Child Sex Offenders at Church

[Guest DeborahC]

If you do not have children you can't begin to know the fear this predator put into the hearts of parents.

And if you've never BEEN molested, you doubly can't begin to know the fear.

And if you've been REPEATEDLY molested by a person everyone else trusts, you triply can't begin to know the fear.

And yes, I do have a cat.

Here is a good piece on pedophiles from Big Brothers of America:

Things You Need to Know About Child Molesters - Abuse

I carried the guilt from my abuse from age 7 until I was 33 years old.

I still carry the scars at 60.

Don't tell me about pedophiles

I know firsthand.

Edited January 19, 2013 by john doe
unnecessary

[LilyBelle00]

Topics like this make me realize that there are some things that I struggle to forgive. I guess not being able to forgive child molesters is a weakness of mine.

When I think of something happening to one of my kids.... I don't even have the words for how I would feel or react.

[Dravin]

You may not be able to be with your children the entire time you're at church, but that doesn't mean this brother has to be left alone the entire time he's at church. I think it would be perfectly reasonable, given his history, to have him in eye sight of another brother while in the building.

Escorts or other changes in ward behavior seem reasonable to me.

[pam]

I realize that this subject can be extremely sensitive and personal to some members of the site. But we have to also remember what the gospel teaches us about forgiveness and the atonement.

[Guest DeborahC]

Colorado has a good website on what to watch for and what to tell children:

Colorado Convicted Sex Offender Site

Forgive him, yes.

Be cordial, yes.

Be on guard, yes.

Trust him around your children? NEVER.

[Dravin]

If you do not have children you can't begin to know the fear this predator put into the hearts of parents.

There are plenty of parents not calling for the execution of pedophiles, so while I may not know what goes through a parent's mind apparently having a child, or children, doesn't automatically make one agree with you. What? I'm supposed to go, "You know what, I don't have children. I agree that pedophiles should be executed."?

And if you've never BEEN molested, you doubly can't begin to know the fear.

Nope, I can't. I take it this is an attempt into trying to shame me into conceding that pedophiles should be executed? You've been through something horrible so now I need to not object to anything you say on the subject? I must concede that pedophiles should be executed because of your personal history?

And if you've been REPEATEDLY molested by a person everyone else trusts, you triply can't begin to know the fear.

And again. I guess I can continue to expect more of this?

What is interesting is that for all you know I'm all in favor of life long imprisonment of pedophiles. However, I had the temerity to disagree with you that they should be executed, well that means you must get up in arms and charge at me with as much emotive weight as you can muster.

Edited January 19, 2013 by john doe
Removed previously edited portions and references to it

[pam]

Colorado has a good website on what to watch for and what to tell children:

Colorado Convicted Sex Offender Site

Forgive him, yes.

Be cordial, yes.

Be on guard, yes.

Trust him around your children? NEVER.

That would be fair to me.

[Guest DeborahC]

There are plenty of parents not calling for the execution of pedophiles, so while I may not know what goes through a parent's mind apparently having a child, or children, doesn't automatically make one agree with you. What? I'm supposed to go, "You know what, I don't have children. I agree that pedophiles should be executed."?

Nope, I can't. I take it this is an attempt into trying to shame me into conceding that pedophiles should be executed? You've been through something horrible so now I need to not object to anything you say on the subject? I must concede that pedophiles should be executed because of your personal history?

And again. I guess I can continue to expect more of this?

It's disrespectful to think a question is irrelevant? That is a new one. What is interesting is that for all you know I'm all in favor of life long imprisonment of pedophiles. However, I had the temerity to disagree with you that they should be executed, well that means you must get up in arms and charge at me with as much emotive weight as you can muster.

Has someone shamed you in your past? I'm not trying to shame you into anything and I don't expect you or anyone to agree with me that anyone should be executed. You are the one who seems to be stuck on that one point. I do feel, for a moderator, that you are very disrespectful and flippant. Asking me if i have a cat has nothing to do with this conversation. Having children does.

