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mikbone

Ppi?

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I justify it on the basis of the Church Handbook of Instructions that says they are to be done yearly.

Correction it says "at least once a year." That is a minimum limit not a maximum one

I also base it on common sense -- its a pure waste of time.

That would be an opinion... Those with the keys and authority over the quorum in question appear to be of a different one

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Correction it says "at least once a year." That is a minimum limit not a maximum one

I'm gonna quote the exact phrase one more time for those who have difficulty with the interpretation of english.

"Where possible, they visit or interview quorum or group members at least once a year."

Notice how the phrase begins. Where possible - The writers of the handbook recognize that it is not possible to to even have yearly meetings with some of the quorum members.

Next, you may notice that the option is given to either visit or interview each member. This wording was put there for a reason. Perhaps some of the quorum members will benefit more from a visit than an interview. Perhaps we should be using the spirit to guide us. Finally the format of the visit or interview are not dictated. It is interesting that you can find power point presentations online of how to correctly perform these PPI's.

Finally, at least once a year. The majority of people whom read this phrase will interpret the meaning to be annually. But in some circumstances you may be guided to have more frequent follow-up.

In my opinion this phrase does not justify monthly PPIs. Monthly or Daily PPIs to me actually seem like a program that Lucifer would have employed to make sure that we would be following his regulations.

D&C 29: 34-35 - We are agents unto ourselves.

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Good morning mnn727. I hope you are having a good day! :)

I justify it on the basis of the Church Handbook of Instructions that says they are to be done yearly.

Thanks for answering!

OK, as estradling75 pointed out the Handbook instructs us at a minimum to have yearly interviews. The Church is obviously providing local priesthood leaders leeway as to how they implement priesthood interviews.

I also base it on common sense -- its a pure waste of time: 3 people (EQ presidency) interviewing 40-100 people (members of the quorum) every single month? maybe you think that's reasonable - but most people do not, especially for an organisation that runs with no paid positions at the Ward or Stake level.

My point is not to discuss specific instances because I already know specific cases are going to vary. My point speaks precisely to the fact that there are variances in quorums. The general guidelines are to do yearly interviews. However, these are general guidelines. It is wholly reasonable to assume that the general guidelines will not be sufficient for every quorum. Thus, local priesthood leaders are empowered to implement eternal principles within their jurisdiction based upon the specific circumstances of the quorum and also the specific guidance a priesthood leader receives from God.

So, perhaps in your ward doing monthly interviews is a "pure waste of time". It is up to local priesthood leaders to make that decision. But, it doesn't make sense to claim that doing monthly priesthood interviews is a pure waste of time in every situation.

Regards,

Finrock

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I'm gonna quote the exact phrase one more time for those who have difficulty with the interpretation of english.

"Where possible, they visit or interview quorum or group members at least once a year."

Notice how the phrase begins. Where possible - The writers of the handbook recognize that it is not possible to to even have yearly meetings with some of the quorum members.

Next, you may notice that the option is given to either visit or interview each member. This wording was put there for a reason. Perhaps some of the quorum members will benefit more from a visit than an interview. Perhaps we should be using the spirit to guide us. Finally the format of the visit or interview are not dictated. It is interesting that you can find power point presentations online of how to correctly perform these PPI's.

Finally, at least once a year. The majority of people whom read this phrase will interpret the meaning to be annually. But in some circumstances you may be guided to have more frequent follow-up.

In my opinion this phrase does not justify monthly PPIs. Monthly or Daily PPIs to me actually seem like a program that Lucifer would have employed to make sure that we would be following his regulations.

Who is saying it justifies??? We are saying that the Handbook can't be used to exclude monthly PPIs. You can't take the handbook and wave it under whomever is the presiding authority and say "The Book says you can't DO this!!!" Because as you point out the handbook is recommending at least once a year but leaves it in the hands of the presiding authority to do it more or less as the needs of his group dictate.

Bottom line is the handbook does not get you off the hook... and any appeals to it fails as a means of overriding the local authority.

