What do you think of a stay-at-home mother who tells her working husband the following?

[MorningStar]

No one. I have a chip on my shoulder :), and I'm looking to see if anyone buys into that. If so, I would like to explore the idea. (Despite my shoulder chip, I'm not looking for a fight.)

If I have a chip on my shoulder, I just eat it.

Edited March 1, 2013 by MorningStar
Potato or chocolate chip - doesn't matter. I just eat it.

[Vort]

I think these two would be equivalent to each other.

The wife does no cleaning or meal preparation because she has a crippling addiction to Mario Kart. She would much rather do that all day long. The husband leaves every day while she's playing Mario Kart and when he comes home, she is still playing Mario Kart.

I wouldn't blame the husband one bit if he said, "Have you done a single productive thing today? What gives? This needs to change."

Now let's say a husband loses his job and rather than looking for one, he plays Mario Kart while his stay at home wife continues to clean around him. The unpaid bills are mounting, their utilities might be shut off, and they get a three day notice to pay their rent or vacate.

I would also be understandable if the wive became extremely frustrated because of his refusal to even look for a job.

I doubt though that there are many spouses who flat out refuse to do very important things that their families need.

Let's change things somewhat from what you describe above:

The wife is not a very good organizer. She wants to keep a clean and organized home and take great care of the children, but she is easily overwhelmed. She doesn't really know where to start in cleaning the pigsty of a house, and she gets discouraged when she digs in for a few hours, only to find little visible result. She excoriates herself for her failures, so she's not self-justifying. She wishes someone would come along and teach her the self-discipline and organization necessary to run a household, but her family members either aren't very good at that or aren't approachable. She's too ashamed to ask for help from Church friends or leaders. She has read books, but doesn't know how to put them into practice. She has developed many self-defeating habits, such as overt avoidance of necessary tasks, and she recognizes this fact, but again, doesn't know how to overcome them. She beats herself up for her weakness and lack of self-discipline, but ultimately she just wants to figure out how to do what she's supposed to do. She's tired of the self-hatred and occasionally blows up at her husband for his incessant criticisms.

The husband is in exactly the same boat (or an equivalent sailing vessel of some sort) as the wife described above.

[Guest]

Well, I'd be interested to hear where Dravin is coming from, even with the acknowledged issues behind his opinion.

I guess for me, I can still fulfill my role in a home that isn't always tidy. We've lived in various states of neatness according to our circumstances, but never in squalor. That's another issue altogether. I happen to think that part of my homemaking duties are making the money he earns go as far as possible, for whatever that's worth (and I'm pretty good at it too. . . thankfully.).

It would be harder for my husband to protect and provide without work (or enough work, or work that pays a living wage). The trick there is figuring out what a livable wage is. Many of the things we see as needs are actually luxuries. We live pretty simply and cheaply and don't feel deprived, except that right now we don't have any kind of health or dental coverage, or any other benefits offered by a traditional job. That's a situation that both of us are finding increasingly unacceptable.

[Guest]

Vort, I'm starting to think that you have my house bugged. Except if I had a few uninterrupted hours every day to work at it, my house would be spotless. I don't. And I have un-doers following behind me as I try to do.

[MorningStar]

Let's change things somewhat from what you describe above:

The wife is not a very good organizer. She wants to keep a clean and organized home and take great care of the children, but she is easily overwhelmed. She doesn't really know where to start in cleaning the pigsty of a house, and she gets discouraged when she digs in for a few hours, only to find little visible result. She excoriates herself for her failures, so she's not self-justifying. She wishes someone would come along and teach her the self-discipline and organization necessary to run a household, but her family members either aren't very good at that or aren't approachable. She's too ashamed to ask for help from Church friends or leaders. She has read books, but doesn't know how to put them into practice. She has developed many self-defeating habits, such as overt avoidance of necessary tasks, and she recognizes this fact, but again, doesn't know how to overcome them. She beats herself up for her weakness and lack of self-discipline, but ultimately she just wants to figure out how to do what she's supposed to do. She's tired of the self-hatred and occasionally blows up at her husband for his incessant criticisms.

The husband is in exactly the same boat (or an equivalent sailing vessel of some sort) as the wife described above.

If either spouse is truly trying their hardest, there shouldn't be criticism, but encouragement, listening, brainstorming, planning, etc. In the housekeeping situation, it's very annoying and stressful when you can't find anything, when you're tripping on stuff, etc. In the job situation, it's a different kind of stress - wondering if you're still going to have your pig sty. :)

[Guest]

Vort, I just have to say as an annoying, know-it-all little sister in the Gospel, that if this is based on issues going on in your home, it would be far better to pray on it and talk it out with your wife than to look for validation of your viewpoint on the Internet. Add in "hypocritical" to the above adjectives, because I've done it plenty.

