Joshua Weed: Why I Love the LDS Church's new mormonsandgays website

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I don't want to start another argument, but I do want to share this article because I think some people are struggling with understanding the "why" of the new church website. This heartfelt article by Josh Weed (a gay mormon) puts into words, better than I could, why I think our leaders did this. Also why along with Josh, I'm glad they did.

Joshua Weed: Why I love the LDS Church's new MormonsandGays.org website | Deseret News

[Suzie]

I haven't really checked the web site entirely however I am curious (after reading about Joshua and Laurie Campbell (also featured in the Church web site)

Woman who had lived lesbian lifestyle brings hope to Mormons with same-sex attraction through LDS Church's new website | Deseret News

Are there examples in the site of people just struggling with same sex attraction and being single? The two examples I read in Deseret News are of people who are now married with children.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Suzie, I don't know. Since being gay is not my issue, I have not read the entire site either. I have visited and spent some time there, certainly.

Ted's story talks about getting married and that making him feel worse....it is implied that he is divorced now.

Well, I did get married and it didn’t solve the problem. In fact, it actually made me feel worse. The Church no longer counsels that as the option. Out of that marriage I do have children. And now I have grandchildren. That’s a huge blessing. The gospel of Jesus Christ provides love and light and enhancement of our abilities to do things. You know, men are that they might have joy and I feel a great joy in my life these days. The essence of the gospel is love. Larry King was interviewing President Hinckley a few years ago, and asked “what should you do about the homosexuals?” And President Hinckley said, “love them.”

[Guest DeborahC]

Having a gay son, when I saw this website I was very happy. Both my and my son's response was, "Well, it's a beginning. At least the issue is coming out of the closet and being discussed."

I know personally several LDS men (boys to me) who have killed themselves over this issue. It's been heartbreaking for our entire family. My son is thankfully well-balanced because we have accepted him and shown him love and support from the beginning. But many of his friends were not so lucky.

For me... this website is a good thing.

[Wingnut]

Since being gay is not my issue, I have not read the entire site either. I have visited and spent some time there, certainly.

Interestingly, I'm don't actually think that mormonsandgays.org is geared toward gays. I think its target audience more likely are the general population of the Church, and specifically family members and friends of gay LDS members. That being, if you're not gay, you probably should be reading the site more.

(...says the girl who isn't gay but hasn't read it all yet either...)

[rayhale]

One question that I have that the mormonsandgays site doesn’t cover is that, how do you treat a family members long-term relationship? Do you accept him/her fully into your family? Do you put their ‘family’ photo up with the rest of your family photos?

[RipplecutBuddha]

One question that I have that the mormonsandgays site doesn’t cover is that, how do you treat a family members long-term relationship? Do you accept him/her fully into your family? Do you put their ‘family’ photo up with the rest of your family photos?

If one of my four brothers (or two sisters) came out of the closet, I have no doubt we as a family would love them no less than before. It's just how we were raised.

Add to that the fact that having SSA in and of itself is no sin any more than being attracted to the opposite sex. In the eyes of the Lord, the sin is only connected to the Law of Chastity. No sex except between a married man and woman. Period.

Now, obviously there will be difficulties regarding SSA going forward once an individual realizes what they're feeling. Again, as long as the LoC is being obeyed, there is no sin. Unfortunately, there's almost an unspoken assumption for any person with SSA to have an uncontrollable urge to act on it. That is clearly not the case.

To echo what Pres. Hinkley said in the 60 minutes interview, people have urges and inclinations of all types. Some can be sinful if acted upon, and one of the purposes of this life is for each and every last one of us to learn how to master all of ourselves, including our urges and inclinations.

There is nothing about SSA that singles them out of the Atonement, thus there is no justifiable reason to single them out of any family unit or social circle.

Now, if one of my family did enter into such a relationship, I would have to hold myself to my own standard. Since all of us sin, and none of us will be free from it in this life, I would still practice the principles Christ taught in his ministry of love and tolerance and acceptance. Nobody in this life needs to answer to me for any reason whatsoever, and I am very grateful for it.

Just my 2 cents

Edited December 21, 2012 by RipplecutBuddha

[Suzie]

One question that I have that the mormonsandgays site doesn’t cover is that, how do you treat a family members long-term relationship? Do you accept him/her fully into your family? Do you put their ‘family’ photo up with the rest of your family photos?

In my opinion, that's entirely up to you. Personally, I would hope if that was my case, I would be 100% supportive.