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That would be an opinion... Those with the keys and authority over the quorum in question appear to be of a different one

I'll guarantee there was no inspiration from God on that one.

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But, it doesn't make sense to claim that doing monthly priesthood interviews is a pure waste of time in every situation.

I do and will continue to do so. In EVERY ward in the world it would be a pure waste of time to hold a PPI with every member of the Elders Quorum every month. That would be one request I would refuse.

Come on people, use your head on this one. Can anyone give me any rational use for this? Just because someone is called as an EQ President, that doesn't mean God inspires everything they do.

Edited by mnn727

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I don't think it's about whether people agree or disagree with you about monthly PPI's being a good idea. I think it's more people doubting that you have absolute knowledge that it wasn't inspired.

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I do and will continue to do so. In EVERY ward in the world it would be a pure waste of time to hold a PPI with every member of the Elders Quorum every month. That would be one request I would refuse.

Come on people, use your head on this one. Can anyone give me any rational use for this?

To see if we will do all things the Lord commands. Or to see if we will try to rationalize, justify and otherwise try to do things our way. You know one of the main reason we are here

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To see if we will do all things the Lord commands. Or to see if we will try to rationalize, justify and otherwise try to do things our way. You know one of the main reason we are here

So when the Elders Quorum President speaks the thinking has been done?

I don't follow blindly, we have been told not to follow blindly by many Prophets and Apostles.

Lets get real on this people.Someone over you says you must now start interviewing the same 15-35 people (1/3 of your EQ members)once a month every month for as long as you are under this 'leader'. You have a full time job and a family, your calling also has other duties besides -- are you just going to blindly follow this persons instructions?

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So when the Elders Quorum President speaks the thinking has been done?

I don't follow blindly, we have been told not to follow blindly by many Prophets and Apostles.

Congratulations on strawmanning down "Follow all the Lords Commands" which is scriptural and wise to "blind obedience" You beat an argument that I never made.

Had I meant follow all the Prophets and Local leaders blindly that is what I would have said that.

Simple fact in the Church the Lord does choose men to be prophets and local leaders. It is wise to listen to them, but they are also capable of being wrong. Which is why, as you correctly pointed out, that we are not instructed to follow blindly. We are instructed to pray and get a personal witness. That personal witness is what we follow.

If the Lord tells yes or if Lord tells us no then our path clear. But sometimes the Lord waits to give us an answer. Perhaps his is waiting to see how we respond to instructions given through his chosen. Or perhaps he is saying you have an answer and you need to act on it. In this case, when the Lord has not answered yet, it seems wise to me to follow the leaders until he does. Perhaps you would consider it 'blind obedience?

Lets get real on this people.Someone over you says you must now start interviewing the same 15-35 people (1/3 of your EQ members)once a month every month for as long as you are under this 'leader'. You have a full time job and a family, your calling also has other duties besides -- are you just going to blindly follow this persons instructions?

All nice logical and rational reasons... And they all go out the window if it is what the Lord wills.

Would it be hard... yes absolutely... But so was getting Israel out of Egypt. The Lord willed it and supported Moses's effort up to an including miracles to make it happen.

It is also possible that the Lord gives a command that he knows we can't do to test our faith. Like Abraham being commanded to sacrifice Issac. We know the Lord did not ultimately require Abraham to follow that commandment to the bitter end. But he did expect Abraham to do everything he could due fulfill that command right up to the point it was revoked.

Do we have the faith like unto Moses, or Abraham or Nephi or any of the others that did hard things because the Lord commanded... Or do we get dragged around murmuring and complaining like Laman and Lemuel?

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You're basing your argument on the Lord being the one who commanded this.

I'm saying its the EQ Presidents idea, not the Lords.

I do not believe the Lord commands stupid things.

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You're basing your argument on the Lord being the one who commanded this.

I'm saying its the EQ Presidents idea, not the Lords.

I do not believe the Lord commands stupid things.

There is no functional difference. If you sustain your leaders, you do what they request, even if it's inconvenient.