[Vort]

Vort, I just have to say as an annoying, know-it-all little sister in the Gospel, that if this is based on issues going on in your home, it would be far better to pray on it and talk it out with your wife than to look for validation of your viewpoint on the Internet. Add in "hypocritical" to the above adjectives, because I've done it plenty.

A sincere thanks for your concern. I generally go to great lengths to avoid discussing highly personal topics on this (or any other) discussion list. Rest assured that Sister Vort bears little resemblance to the picture I have painted. This is certainly not about her or us. But it has applied and continues to apply to people I care about.

[MorningStar]

A sincere thanks for your concern. I generally go to great lengths to avoid discussing highly personal topics on this (or any other) discussion list. Rest assured that Sister Vort bears little resemblance to the picture I have painted. This is certainly not about her or us. But it has applied and continues to apply to people I care about.

Wait - this isn't about Mrs. Vort being a slob? Oh, that's right. Your house always looks nice. In fact, I'll see you guys at your house tomorrow. Woo hoo!

[MorningStar]

I know a family right now that is struggling because the husband has terrible anxiety and has difficulty staying employed because of it. His wife has been very kind about it, as stressed as she is. He sees doctors when he can and has taken medication, but it hasn't been helpful enough and now they have no insurance. It's frustrating for her, but she knows this is not at all how he wants things to be.

[Guest]

I'm in a very similar situation, MorningStar. It's been incredibly painful and difficult for both of us.

[MorningStar]

I'm in a very similar situation, MorningStar. It's been incredibly painful and difficult for both of us.

I'm so sorry. I don't think anything is harder on a husband than not being able to support his family.

[Guest]

Thanks. The thing is, he works SO hard, all the time. He's just not getting much return from it, for a lot of complicated reasons. We are very blessed. We have more than our daily bread. We have everything we need. I just pray like crazy that no one gets hurt or seriously sick, and that we can retire someday. Mostly I pray for his happiness. I want desperately for him to be happy and fulfilled. That's what tears at my heart the most.

[Vort]

Wait - this isn't about Mrs. Vort being a slob? Oh, that's right. Your house always looks nice. In fact, I'll see you guys at your house tomorrow. Woo hoo!

Yeah, well...I wish that were the case. But it's at least as much my fault as hers, seeing as how the house is still unfinished. Maybe it's time to give Bro. MorningStar a call again.

[MorningStar]

That would be awesome. But when he gets home, I might be playing Mario Kart ......

[mikbone]

I like what you did here Vort.

I have seen what you are talking about all over the place. Couples at church, in the workplace...

It is interesting when you see a person in a relationship and then let themselves go. It can be either the man or the woman.

It is even more interesting when a couple breaks up or has a divorce. Then the guy will try harder to be more successful or the woman will lose that extra 40 pounds that she gained...

We should do our best to set high standards and goals for ourselves and should be able to expect the same from our spouses. No one is going to ever get to become as God is by making excuses for themselves and putting their life on cruise control.

Life can get tough though. I wish that my wife would be able to have a delicious dinner ready when I get home, and a wardrobe full of clean freshly ironed clothes every day... But then I realize that she had to get up 4x with the newborn last night and she is also getting over a nasty viral illness...

What is important, I think, is that as a couple we do our best to uplift instead of tear down our spouses.

We should all probably go watch Johnny Lingo again.

It is also very important to realize that Lucifer hates to see successful couples. He works hard to destroy families. It probably brings him great satisfaction. Sometimes we just have to realize who the bad guy is.

Edited March 1, 2013 by mikbone

[Wingnut]

"Do you understand how much pressure it puts me under to live with such an unpredictable job situation?"

With the given implied tone, this is the only question I see having justified validity as worded above. As Eowyn (and maybe others?) has mentioned, financial issues affect a lot more than vacuuming the rug does. Living paycheck-to-paycheck is hard enough, but not knowing if or when a paycheck is coming? It's incredibly stressful, and I can see this particul statement being made in a moment of frustration. The rest sound nagging and ungrateful to me.

Does anyone think that women are naturally more righteous or spiritual than men,

I think that many people who listen to and/or give Sacrament meeting talks on Mothers Day and Fathers Day think this, unfortunately.

and are therefore morally allowed as the superior spouse to criticize their husbands' performance,

Nope.

while men as the inferior spouse must never do any such thing toward their wives?

Neither should criticize, in the given context. Constructive and helpful criticism in the proper setting is appropriate, but the scenarios you have set up are more nagging than anything.