This what Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman mentioned about it:

Interview With Elder Dallin H. Oaks and Elder Lance B. Wickman: “Same-Gender Attractionâ€

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

One question that I have that the mormonsandgays site doesn’t cover is that, how do you treat a family members long-term relationship? Do you accept him/her fully into your family? Do you put their ‘family’ photo up with the rest of your family photos?

For me the answer is absolutely I would accept him/her fully into the family, and I would put their family photo on the wall.

We know that being gay i.e. having homosexual orientation is not a sin, but violating the Law of Chastity is. Heavenly Father allows us to make our own choices, mistakes and sins and He still loves us. Love each other...what more do we need to know?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Interestingly, I'm don't actually think that mormonsandgays.org is geared toward gays.

I will meet you part way. :) I agree that it is for the rest of us to increase our understanding and help us be more loving.

But I also think it is for the gays. So many young gay Mormons are taking their own lives because their pain. It is to let them know that Heavenly Father loves them.

[Vort]

In my opinion, that's entirely up to you. Personally, I would hope if that was my case, I would be 100% supportive.

This what Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman mentioned about it:

Interview With Elder Dallin H. Oaks and Elder Lance B. Wickman: “Same-Gender Attractionâ€

The quotes at the above link suggest that, though we never abandon the wayward child, we also utterly refuse to embrace the sinful behavior:

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At what point does showing that love cross the line into inadvertently endorsing behavior? If the son says, ‘Well, if you love me, can I bring my partner to our home to visit? Can we come for holidays?’ How do you balance that against, for example, concern for other children in the home?’

ELDER OAKS: That’s a decision that needs to be made individually by the person responsible, calling upon the Lord for inspiration. I can imagine that in most circumstances the parents would say, ‘Please don’t do that. Don’t put us into that position.’ Surely if there are children in the home who would be influenced by this example, the answer would likely be that. There would also be other factors that would make that the likely answer.

I can also imagine some circumstances in which it might be possible to say, ‘Yes, come, but don’t expect to stay overnight. Don’t expect to be a lengthy house guest. Don’t expect us to take you out and introduce you to our friends, or to deal with you in a public situation that would imply our approval of your “partnership.”

There are so many different circumstances, it’s impossible to give one answer that fits all.

ELDER WICKMAN: It’s hard to imagine a more difficult circumstance for a parent to face than that one. It is a case by case determination. The only thing that I would add to what Elder Oaks has just said is that I think it’s important as a parent to avoid a potential trap arising out of one’s anguish over this situation.

I refer to a shift from defending the Lord’s way to defending the errant child’s lifestyle, both with him and with others. It really is true the Lord’s way is to love the sinner while condemning the sin. That is to say we continue to open our homes and our hearts and our arms to our children, but that need not be with approval of their lifestyle. Neither does it mean we need to be constantly telling them that their lifestyle is inappropriate. An even bigger error is now to become defensive of the child, because that neither helps the child nor helps the parent. That course of action, which experience teaches, is almost certainly to lead both away from the Lord’s way.

ELDER OAKS: The First Presidency made a wonderful statement on this subject in a letter in 1991. Speaking of individuals and families that were struggling with this kind of problem, they said, “We encourage Church leaders and members to reach out with love and understanding to those struggling with these issues.” Surely if we are counseled as a body of Church membership to reach out with love and understanding to those ‘struggling with these issues,’ that obligation rests with particular intensity on parents who have children struggling with these issues… even children who are engaged in sinful behavior associated with these issues.

[Dravin]

For me the answer is absolutely I would accept him/her fully into the family, and I would put their family photo on the wall.

We know that being gay i.e. having homosexual orientation is not a sin, but violating the Law of Chastity is. Heavenly Father allows us to make our own choices, mistakes and sins and He still loves us. Love each other...what more do we need to know?

Where the line is between condoning behavior and loving people. That is, generally, where questions like the one you quoted are aimed. And it's not a homosexual relationship limited question, you see the same sort of questions pop up about opposite sex relationships with a live-in boyfriend/girlfriend.

Note, I'm not attempting to rebut your personal approach, but I'm answering your rhetorical question as if it were a real one.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

In my opinion, that's entirely up to you. Personally, I would hope if that was my case, I would be 100% supportive.

This what Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman mentioned about it:

Interview With Elder Dallin H. Oaks and Elder Lance B. Wickman: “Same-Gender Attractionâ€

I will not be 100% supportive, of course. My son is living in sin.

