Let Women Pray in General Conference

[Wingnut]

The problem with this rationale is that it is not rational. Those who offer the invocation and benediction do not do so by the authority of their Priesthood. They simply offer the prayer in the name of Christ, as they have been instructed, and as can be done by anyone -- specifically, by any baptized member of the Church, male or female. I suspect that the "men-only" tradition of prayer in General Conference is just that: tradition. I doubt there is any doctrinal need for it.

Do I detect a hint of Mormon feminism?

/me runs for cover

[pam]

Do I detect a hint of Mormon feminism?

/me runs for cover

Next he'll be wearing pants to church.

[Wingnut]

Next he'll be wearing pants to church.

Heaven help us.

[Vort]

I participated in the "protest" day, but my attitude was one of support for those who feel subjugated, not that I do myself.

Also, in case my tone wasn't clear in my above post, the question wasn't intended to bait you Vort...it was a genuine exploration of the scope of your thoughts on the issue. Thanks for answering honestly and clearly. :)

You are welcome. You owe me no explanation. My opinions are mine, and I claim them as such and (usually) not as God's own truth. God is your judge, not me.

In my opinion, there are far better ways of demonstrating support and sisterhood to those who feel subjugated than to participate in a "protest", however mild, initiated by those who hate and would destroy the Church. A protest in sacrament meeting is always, always, always inappropriate, without exception. I can think of no possible situation in which such a protest would be acceptable to God.

[dahlia]

I'd be in favor of only allowing the RS and YW general presidencies to speak in Conference, and relegating the baby-talking (you know it's true!) Primary presidency to offering prayers.

/ducks

Oh man, I thought I was the only one who thought that way. We can run out together.

For the most part, I dislike the women speakers as they mostly sound like kindergarten teachers. I can't hold a room of grad students or a court room speaking that way and I don't expect women in leadership positions to speak that way, either. It just grates.

Edited January 15, 2013 by dahlia
English

[dahlia]

At the risk of sounding chauvinistic, having your own General Relief Society Meeting where women pray and conduct the meeting is not enough?

Should we sit in the back of the chapel, too? Maybe we can string a velvet rope between the men and women, or put up a screen? Maybe SLC will start directing chapels to add a choir loft and we can sit up there, away and unseen by the men?

I'm going pretty far afield here (though that is how women and blacks are/were treated depending on the culture and the era), but you can see where 'isn't it enough' can be problematic for those who are supposed to be satisfied with the crumbs.

[Just_A_Guy]

Should we sit in the back of the chapel, too? Maybe we can string a velvet rope between the men and women, or put up a screen? Maybe SLC will start directing chapels to add a choir loft and we can sit up there, away and unseen by the men?

Next thing you know, we'll be giving 'em their own bathrooms. And lounges. Lounges with rocking chairs!

[Just_A_Guy]

For the most part, I dislike the women speakers as they mostly sound like kindergarten teachers. I can't hold a room of grad students or a court room speaking talking that way and I don't expect women in leadership positions to speak that way, either. It just grates.

Dunno. Worked pretty well for Dolores Umbridge (for a while, at least).

I actually agree that there is a "tone" that a lot of LDS female leaders adopt that can be off-putting. Then again, I'm working on not criticizing it too much. It's the way these women are and the way they speak - influenced by their subculture or whatever - and heaven knows they didn't ask to be given these positions where they have to speak before a couple million people a few times a year including several thousand militant feminists and all-out anti-Mormons who would slice, dice, and serve them up for public ridicule for any offense ranging from their wardrobe to their hairstyle to their tone and diction.

[Guest]

People really don't say "amen" in protest, because it has "men" in it? That's silly, and here's why:

The usage of Amen, meaning "so be it", as found in the early scriptures of the Bible is said to be of Hebrew origin;[5][6] however, the basic triconsonantal root from which the word was derived is common to a number of Semitic Languages such as Aramaic and Arabic. The word was imported into the Greek of the early Church from Judaism.[1][7] From Greek, amen entered the other Western languages. According to a standard dictionary etymology, amen passed from Greek into Late Latin, and thence into English.[8] Rabbinic scholars from medieval France believed the standard Hebrew word for faith emuna comes from the root amen. Although in English transliteration they look different, they are both from the root alef-mem-nun.

That is, the Hebrew word amen derives from the same ancient triliteral Hebrew root as does the verb ʾāmán.[9] Grammarians frequently list ʾāmán under its three consonants (aleph-mem-nun), which are identical to those of ʾāmēn (note that the Hebrew letter א aleph represents a glottal stop sound, which functions as a consonant in the morphology of Hebrew).[8] This triliteral root means to be firm, confirmed, reliable, faithful, have faith, believe.

