saying that it should be a deal breaker for every couple that deals with this. I am saying that with my past issues, that would be a deal breaker for me. I am just trying to help you see that what you and your wife feel or felt about it is one perspective, mine is one perspective, others have other perspectives....each person/couple may look at this slightly differently...but I think MOST women are going to see it as a betrayal, a very painful one, on some level. It is really not about religion it is about monogamy.

Edited November 14, 2012 by LiterateParakeet
spelling, grammar, typos...you name it

[Guest]

Just wanted to mention: Lots of women engage in porn as well...

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Just wanted to mention: Lots of women engage in porn as well...

Every couple is different, but I can guarantee that if I engaged in porn, my husband would be devastated because he would view it just as if I had had an affair. He would see it as I do, as I violation of our promise to one another to be monogamous.

[Backroads]

Parakeet is right. I've never had to deal with a porn issue with my husband, but if I were in such a situation, my first thought would not be "Oh, no! He's sinning by breaking a specific instruction from church leaders!" but "He doesn't think very highly of me so I must not be sexy/sexual/pretty enough for him!"

I don't know, maybe what women think men are thinking is completely off. My husband (once again, not a supporter of pornography) has explained it as "it's simply... sex. It wouldn't be a comparison, it would just be sex, and men like sex."

From what I know of men, I think that's reasonable... but it still does not change how I couldn't help but feel. And it still wouldn't be a very good defense of porn.

But the idea that "the only reason women don't like porn is because they were told not to" doesn't jive with how my mind and the minds of many other women work.

[Guest]

Parakeet is right. I've never had to deal with a porn issue with my husband, but if I were in such a situation, my first thought would not be "Oh, no! He's sinning by breaking a specific instruction from church leaders!" but "He doesn't think very highly of me so I must not be sexy/sexual/pretty enough for him!"

My first thought would be... "What an idiot!".

[mnn727]

But what benefit is there of a "little bit of porn"?

How can I put this without offending..... It can be educational and can get things started.

Look people, I am not advocating for porn, I have not looked for/at it in a couple decades but I am merely saying that that the emphasis we put on how terrible it is may not be entirely justified.

I think the best argument against it is, as someone said previously, we make certain Covenants and this is one of them (under Chastity).

We've made it so shameful of a thing that (primarily) men hide it rather than seeing it as another sin to overcome. They then feel guilty and are afraid to discuss it cause they know how big of a deal we've made it, and its starts a big loop and very seldom ends well.

[mnn727]

Another thought is I really don't think we've given families a reasonable response to finding out someone in the family is viewing porn.

How many threads are started by wives here about this asking 'What do I do now?'

What about the wives that don't have anyone to talk to or are so ashamed they are afraid to say they don't know what to do.

A couple in my ward whom I home taught got divorced over this, we had no clue there was even an issue, there were no talks with the Bishop, no talks with us the Home teachers, she found out about the porn and her family told her to divorce him, period. Being a young wife, born in the Church, believed her marriage and her shot at the CK was done. With some proper counseling they might have worked through it, but it was so shameful to everyone involved, no one would talk about it until I finally talked with the father.

Edited November 14, 2012 by mnn727

[Backroads]

How can I put this without offending..... It can be educational and can get things started.

(I'm actually satisfied with your other answer, but I had to comment on this with my own meandering thoughts that are neither here nor there)

I have to wonder why the average couple* needs help "getting started". I've heard this reason for porn before, and that's always the question that comes to mind. It's like sex is but a duty, the people involved aren't interesting enough, and you need outside help to get worked up in order to tolerate each other.

*Yes, couples with sex problems aren't unheard of.

[Guest]

How can I put this without offending..... It can be educational and can get things started.

Look people, I am not advocating for porn, I have not looked for/at it in a couple decades but I am merely saying that that the emphasis we put on how terrible it is may not be entirely justified.

I think the best argument against it is, as someone said previously, we make certain Covenants and this is one of them (under Chastity).

We've made it so shameful of a thing that (primarily) men hide it rather than seeing it as another sin to overcome. They then feel guilty and are afraid to discuss it cause they know how big of a deal we've made it, and its starts a big loop and very seldom ends well.

Let me give you something to chew on...

We believe in the Law of Chastity right? I mean - we believe that sex in public is immoral?

Okay, so you have a problem - you can't get it on with your wife. So, you turn on some porn to get the juices flowing. Okay, so you are willing to pay for somebody else (the people on the porn video or what-have-you) to do immoral things to get your juices flowing?

Isn't this just like hiring the mafia to kill somebody for you? I mean, sure, you didn't do the killing... but hey, you paid for the guy to do it...

[Backroads]

Another thought is I really don't think we've given families a reasonable response to finding out someone in the family is viewing porn.

How many threads are started by wives here about this asking 'What do I do now?'

What about the wives that have not heard about this message board?

This is true. Now, I'm all for focusing a lot of attention on "Don't do this" but it really puts people in a bind when the forbidden happens. I've heard leaders say to the question "But what if..." with a simplistic "Well, you shouldn't have done that in the first place".

[Vort]

But what benefit is there of a "little bit of porn"?

Mmmmmmmm...dog crap cookies...just adds that certain spicy flair...

[estradling75]

This is true. Now, I'm all for focusing a lot of attention on "Don't do this" but it really puts people in a bind when the forbidden happens. I've heard leaders say to the question "But what if..." with a simplistic "Well, you shouldn't have done that in the first place".