Your attempt to turn my words back on me is interesting. I might hope for a bit more compassion or at least understanding from someone who is supposed to be moderating. But my experience as a victim of molestation is that some people are threatened by other people's pain.

I expect nothing from you except responsible kind moderation.

Edited January 19, 2013 by DeborahC

[BadWolf]

If raping children isn't grounds for excommunication & disfellowship, then NOTHING else should be.

[BadWolf]

I've rewritten this a few times, and Ive decided to break it into 2 parts.

1) Child Rapists / Pedophiles & Drunk Drivers

I consider pedophiles to be a lot like drunk drivers.

Yes. There are always some around that I don't know about. I do my best to avoid them & protect my family, but sometimes... A drunk driver will just plow into the side of your car / house or now down pedestrians on the street. You do your best, and deal with what you can't help. The same with unknown pedophiles.

Deliberately bringing children into contact with a known pedophile? That's putting my child into a car with a drunk driver. That's more MY fault, than the drunk's. Because I KNOWINGLY PUT MY CHILD IN HARM'S way. Someone I'm supposed to protect, I leave up to how "good" a driver the drunk really is. I don't CARE how "sorry" the drunk is for the last crash he was in. Or the crash before that. Or the crash before that. Or how much he never WANTS to crash again. He's drunk. He's GOING to crash again. Period. And its 100% my fault when he hurts people if I ignore the fact that he's drunk, because he's sorry.

And 'supervising' a pedophile? That's like climbing on in the car with the drunk drive & my child. I MIGHT be able to stop him from crashing. But probably not.

I will NEVER, knowingly, put my child in the car with a drunk driver, nor in the path of a pedophiles.

Edited January 19, 2013 by BadWolf

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

As a survivor, I have some strong feelings about this topic. I'll keep this short though...

Most offenders are someone the victim knows...a family member (often a sibling, you would be amazed how often that happens), a family friend. Once I worked in Young Women's with a girl who had been molested by her primary teacher.

All I can say is educate yourself about prevention. And listen to the Spirit. My children were protected from a family sex-offender (one of their cousins who served time for this offense) because my husband and I listened to the Spirit.

[BadWolf]

2)

Raping children is evil.

More evil than anything else I know.

I will in no possible way knowingly support, supply victims, nor condone evil.

When a child is raped, one of a few possible outcomes happens:

- A tiny minority survive, undamaged.

- Most are damaged mentally, emotionally, & spiritually for their entire LIFE.

- Many commit suicide

- Many turn to drugs & alcohol

- Many become pedophiles. Raping children is how pedophiles reproduce.

- Some become sociopaths, so damaged they become irrevocably broken.

Child rape is SOUL DESTROYING.

So very, very, very few come out of childhood molestation with their spirit intact.

I compared pedophiles to drunk drivers (not alcoholics), for a very specific reason. A drunk cannot simply choose to be sober. They can try to convince people they're sober, they can try to act sober, but they're not. Unlike a drunk, however, a baby raper is no threat to themselves. They are only a threat to others. The children they rape. The children they kill (suicide). The children their victims rape after turning predator themselves. The families they destroy (suicide & drug use & your child becoming a pedophile themselves, or a sociopath, from what was done to them). The spirits they break. The. List. Goes. On.

The average pedophile rapes 40 children every 10 years.

That's hundreds of children in a lifetime

They cannot be stopped

They cannot be supervised

(Finger penetration takes less than 5 seconds through the leg hole of a diaper with the parents right there, who will apologize to the pedophiles for the "must be nap time" tantrum, meanwhile they're terrorizing current & past victims into silence & suicidal despair, and GROOMING the future ones purely by their being in the same space).

If a known pedophile is "forgiven" and allowed into sacrement & other meetings?

Neither I, nor my family will be there.

It is my job to protect the innocent.

If my leaders choose not to protect the innocent, that's between them and god.