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You're basing your argument on the Lord being the one who commanded this.

I'm saying its the EQ Presidents idea, not the Lords.

I do not believe the Lord commands stupid things.

Stupid according to who? You? Because the Lord's ways are not our ways... his means are not our means. That which is wise unto God is foolishness unto men.

Until you get on your knees and humbly ask the Lord (I know this example isn't yours personally but I use it for an example) then the will of the Lord might be judged by you to be a stupid thing. And if your humble prayers come back no you can move forward with confidence.

You complained about being blindly obedient... The flip side of that is not being blindly stubborn thinking we already know the what the will of the Lord will be.

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Interesting. It seems some think sustaining a leader means only when we think they are doing what the Lord wants, or doing what we think is a righteous and worthwhile thing.

To me, sustaining a leader means even when we don't agree (and as long as it isn't actually harmful), then I follow their counsel. That means that sometimes I follow someone who gives counsel or instructions that are wrong, flawed, or just plain stupid. But, then, I'm not perfect either, so I thank all those who have sustained me in my callings when I've done things that are wrong, flawed or stupid.

It's clear, to me, that the guide says that these meetings can be as infrequent or often as the president thinks is needed. He thinks they are needed monthly. You think they are not. If you have expressed your concerns and thoughts to him and he still chooses to go ahead with this, then as his counselor, you should sustain that decision. He may realize after a month or so that you are right--or he may think that these are truly needed based on the input he is receiving from these interviews.

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Interesting. It seems some think sustaining a leader means only when we think they are doing what the Lord wants, or doing what we think is a righteous and worthwhile thing.

To me, sustaining a leader means even when we don't agree (and as long as it isn't actually harmful), then I follow their counsel. That means that sometimes I follow someone who gives counsel or instructions that are wrong, flawed, or just plain stupid. But, then, I'm not perfect either, so I thank all those who have sustained me in my callings when I've done things that are wrong, flawed or stupid.

It's clear, to me, that the guide says that these meetings can be as infrequent or often as the president thinks is needed. He thinks they are needed monthly. You think they are not. If you have expressed your concerns and thoughts to him and he still chooses to go ahead with this, then as his counselor, you should sustain that decision. He may realize after a month or so that you are right--or he may think that these are truly needed based on the input he is receiving from these interviews.

Since I'm the OP I'm gonna answer this. But I have grown weary of this thread...

We are not required to follow our leaders over a cliff. You and I both know that incorrect decisions have been made in the past by local authorities. And even many general authorities were excommunicated in the early LDS church history. Your above argument leaves no room for anyone to come to their leaders with legitimate concerns. I am the the first councilor in the EQ, not the first follower. Why do you suppose that they chose the word councilor?

When I spoke in private about my concerns of monthly PPIs with my EQP and discussed the pertinent portion of the Handbook, he expressed great relief because he felt that he had been failing at his calling because he was not able to perform these frequent interviews and he realized that they had not achieved the desired effect of increasing HT numbers. We discussed ways that we could work smarter not harder and are making some news plans for the quorum.

My original desire for this thread was to see if anyone on this site was doing monthly PPIs, if they were effective. And where this idea originated from.

How many PPIs have you had as a member from your quorum leader over the years as an average? Cuz the number of PPIs that I have had during my 25+ years is exactly one.

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Interesting. It seems some think sustaining a leader means only when we think they are doing what the Lord wants, or doing what we think is a righteous and worthwhile thing.

To me, sustaining a leader means even when we don't agree (and as long as it isn't actually harmful), then I follow their counsel. That means that sometimes I follow someone who gives counsel or instructions that are wrong, flawed, or just plain stupid. But, then, I'm not perfect either, so I thank all those who have sustained me in my callings when I've done things that are wrong, flawed or stupid.

It's clear, to me, that the guide says that these meetings can be as infrequent or often as the president thinks is needed. He thinks they are needed monthly. You think they are not. If you have expressed your concerns and thoughts to him and he still chooses to go ahead with this, then as his counselor, you should sustain that decision. He may realize after a month or so that you are right--or he may think that these are truly needed based on the input he is receiving from these interviews.