But, this is really nothing different than my devout Catholic mother's relationship with me and my husband - the sinful Mormons. Our pictures are still on the family wall. My mother still loves me dearly. My mother will not tolerate me spouting Book of Mormon verses at family dinner though and my Temple Sealing picture (where I was wearing the white bride's dress) is not on the family wall with all my brothers/sister's wedding pictures. I eloped - got married at the courthouse - so not even my courthouse wedding photos are up on the wall. I understand completely why my wedding photos are not on the family wall.

My gay son (I don't have one but if I did) will know why his wedding photos are not on the wall. I love him and I support him as my son but I don't have to support his sinful lifestyle. On the same token, I don't expect my mother to hang my wedding photos nor stop sending donations to the Carmelite sisters to pray for my salvation.

Okay, I didn't go through mormonandgays website so I don't know what the Church says about it.

Edited December 21, 2012 by anatess

[NeuroTypical]

I think of various questions like this.

Consider you have a friend who is a racist, and just beside herself that her kid married a black person. The friend asks you about hanging family photos (or whatever the question is). Figure out your answer to your friend, then you have your answer for the gay kid.

[Soulsearcher]

I will meet you part way. :) I agree that it is for the rest of us to increase our understanding and help us be more loving.

But I also think it is for the gays. So many young gay Mormons are taking their own lives because their pain. It is to let them know that Heavenly Father loves them.

I'll just kinda toss my experience in on this. There was never a time in my life while i believed in god that i thought he had anything but love for me. The pain you talk about came from the followers that acted in his name. What finally drove me away from the idea of god was, if his followers are able to cause so much harm with impunity in his name, either they have his blessing or he doesn't care, neither embraced the god i had worshiped most of my life so i set him aside. this website does nothing to change that. I tend to agree with wing, that while this can help show gods love for all his children i see it a bit more as damage control to try and undo a lot of the rift that's been created as well as educate. I'm unsure how i feel about the site, i see the good in it, but this message isn't new and in reality i don't think it will change the hearts that have already been resisting the message to begin with, but maybe i'm wrong.

[Bini]

One question that I have that the mormonsandgays site doesn’t cover is that, how do you treat a family members long-term relationship? Do you accept him/her fully into your family? Do you put their ‘family’ photo up with the rest of your family photos?

You love the person. Not the sin.

I noticed that some have hang-ups with posting pictures of their homosexual child and their partner because they're living in sin. News flash, we all are sinners in one way or the other. None of us are perfect.

[Suzie]

The quotes at the above link suggest that, though we never abandon the wayward child, we also utterly refuse to embrace the sinful behavior

Vort, for me Elder Oaks didn't say that's how we should be. He only said what he imagine the situation would be (I am not trying to be technical) because otherwise he wouldn't have said:

That’s a decision that needs to be made individually by the person responsible, calling upon the Lord for inspiration.

There are so many different circumstances, it’s impossible to give one answer that fits all.

[Suzie]

I will not be 100% supportive, of course. My son is living in sin.

Aren't we all sinners? I love my children with all MY heart, I can see myself being 100% supportive and in order to do that, doesn't mean I have to agree with his/her lifestyle.

[Dravin]

Aren't we all sinners? I love my children with all MY heart, I can see myself being 100% supportive and in order to do that, doesn't mean I have to agree with his/her lifestyle.

I really think a big disconnect in these kind of conversations comes down to how people are defining supportive. Some include condoning behaviors in with being supportive, and some, such as yourself, don't.

Edit: Not that it's the only disconnect. I'd say the other big disconnect is over just what it means to condone behaviors. Something Person A feels is condoning their child's behavior Person B feels falls squarely into the supporting not condoning camp.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

Aren't we all sinners? I love my children with all MY heart, I can see myself being 100% supportive and in order to do that, doesn't mean I have to agree with his/her lifestyle.

You love the person. Not the sin.

I noticed that some have hang-ups with posting pictures of their homosexual child and their partner because they're living in sin. News flash, we all are sinners in one way or the other. None of us are perfect.

Well, I'm not one for hanging a picture of my kid snorting cocaine either. Yes, we are all sinners. But, I don't intend to display our sins for all to see in my living room wall and think I'm just A-okay with it.

And that's the really sad thing about this. It's like we're all guilt tripped into having to accept these sins on our living room wall because - oh, you're not being loving to your son if you don't... emotional blackmail is how I see it.

I can love my son 100% without having to support him 100% for things I perceive to be leading to his own spiritual destruction. It is for him to accept that as my standing principle just like I accept that he believes differently than I am. And I have experience with 100% love without 100% support. My amazing mother loves me 100%. I feel it. I know it. Even if there is no way she is going to consider my marriage worth anything under the eyes of God.