I will NOT choose to explain God why I did nothing to prevent the rapes of countless children.

I may well have a lot to answer for when I die. Allowing children to be raped when I had the power to prevent it? No.

I will take sacrement at home.

Heck. I'd rather explain keeping my promises, but SKIPPING sacrament, than to throw my child under a bus in order to be able to make promises Id be breaking by being there.

Before I EVER set foot into any building -or allow my child to- that welcomes known child rapists.

[Smudge]

Last year my friends told me that such a man had joined their ward (the ward I attended when I was at uni) and they told me that members where instructed to treat him as a normal member but at the same time during primary the corridors were patroled by at least one member of the bishopric and that he was "escorted" between in classes - but it was done in a subtle way eg a group or priesthood would start talking with him and then they would just naturally make their way to priesthood or from priesthood to sunday school or sacrament

[rkhutchinson]

The law in my state was that a registered sex offenders (RSO) convicted of a crime against a minor could not be in a place where children congregate for education, recreational or social purposes. In 2009 a RSO was arrested for attending church in a building that also provided children's programs. The ACLU stepped in and took his cause all the way to the state supreme court, which in July of 2012struck down the law as unconstitutional because it is overbroad. Currently there are very few legal prohibitions keeping sexual predators separated from children in my state.

I don't understand the mentality of the ACLU- it is wrong for a child to pray in school but a RSO convicted of assaulting a child needs to be able to pray in a building full of children? But I guess that is a topic for another day.

[Dravin]

Has someone shamed you in your past? I'm not trying to shame you into anything and I don't expect you or anyone to agree with me that anyone should be executed.

Yes you are. It's a standard tactic, your post boils over with, "I've experienced horrible things, how dare you disagree!"

You are the one who seems to be stuck on that one point. I do feel, for a moderator, that you are very disrespectful and flippant. Asking me if i have a cat has nothing to do with this conversation. Having children does.

No it doesn't. It clearly doesn't make one decide one way or the other for one's position on execution for pedophiles, nor does it do away with the contradiction of your statements. Just how many executed people do you expect to have as members of the congregation?

Your attempt to turn my words back on me is interesting. I might hope for a bit more compassion or at least understanding from someone who is supposed to be moderating. But my experience as a victim of molestation is that some people are threatened by other people's pain.

I expect nothing from you except responsible kind moderation.

Yep, I was right. I could expect more. Maybe it's so automatic that you can't even see it?

[Bini]

I'm not sure why it's been emphasised that OP forgive this man and allow him to repent through the Atonement because OP has never stated otherwise, only that in the light of things, the presence of a sex offender is a concern -- that makes sense! Being a mother, I'd be very concerned of my daughter's welfare, too.

We've had this discussion many times before. You forgive the sinner but you don't have to trust that person again. Forgiveness and trust are two different things. A relative that has been caught sodomising your child can and should be forgiven, but that doesn't mean that after he (or she) does their time, that you need to call them up and arrange that they sit for your child, again. No, you use common sense.

LM makes a good point. I think questioning WHY this man was allowed to work with children given his past, is valid -- I would. Certainly, it makes you wonder if there are any silent victims in the ward that have not spoken up since he's been in callings. Is my child one? All reasonable concerns.

MOE makes a great point. Instead of being paranoid, be smart about the situation, and have a priesthood leader do a "buddy system" with the man.

[LilyBelle00]

Dravin, are you so far advanced spiritually, worldly, and emotionally that you truly know how you would feel and react to anything that happens to you even if you've never experienced it? Wow.

I promise I'm not trying to attack anyone here. I absolutely hate confrontation. I just know that when I had my own children my world turned upside down. The way I thought about so many things completely changed. It can't be helped.