You know what's unfair? I will never be laid-off from housekeeping.

That's a pink slip I'd volunteer for!

The wife is not a very good organizer. She wants to keep a clean and organized home and take great care of the children, but she is easily overwhelmed. She doesn't really know where to start in cleaning the pigsty of a house, and she gets discouraged when she digs in for a few hours, only to find little visible result. She excoriates herself for her failures, so she's not self-justifying. She wishes someone would come along and teach her the self-discipline and organization necessary to run a household, but her family members either aren't very good at that or aren't approachable. She's too ashamed to ask for help from Church friends or leaders. She has read books, but doesn't know how to put them into practice. She has developed many self-defeating habits, such as overt avoidance of necessary tasks, and she recognizes this fact, but again, doesn't know how to overcome them. She beats herself up for her weakness and lack of self-discipline, but ultimately she just wants to figure out how to do what she's supposed to do. She's tired of the self-hatred and occasionally blows up at her husband for his incessant criticisms.

Okay, now I'm a little creeped out. Seriously.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Wingnut

[NightSG]

Like dravin my thoughts remain the same. Such a woman does not want to be married.

And I've got the final decree to prove it.

(FWIW, I slept in every day because I was taking evening classes and working graveyard shift. I didn't get much done around the house because on my days off, she was asleep when I was awake. Didn't matter to her; sleeping in the daytime was a sign of laziness, and refusing to rearrange my sleep schedule to "normal" two days a week before having to go back to the opposite was a sign that I didn't care enough.)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

This is the first time I have been on today, so I haven't read the related thread yet.

I would not speak to my husband that way, ever! I have been in that situation...stay-at-home mom with an entreprenuer husband...many times I wanted to say some of those things, LOL! But I didn't. I prayed like my life depended on it, and then I tried to uplift my husband.

Now, he has a more traditional job, and we both work in order to make ends meet...I realize how well we really were doing back in those days. Alas...

What is important, I think, is that as a couple we do our best to uplift instead of tear down our spouses.

We should all probably go watch Johnny Lingo again.

Yep, as much as we make fun of Johnny Lingo, there is truth there...building each other up is much more productive than the opposite.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

The wife is not a very good organizer. She wants to keep a clean and organized home and take great care of the children, but she is easily overwhelmed. She doesn't really know where to start in cleaning the pigsty of a house, and she gets discouraged when she digs in for a few hours, only to find little visible result. She excoriates herself for her failures, so she's not self-justifying. She wishes someone would come along and teach her the self-discipline and organization necessary to run a household, but her family members either aren't very good at that or aren't approachable. She's too ashamed to ask for help from Church friends or leaders. She has read books, but doesn't know how to put them into practice. She has developed many self-defeating habits, such as overt avoidance of necessary tasks, and she recognizes this fact, but again, doesn't know how to overcome them. She beats herself up for her weakness and lack of self-discipline, but ultimately she just wants to figure out how to do what she's supposed to do. She's tired of the self-hatred and occasionally blows up at her husband for his incessant criticisms.

Since this describes me except that my sweet husband doesn't criticise me...I can tell you that perhaps there are underlying issues at work. Mabye not for everyone in this situation, but for me there certainly are.

My abuser was an absolute neat freak...I'm not kidding.. as a child (under 10), I made all four beds in the house with hospital corners! Washed the dishes, scrubbed the tub...(my abuser had been injured at work and was the stay at home parent, and my mom was working). And we will not even talk about the punishment if those things were not done properly (the explanation is x-rated)

I get "triggered" if the house is "too clean"...and I get "triggered" if it is "too messy" as well.

I know the Relief Society ladies would be happy to come over and help me clean, but I would rather die than ask them for two reasons (and both are prideful, I know that)

One---I would be embarrassed and I don't trust they could understand the deep underlying emotional issues at work here.

Two---because many of them read my blog, or I have told them personally...they know that I am going through a really difficult time...and yet, it does not occur to them to simply be a friend...(call occasionally, or send an email, ask me how I am at church). This makes me feel they are more concerned about the state of my house, than my emotional well-being.

I will get it figured out on my own...thanks. I will keep going to therapy and face my demons, and I will get my house in order in due time...

Rhetorical question...which is harder to learn to organize/clean a home or to learn to truly love one another? And which one has more importance to our eternal welfare.

(Please note, I am having a bad week related to beating myself up over this issue, so if you--anyone--chose to respond to this at all, be gentle--you wouldn't want me to need an extra therapy session on your account would you? :))

[mrmarklin]

Not sure how many of these remarks would be justified if the guy is holding a job!