So if you're going to boycott "amen", are you also going to boycott mention, amend, mentor, statement, testament, all the other -ments, etc.?

I am becoming more and more convinced that people who protest things at church do it for the sake of protesting things at church, not because of the actual "issues" they're protesting. Good grief.

[dahlia]

I agree. IF we believe all the things we SAY we believe when we apply for a Temple Recommend, then we should be comfortable letting the Authorities run the Church and instead of causing upheaval, we should SUPPORT them.

I've seen great change take place in the church, in the Lord's own time, not in ours.

Boy, I struggle with this, in and out of church. I am a protester and occupier from way before the Occupy Wallstreet types were born. I know if Martin Luther King jr and others didn't march and protest, my life as a black person in America would most likely be very different. If women didn't march for the vote, my life would be different. You get my point.

BUT, I firmly agree that you either accept the Church as it is, LDS or Catholic (I know a lot of fringe Catholics who think women will be priests, etc.) or you go somewhere else. I'm really OK with that.

And yet, how do we effect change? Personally, I could care less about the pants argument (didn't even know of the protest until I read it here. I don't think anyone in my ward did it.) I start to care when the issue is women having a public voice - but I see a lot of women in positions of authority during Conference, so I'm not too sure how big a problem that is.

Right now, I don't have anything in particular I'm angry about or want to change. I'm just an observer of the scene, but it's an interesting tension between cultural/political change and change in the Church.

[Wingnut]

People really don't say "amen" in protest, because it has "men" in it? That's silly, and here's why:

So if you're going to boycott "amen", are you also going to boycott mention, amend, mentor, statement, testament, all the other -ments, etc.?

I am becoming more and more convinced that people who protest things at church do it for the sake of protesting things at church, not because of the actual "issues" they're protesting. Good grief.

I think Vort was exaggerating, and I think there's cultural context to Beefche's suggestion. My husband always pronounces it "ameen" instead of "amen," out of habit since his mission, based on the language he spoke then. Beefche served in a similar geographic region.

[Vort]

I think Vort was exaggerating, and I think there's cultural context to Beefche's suggestion. My husband always pronounces it "ameen" instead of "amen," out of habit since his mission, based on the language he spoke then. Beefche served in a similar geographic region.

"Ameen", as in sounds like Idi Amin? Interesting. What part of the world pronounces it like that?

[Wingnut]

"Ameen", as in sounds like Idi Amin? Interesting. What part of the world pronounces it like that?

I'm not sure how Idi Amin is pronounce. AH-meen is how I'm intending it.

Beefche served in the Sofia Bulgaria mission.

[MorningStar]

I pointed out to a ward member tonight that women do pray at General Conference if you count the Relief Society conference as part of General Conference, which it is. The way I see it is there are many more male General Authorities and I do like the talks from women even if their voices often drive me up the wall too.

[Vort]

I pointed out to a ward member tonight that women do pray at General Conference if you count the Relief Society conference as part of General Conference, which it is. The way I see it is there are many more male General Authorities and I do like the talks from women even if their voices often drive me up the wall too.

ALL the General Authorities are men. General leaders of the auxiliaries such as Relief Society, Young Mens, Young Womens, and Primary are called General Officers, not General Authorities. The latter term is restricted to members of the First Presidency, Quorum of Twelve, Quorums of Seventy (including Area Authority Seventies), the Presiding Bishopric, and the Church Patriarch (Eldred G. Smith, and yes, he's still alive at 106). At least, I think that's the list.

[Wingnut]

ALL the General Authorities are men. General leaders of the auxiliaries such as Relief Society, Young Mens, Young Womens, and Primary are called General Officers, not General Authorities. The latter term is restricted to members of the First Presidency, Quorum of Twelve, Quorums of Seventy (including Area Authority Seventies), the Presiding Bishopric, and the Church Patriarch (Eldred G. Smith, and yes, he's still alive at 106). At least, I think that's the list.

I've often wondered if there was a differentiation. Thanks for this.

[Vort]

I've often wondered if there was a differentiation. Thanks for this.

By the way, it looks like I was wrong. In addition to the First Presidency, Quorum of Twelve, and Presiding Bishopric (and Church Patriarch, though this is never mentioned any more), only the First and Second Quorums of Seventy are considered General Authorities. The other six quorums of seventy and the area authority seventies are apparently considered local priesthood leaders over their specific areas of assignment.

[SanctitasDeo]

"Ameen", as in sounds like Idi Amin? Interesting. What part of the world pronounces it like that?

It's a Slavic thing. I mean, maybe other people do, too, but Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Slovakian, etc. will have Ameen. I still say it that way most of the time.

Personally, I have no problem with women praying. I don't think that the civil rights protest model is the best way to effect change in the church. I also think they don't know any other way to achieve the results they want. I wonder what would happen if they asked (I wonder how they would go about asking, anyway, since a letter from an individual will just go back to the Stake President).