Here, I helped you read my post again.

And he didn't ask you to go over a cliff. He asked you to do interviews.

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That means that sometimes I follow someone who gives counsel or instructions that are wrong, flawed, or just plain stupid.

Really?

If I get the impression that my instructors are recommending to me that I do something stupid. I do not do it. I don't deify them openly, but I do speak my mind and concerns. If I am wrong in my assumptions, I like to learn the error in my thinking.

With prayer, the spirit, the light of Christ and council with our brethren, we should never feel that we are doing something wrong or stupid. I certainly have not.

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You know when trying to discuss the practical applications of Faith, Obedience, and Sacrifice in real world settings where they actually mean something... And repeatedly getting back that people think I am talking about Blind, stupid, lemming-like behavior... and do mean repeatedly... Pretty much just tells me I am pounding my head against the wall... Seeya in other threads

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Debate is healthy, but man, you guys hammered this to death with at times the only point being to prove the other wrong and nit pick on the smallest words.

 

A big thanks from someone new in an elders quorum, looking for answers and running into this. That wasn't sarcastic ... I learned a lot about the general views about what and what not to do. The way in which some of the answers were presented are deplorable however and cause others like me, running into this article a great deal of confusion.

 

The whole time I am thinking to myself, why are we having this conversation over the internet? Is this really the place to be dealing with these kind of issues? Stand up and talk to your leadership about these kinds of things. If you don't agree with the preaching then say something about it. If you don't think your EP is correct, talk to the bishop, if you don't think the bishop is correct talk to the stake president. However don't be offended if they shoot it straight with you and let you know what's up.

 

In all my actions in life I play by a simple rule. Would I be conducting myself in this kind of a way if the Savior was in the room? Am I perfect? NOOOOOO. I have many things to be ashamed of. If there is one thing a good upbringing, the church and the military has taught me though it is how to conduct myself in a professional manner and confront things like a man. There is nothing more honorable then genuinely voicing your concern in the proper context.

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Wow, I've been attending EQ for almost 20 years and have never had a PPI.  I was injured a couple years ago and the EQ pres dropped by my house, but that's as close as it gets.

 

Maybe this stuff has come up in leadership training because last month my EQ president announced he was going to do them, but it's been radio silence since.   

Edited by garryw

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Thank you all for your thoughts and insights, I have found them very helpful, especially after the multitude of ideas and instructions given regarding PPI's in my quorum meeting today.

 

As people strive to fulfill and magnify their callings, they can sometimes run faster than they (or those that support them) have strength (Mosiah 4:27). This is in many ways admirable but I expect over time, experience and wisdom will give them a more balanced perspective. Hopefully there aren't too many causalities along the way.

 

Thankfully the Lord expects us to study it out (D&C 9:8) and use wisdom in what we can do.

 

Personally I like the idea of my priesthood leader caring enough about me, to visit. In my 30 years in the church I still vividly remember, as a new convert, my Elders quorum president walking up my parents long steep drive to visit me. I had no idea what a PPI was, but the impression someone cared has remained with me and helped guide me all these years.

 

And I think that is the real principle - we are each others brother, and a PPI can be a great way to strengthen that bond.

 

I feel the greatest respect we can have for our leaders (actually everyone) is to be honest, but in a respectful way that encourages open communication. Of course this is not always easy nor even always possible. But isn't it great that we have these challenges in the church that help us to learn and grow, even if it is to remember when the roles get reversed.

 

I hope people can be forgiving of the dumb and not always inspired decisions I have made in my callings. But luckily I have had many wise counselors, leaders and younger people to gently remind me there might be a better way. Just like that meaningful EQ President and his recommendation to do so many PPI's; perhaps there might be a quorum member that needs that degree of attention, but unlikely they all do.

 

Whatever is done, don't make it a statistical exercise.

 

But at least every year, hopefully we can all be deserving of at least one caring PPI. And, yes, please make it a visit.

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