Edited December 21, 2012 by anatess

[SanctitasDeo]

I like what Anatess and Bini said. I also like Dravin's last post. What a lot of people forget is that an active gay lifestyle is another sin like many others. How would you treat your son who leaves the church and lives with his girlfriend? Smokes? They are not exactly equivalent, but they are all situations where you have to decide what kinds of lines to draw. And it really doesn't seem clearcut to me. Different people will have different opinions about what constitutes condoning sinful behavior. Vort is right: there is no one size fits all solution.

Like many other situations, it seems like this is best approached with prayer and fasting, asking the Lord what will be best for your family. It seems unlikely to me that the best thing will be to treat the situation as if it were ideal, but it is equally unlikely that the best thing will be to throw the kid out. That is how you break people. We do not shun people in this church.

[SanctitasDeo]

I like what Anatess and Bini said. I also like Dravin's last post. What a lot of people forget is that an active gay lifestyle is another sin like many others. How would you treat your son who leaves the church and lives with his girlfriend? Smokes? They are not exactly equivalent, but they are all situations where you have to decide what kinds of lines to draw. And it really doesn't seem clearcut to me. Different people will have different opinions about what constitutes condoning sinful behavior. Vort is right: there is no one size fits all solution.

Like many other situations, it seems like this is best approached with prayer and fasting, asking the Lord what will be best for your family. It seems unlikely to me that the best thing will be to treat the situation as if it were ideal, but it is equally unlikely that the best thing will be to throw the kid out. That is how you break people. We do not shun people in this church.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Where the line is between condoning behavior and loving people. That is, generally, where questions like the one you quoted are aimed. And it's not a homosexual relationship limited question, you see the same sort of questions pop up about opposite sex relationships with a live-in boyfriend/girlfriend.

Note, I'm not attempting to rebut your personal approach, but I'm answering your rhetorical question as if it were a real one.

Thanks Dravin. You are right. We all love our children, but where we decide to draw the line will differ with each family/person. I noticed that even Elder Oaks gave a couple different possibiilities. Thanks for pointing that out. Ineed to take my own advice and love others, not judge even when I think they are not being loving enough.

I particularly like this quote from Elder Cook:

"As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender."

I don't think it will change the hearts that have already been resisting the message to begin with, but maybe i'm wrong.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. If I were in your position, I'm sure I would be wary about hoping for any change as well. You position is completely understandable.

For myself though, I do see that people are changing. We can't change them all, no. But there are hearts changing. I see it in the conversations/and dialogue that are happening about this topic. Straight people are commenting on blogs and saying their eyes have been opened. Some gay people (like Josh in this article) are feeling more understood and less alone. Change is happening. I am sorry that it has been so long in coming, and is so slow still, but it is happening.

[Traveler]

I'll just kinda toss my experience in on this. There was never a time in my life while i believed in god that i thought he had anything but love for me. The pain you talk about came from the followers that acted in his name. What finally drove me away from the idea of god was, if his followers are able to cause so much harm with impunity in his name, either they have his blessing or he doesn't care, neither embraced the god i had worshiped most of my life so i set him aside. this website does nothing to change that. I tend to agree with wing, that while this can help show gods love for all his children i see it a bit more as damage control to try and undo a lot of the rift that's been created as well as educate. I'm unsure how i feel about the site, i see the good in it, but this message isn't new and in reality i don't think it will change the hearts that have already been resisting the message to begin with, but maybe i'm wrong.

Obviously you heart is not changed.

What finally drove me away from the idea of god was, if his followers are able to cause so much harm with impunity in his name, either they have his blessing or he doesn't care, neither embraced the god i had worshiped most of my life so i set him aside.

Mankind is in a "fallen" state and the religious message from G-d (Jesus and Christianity) is that to be indulgent to self will cause spiritual death - eternal ruin (unsustainable behavior). But there is a way of salvation that comes from self discipline - denying self and the temptation to satisfy self and living by covenant and commandment.

However, many have a credit card mentality - they believe that they can charge to credit anything they want without being accountable. That if G-d pays for or allows anything from anybody he should all for them. And if G-d says something they do not like - then do not believe in G-d.

The Traveler

[Suzie]

I really think a big disconnect in these kind of conversations comes down to how people are defining supportive. Some include condoning behaviors in with being supportive, and some, such as yourself, don't.

Dravin, I think everyone here knows by now that I'm quite unorthodox and sort of liberal in some of my thoughts. I wish I could give a straight answer but I really do not know how I completely feel or think about the issue of condoning behavior.