Tradition in the church is a tricky thing.

[MorningStar]

I really don't care one way or the other. My feelings as a woman aren't going to be changed by listening to women pray twice a year at General Conference when I hear women pray all the time. I think it's silly to try to change that by protest.

[Dove]

Sometimes I get tired of the "feminist" movement in the church. I believe the church to be obviously patriarchal; yet, I'm not a member to change that. I'm a member because I believe that the priesthood authority is truly the "authority to act in God's name" here on earth. I do have a personal testimony of it strength and power in my life.

That being said, no one is forcing these women to be members of the church.....And I don't believe it is ours to change it to fit our view of what life should be/the church should be. They can certainly go and start their own feminist "church." Why change the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints? What authority do they have to do that? None......

Yes, I do struggle with woman's issues and the church. But, I never will be one to start political uprisings to change that for my comfort. It's not mine to do. There certainly are plenty of churches that have doctrine to comfort everyone. But, to me, those are going to become as "dust in the wind" in the face of Christ's true church.

Dove

[ploomf]

I'm not really a member of the church anymore so please feel free to disregard this but I think something a lot of women struggle with is the lack of strong female role models in the church. When I was active I could name the president of the church and the 12 apostles without even really thinking about it but if you asked me who the current General Relief Society President or General Young Women's president was I probably couldn't have told you. Most of the women that were held up as role models for us girls (such as Emma Smith) were wives and they were admired because of that, because they were good wives and helpmeets. There were exceptions to this, Eliza R Snow being one of them, but by and large role models for women didn't seem to exist. Strong role models for single women especially seemed non existent. That was something that I'll admit bothered me a little (not a lot and it's not why I left the church but a little).

Even in a church as patriarchal as the Catholic church you have a plethora of female saints, female doctors of the church, and female role models of all types for both married and single women. I've loved learning about women like St Therese of Lisieux, St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena, and in modern times Mother Teresa and Mother Angelica (just to name a few). They were amazing faithful women and they've been so inspiring to me.

So this has gotten way longer than I intended but I really don't think most of these women want the priesthood or that they want to tear down the church or anything like that. I think most of them just want to feel valued and useful in Gods kingdom whether they are married or single and they want visible modern strong, smart, and faithful female role models that they can identify with and look up to.

[Wingnut]

I really don't care one way or the other. My feelings as a woman aren't going to be changed by listening to women pray twice a year at General Conference when I hear women pray all the time. I think it's silly to try to change that by protest.

To be clear: the current issue is not a protest, is not happening in Church, and is not detracting from the spirit of meetings. It is a petition that is happening online and through the mail.

That being said, no one is forcing these women to be members of the church.....And I don't believe it is ours to change it to fit our view of what life should be/the church should be. They can certainly go and start their own feminist "church." Why change the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints? What authority do they have to do that? None......

I agree, but this (specifically) isn't an attempt to change doctrine, but rather outdated policy that doesn't seem to have a basis in anything other than Victorian traditions.

So this has gotten way longer than I intended but I really don't think most of these women want the priesthood or that they want to tear down the church or anything like that. I think most of them just want to feel valued and useful in Gods kingdom whether they are married or single and they want visible modern strong, smart, and faithful female role models that they can identify with and look up to.

I sincerely appreciate all of your thoughts from this post. I want to point out about this paragraph that there certainly are women in the feminist Mormon movement that do want the priesthood, and will stop at nothing short of having it. But I agree that it's probably not "most" of them.

[MarginOfError]

The only Quorums of the Seventy that are General Authorities are the First and the Second. Area authorities are not considered "General Authorities." Otherwise, Vort's list is correct.

I don't really care if women pray in conference or not. I probably wont' be listening anyway as the tone of just about everyone at General Conference makes me check out (something about the teleprompter diction). I much prefer the transcripts to the actual speaking.

That being said, I understand the sentiment behind the petition. If prayers were to be assigned randomly to general officers, (and we assumed 91 men and 9 women, for convenience), we should expect .72 prayers from women every general conference. That would amount to 72 prayers from women in the past 50 years*. There have been exactly 0. The women aren't even being considered.

But to me, that just isn't a big deal. I think the larger problem is that women are under represented not in General Conference, but in Church leadership. If you fix the actual problem, the symptom would go away.

* At the same time, if talks were randomly assigned (which they are not), we probably would have seen far fewer women speakers.

[Wingnut]

(like JS asking to allow others to see the plates - which ended up being stolen...)

Huh?

[Wingnut]

Doctrine and Covenants 3:headÂ*

Doctrine and Covenants 10Â*

Yeah, that's the manuscript. You said the plates were stolen. Big difference there.