Funny... I hear the church leaders talk about repentance all the time... And it very much answers the "But what if..." At least on a personal level

The harder question become "But what if my spouse..." that is the question that we have to look abit harder to see that we have answer to and that it is right in front of our face the whole time.

Some have proposed that at least on the subject of Porn use we try to minimize the sin to deny the feeling that the spouse has.. ("Oh you shouldn't feel betrayed, because it was just porn")

I would disagree with that approach. Instead I would push the whole becoming more like Christ goal that we should all have. In this case focusing on the Christ-like response to another others sin.

[mnn727]

You know, I get the feeling that many of you think I am advocating for the use of porn, I'm not, someone asked me what possible good it could be and I gave 2 examples from my own pre-LDS life.

What I am advocating is to take it out of the extreme shame group and put it back into the sin category and give families a realistic response to it - its not the end of the world or even the end of the marriage.

Its the breaking of a Covenant and it is possible to come back from that just like its possible to come back from taking a drink or smoking a cigarette or even from eating fruit out of season. (ok the last one was a light hearted attempt at getting a smile out of some of you)

[Backroads]

Funny... I hear the church leaders talk about repentance all the time... And it very much answers the "But what if..." At least on a personal level

The harder question become "But what if my spouse..." that is the question that we have to look abit harder to see that we have answer to and that it is right in front of our face the whole time.

And that harder question is what I was getting at. Repentance and love are givens we all should know, but not every wife (husband) knows whether or not to put up a block, remove themselves from the home, talk to the spouse, etc. It's the practical, day-to-day stuff that can bewilder many people.

[estradling75]

And that harder question is what I was getting at. Repentance and love are givens we all should know, but not every wife (husband) knows whether or not to put up a block, remove themselves from the home, talk to the spouse, etc. It's the practical, day-to-day stuff that can bewilder many people.

Which boils down to a 'what would Jesus do' question that the spouse needs to be familiar enough with Christ to answer personally. The church is very good at providing general guidance. (and nowhere does the church advocate shamming sinners, we picked that up on our own) But it leaves the personal details, the day-to-day up to us to figure out through prayer and personal study. The general guidance is to be more Christ-like

[Guest]

Mmmmmmmm...dog crap cookies...just adds that certain spicy flair...

Good grief, Vort. Just because they have dog crap in them doesn't mean they'll make everyone sick. I guess some of us just have stronger immune systems.

Just make sure to only use chihuahua poop, not mastiff poop like some kind of sicko.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Eowyn

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Another thought is I really don't think we've given families a reasonable response to finding out someone in the family is viewing porn. . .

With some proper counseling they might have worked through it, but it was so shameful to everyone involved, no one would talk about it until I finally talked with the father.

Why didn't you say that in the first place? I am just kidding.

But yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. This may seem like a turn-about on my part, but it isn't. As a survivor of sexual abuse, I could not tolerate my husband viewing porn, I would feel reviolated. However, for the average couple, yes, I think this is something that could and likely should be worked through. I am sorry to hear the example that you shared.

You know, I get the feeling that many of you think I am advocating for the use of porn, I'm not, someone asked me what possible good it could be and I gave 2 examples from my own pre-LDS life.

My first reaction to this was, "No we are just answering your question about why it is a serious problem." but the more I think about it, I have to admit I did get the feeling you were not exactly advocating it but something really close to it.

Since you have clarified, I find that I agree with you much more than I would have expected. It just took a little more "talking" to really understand your point.

What I am advocating is to take it out of the extreme shame group and put it back into the sin category and give families a realistic response to it - its not the end of the world or even the end of the marriage.

Yes, I feel the same way about sex in general. There is so much shame involved that we don't talk about issues like this, we don't talk to kids in healthy ways about sex, we don't know what to say to people who are same-sex attracted but want to live the gospel and we don't know what to say to people who have suffered sexual abuse.

It seems that if sex is involved in any way, we blush and choose from the menu of:

Abstain...blush, blush, blush

Repent...shame, shame, shame

Forgive & Let Go...shame and guilt

With no dialogue involved...and sometimes, as this thread proves, dialogue is necessary. When this thread started I thought you were coming from a completely different place than what I NOW think you are saying. This understanding only came because "we" (collectively) discussed it. "We" (as members of the church trying to bear one another's burdens) need to be able to speak about these things also.

Its the breaking of a Covenant and it is possible to come back from that just like its possible to come back from taking a drink or smoking a cigarette or even from eating fruit out of season. (ok the last one was a light hearted attempt at getting a smile out of some of you)

I agree with the first part, but eat a fruit out of season, and well...I can't be held responsible for what I do next.

[Guest]

You know, I get the feeling that many of you think I am advocating for the use of porn, I'm not, someone asked me what possible good it could be and I gave 2 examples from my own pre-LDS life.

What I am advocating is to take it out of the extreme shame group and put it back into the sin category and give families a realistic response to it - its not the end of the world or even the end of the marriage.

Its the breaking of a Covenant and it is possible to come back from that just like its possible to come back from taking a drink or smoking a cigarette or even from eating fruit out of season. (ok the last one was a light hearted attempt at getting a smile out of some of you)

I never thought you were advocating porn. My answer was directed as an answer to your

"scenarios".

And I never thought porn is an "extreme shame group" in the same manner that I never thought losing your virginity before marriage is an "extreme shame group".

But sin is sin... and there is shame involved in that.

Repentance is the answer to sin... even for those under the "extreme shame group". (Who are these people in that group?)

[mnn727]

even for those under the "extreme shame group". (Who are these people in that group?)

Just read this marriage board and the advise board and you'll find out who they are.

Edited November 14, 2012 by mnn727