I laugh when I think of all the times I said "I don't have kids but if I did I would _____". Yeah right. It all goes out the window. :)

[rkhutchinson]

I am new to this forum so I don't know if mean spirited remarks are standard. It is a shame to be subjected to pointless bickering that ignores the bigger issue. - Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

- Ephesians 4:31,32

To everyone who have offered thoughtful opinions- thank you. I can't tell you the level of stress this has caused me and my husband. As Sunday approaches, I fight not to cry. I know this is the true church, there is nowhere I would rather be. I know the atonement applies to eveyone for every sin. I know it is my duty to forgive everyone. I also, know that Heavenly Father charged me with protecting two sweet spirits when He entrusted me with my children.

Edited January 19, 2013 by john doe
unnecessary

[LilyBelle00]

I am new to this forum so I don't know if mean spirited remarks are standard. It is a shame to be subjected to pointless bickering that ignores the bigger issue. - Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

- Ephesians 4:31,32

To everyone who have offered thoughtful opinions- thank you. I can't tell you the level of stress this has caused me and my husband. As Sunday approaches, I fight not to cry. I know this is the true church, there is nowhere I would rather be. I know the atonement applies to eveyone for every sin. I know it is my duty to forgive everyone. I also, know that Heavenly Father charged me with protecting two sweet spirits when He entrusted me with my children.

I'm very sorry that you are going through this. I will pray that it all works out for the best for you and your family. There are some here that understand the complete, all consuming love that you have for your children.

Maybe you could bring your concerns to the bishop and ask exactly how the ward plans on protecting the children? It may make you feel better to know that there is a plan.

Edited January 19, 2013 by john doe

[Guest DeborahC]

I am curious who removed my response to this posting by Dravin and why?

There are plenty of parents not calling for the execution of pedophiles, so while I may not know what goes through a parent's mind apparently having a child, or children, doesn't automatically make one agree with you. What? I'm supposed to go, "You know what, I don't have children. I agree that pedophiles should be executed."?

I do not expect you or any other person to agree with me that pedophiles should be executed. I'm perfectly aware that my feelings are strong because of my own experiences.

Nope, I can't. I take it this is an attempt into trying to shame me into conceding that pedophiles should be executed? You've been through something horrible so now I need to not object to anything you say on the subject? I must concede that pedophiles should be executed because of your personal history?

I'm not trying to shame anybody into conceding anything. You are the one who seems to be stuck on execution and keep bringing it up.

And again. I guess I can continue to expect more of this?

It's disrespectful to think a question is irrelevant? That is a new one. What is interesting is that for all you know I'm all in favor of life long imprisonment of pedophiles. However, I had the temerity to disagree with you that they should be executed, well that means you must get up in arms and charge at me with as much emotive weight as you can muster.

Your questions about if I owned a cat felt very disrespectful and flippant, and not the type of answer I would expect from a moderator. When you ask such a question, it feels like you are very unsympathetic and even enjoying the pain your comments are inflicting.

I am not up in arms because you disagree with me about someone being executed, Dravin. You have focused on that and are trying to turn my words back on me.

All I am asking from you is respect, a bit of compassion for those of us who are survivors of abuse, and some kind moderation instead of attack.

What might help me more would be a response like, "Wow, I'm sorry that happened to you and you have some really strong feelings about it. I don't agree, but I can see how hurt you must be and how fearful for other children you might be when put in the situation where a predator is allowed to be near them."

Please do not remove my response again.

[Bini]

Dravin, you must realise that your response does come off coldly, and that this discussion is already a difficult one, especially for real life sexual abuse survivors.

And it's true, your whole outlook on life changes once you become a parent. For mothers, there's a very intense bond between them and their children -- after carrying that child inside of you and then giving birth -- you live and breathe your kids. It's a mother's natural instinct to want to guard and protect her children, at whatever cost, however extreme it may seem. My husband is the same way, and could give a rat's butt what anyone else thinks, he knows that it's his responsibility to provide safety and security for his family..

[Guest DeborahC]

rk, Lillybelle's thoughts mirror my own.

I also understand your fears and your feelings.

They are real and they are valid, and I'm sorry you are having to worry about such a thing.

I will pray for you and your family.