A person who goes to work late, and doesn't work hard gets fired. The guy wouldn't be going to work every day. If the guy is a bum and can't hold a job, she should leave, of course.

[mrmarklin]

Assume the husband is not refusing to work. Assume that, as in the case of the stay-at-home mom being criticized by her husband, he just is not very good at performing his duty (in this case, earning money), and shows only incremental improvement after years of practice.

I guess the problem with this assumption is that these sorts of things are manifest during the courtship period. Why did the woman marry the guy in the first place, probably knowing these characteristics about the man? Usually money issues are sorted well before any sort of marraige committment is made. Because basics such as where to live, how much the couple will have to live on etc. are necessary to even get a start to living together after marraige. If a woman ignores this, a pox on her!

[mrmarklin]

If an otherwise good hard working person loses his job, that's just one of the problems that come up in life.

Having known several couples in this situation, the wives have been universally supportive.

[Just_A_Guy]

Does anyone think that women are, as Paul puts it, the "weaker member", and are therefore morally allowed as the inferior spouse to criticize their husbands' performance, while men as the superior spouse must never do any such thing toward their wives?

Does anyone think that women are naturally more righteous or spiritual than men, and are therefore morally allowed as the superior spouse to criticize their husbands' performance, while men as the inferior spouse must never do any such thing toward their wives?

Vort, I'm going to step outside of your specific hypotheticals and address what I think is your underlying concern:

Yes. There is a double-standard, in society and perhaps even more pronouncedly in the Church, with regard to the way males are supposed to regard their wives' perceived shortcomings, versus the way females are supposed to regard their husbands' perceived shortcomings. I think you and I may have had this conversation before, actually.

IMHO there is far more social tolerance for groups of women who get together and complain about their husbands, than there would be for groups of men who get together and complain about their wives. Watch your average sitcom. The man who speaks dismissively of his wife draws boos. The woman who speaks dismissively of her husband draws laughter. The churlishness and toxicity of the behavior is equal; but our socially-conditioned reactions differ based on the gender of the offender.

[Vort]

Yep, as much as we make fun of Johnny Lingo, there is truth there...building each other up is much more productive than the opposite.

I never make fun of Johnny Lingo, except perhaps in an affectionate way. However early-BYU-productions poor you (generic "you") think it may be, it was a beautiful story that positively influenced by view of women, love, and marriage.

I guess the problem with this assumption is that these sorts of things are manifest during the courtship period. Why did the woman marry the guy in the first place, probably knowing these characteristics about the man?

I don't understand. A man and woman marry at college in their early to mid 20s. What does either of them know of his or her own work abilities and habits, much less the other person's?

Vort, I'm going to step outside of your specific hypotheticals and address what I think is your underlying concern:

Yes. There is a double-standard, in society and perhaps even more pronouncedly in the Church, with regard to the way males are supposed to regard their wives' perceived shortcomings, versus the way females are supposed to regard their husbands' perceived shortcomings. I think you and I may have had this conversation before, actually.

IMHO there is far more social tolerance for groups of women who get together and complain about their husbands, than there would be for groups of men who get together and complain about their wives. Watch your average sitcom. The man who speaks dismissively of his wife draws boos. The woman who speaks dismissively of her husband draws laughter. The churlishness and toxicity of the behavior is equal; but our socially-conditioned reactions differ based on the gender of the offender.

This is indeed a longstanding pebble in my shoe, and doubtless has something to do with my questions. Thanks for your response. But I think I'm more specifically looking for how the spouses themselves react. Am I wrong to think that the woman has as much duty to love and support her faltering husband who often fails to adequately uphold his husbandly duties as the man has to support his faltering wife, assuming in each case the faltering spouse has not given up? Because this seems one area where the double standard is blatant.

Somehow, a man's failure to succeed and excel at his job is often considered far more grave and less forgivable than a woman's failure to be a good homemaker -- even though a strong argument can be made that, since failure in the home is worse than failure elsewhere, it is the homemaker's failure, not the breadwinner's, that is the more serious and awful of the two. The responses on these two threads have been far less along those lines than I would have thought, though, so maybe that's a positive.

[Wingnut]

Somehow, a man's failure to succeed and excel at his job is often considered far more grave and less forgivable than a woman's failure to be a good homemaker -- even though a strong argument can be made that, since failure in the home is worse than failure elsewhere, it is the homemaker's failure, not the breadwinner's, that is the more serious and awful of the two. The responses on these two threads have been far less along those lines than I would have thought, though, so maybe that's a positive.

I'd like to point out that there is a difference between a homemaker, a housewife, and a housekeeper. Many use these terms interchangeably, but I think there are subtle differences.