I'll also pray that your Ward Leaders can come up with a satisfying solution.

And if your Bishop doesn't listen, please take this issue up with the Stake Presidency.

Better to be labeled as extra vigilant than to have one more child damaged.

God Bless You.

[john doe]

Deborahc, you have mail. Please check your inbox.

[Bini]

Legal question. Maybe I missed this along the way.

If State law does not allow sex offenders to be around children, then they CANNOT attend church, correct? We, as LDS, believe in abiding by the laws of man, correct? The other question is, if the State has no such law, is the method of dealing with a sex offender a case-by-case basis?

[Tough Grits]

Taking the innocence away from a child is nothing like a person being addicted to drugs, therefore refraining from committing future acts of child abuse is nothing like a person refraining from taking drugs again.

I was molested by a family member. After YEARS, I finally learned that he had had inappropriate behavior with his own daughters.

By the time he got to me, it was no longer weird or inappropriate behavior. It was much more.

Then he got to my cousin after me.

Heroine hurts mostly who? The user. However, sex crimes hurt OTHERS. How can a person who is constantly battling images of sexual acts NOT touch, NOT to try expose themselves, NOT seek to find release?

The very nature of their sick desire revolves around OTHERS. I think that others can be polite and they can be respectful, but unless they have been abused, or unless they are the parent of child who has been abused, then I personally feel they truly have no idea of what they speak.

Did I wish my relative dead? No. Was he ever arrested? No. Did he ever "get better", obviously not. Decades of abuse with close family members proves that. Was he a member of the Church? Yes. Did that cure him? No.

Did I forgive? Yes. I actually loved him. He was a close relative, though I won't say how close. As I got older I learned how to protect myself. I learned to warn everybody in the family.

Guess what? That was out of love too. Love for the sinner in this case does not mean we allow that person the opportunity to abuse another. We have to have love for the innocents around us who we could prevent from becoming another victim.

In my family nobody spoke up until me and my cousin. She told her parents because--as her older cousin--I told her she HAD to. For the first time in decades something was done.

I forgave this person for what they did to me...but I never forgot. I NEVER left my children alone with him. I NEVER left an opportunity for my children to become a victim. Love for him? Yes. Love for my children? Absolutely, because I didn't want them to endure what I endured. Love and forgiveness does not mean an absence of common sense.

But do I believe in my heart that this person could ever reform...no. A smoker can stop smoking. A drinker can stop drinking. A drug user can stop using drugs. But a sexual offender CAN NEVER get the images of past deeds out of their minds. They cannot stop the mental images that will come to their minds in the future. Satan will never stop attacking their minds or fantasies until they strike out again and harm another innocent.

Has anybody made the connection of what we are talking about here to pornography? Why is that so destructive? Because it shows images of acts that should not be watched, but it also opens doors that can NEVER be closed once opened. The TV can be turned off, the book or magazine can be thrown away, but the images can never be erased from the mind.

I am so very glad that there are people who just don't understand---because that means that they have never had to endure being the victim of a sexual crime, nor have they had to endure the pain of a loved one being the victim of a sexual crime.

I don't wish that on anybody. However, I cannot deny this one truth---this type of perversion in NOT like being a drug addict. There is no cure.

If you think there is a cure, and that a pedophile can refrain from committing any future acts, then would you be willing to risk the innocence of a child to prove your theory? Would you be willing to stake the innocence of a child that you know--or any child for that matter--on your belief?

Not me. There is no child on this earth that I would be willing to offer as a sacrifice to prove if a "former" pedophile can truly be rehabilitated and reformed.

By the way, I am not a closed-minded person. I had no agenda when writing this. I just wrote from the heart with no anger or malice. I do know what forgiveness is, because I have forgiven what should have been unforgivable. I do know what love is, because I have loved one that I should have been excused from loving. But I know the Lord says to forgive all things (I have) and to love all (I did) and that vengeance will be His (and it will).

Edited January 19, 2013 by Tough Grits
TYPO