Death and Euthanasia

[Traveler]

Like many I have some confusion concerning death. I think of myself as a “pro-life” individual. From my religious background I believe life is sacred and a divine gift to be respected and honored. As a scientist life is fascinating, interesting and difficult to define. As a person there are many things that life represents that I do not understand and I do not know how to qualify or quantify.

I have been present and trying to have an active role during several deaths. One was my beloved Father and mentor. It is his passing that has most affected me. Not in an emotional way because I do not fear death nor am I concerned about my father’s current station. My concerns lies with things I did during his final days and moments. For example I was very diligent in having him take his meds. Something he did not want to do at all and in retrospect – it did not make any difference in outcome – except that I was making the assumption that it was the correct thing to do –something I learned from him. (Kind of ironic).

There is something I have witnessed in several cases of death and in my father’s death I witnessed the phenomenon for several days. This phenomenon I will describe as those dying described in various ways as something they were experiencing that was something that I seemed to “feel” but not with what I would describe as my physical senses – although they testified that they were experiencing with their physical senses. This phenomenon, as best as I can understand were angles encouraging and helping the individuals with their death experience. Like I said with my father this phenomenon took place at various time for several days.

I am not debating this experience – what concerns me is that what I seem to be doing and encouraging those suffering to be in great conflict with angles that perhaps understand much more than I. The truth is that my father starved to death because of difficulty eating. We administered amounts of morphine to help him with his pain but the truth is that he was suffering. Since the event I have questioned my views of euthanasia. At one time of my life I was strongly against any effort to assist someone in dying but I wonder at this point – We do not handle or deal with death very well at all – my question is especially from a religious standpoint – have we gone “overboard” with this trying to prevent death. I also find it interesting that from a religious standpoint we seem to be in conflict with angles and that there seems – at least to me – to be very little revelation concerning what to do as we or others approach the final moments before death. The only thing I have done to which I believe was beneficial to the whole process – was in giving a priesthood blessing but this is an LDS thing and I wonder how others of different faith would feel about such a thing.

The Traveler

[Vort]

Clarification, please: What does your post have to do with euthanasia?

[NeuroTypical]

I figure the term 'euthanasia' doesn't really belong, unless an actual action is taken which hastens death. For example, administering a drug which stops breathing.

Declining to force medication when patient refuses the medication - not euthanasia. Not inserting a feeding tube when someone refuses to eat - not euthanasia. Heck, even administering pain medication, resulting in loss of appetite, resulting in not eating, resulting in organs shutting down for lack of nourishment, resulting in death - not euthanasia in my eyes.

There is a time for things. We have some ability to make things not happen when it's time to happen. The wisdom in doing so is very subjective. It's hard enough to righteously judge within your own stewardship - much harder to judge someone else.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Traveler]

Clarification, please: What does your post have to do with euthanasia?

The idea and concept that a religious person that respects life may have a moral responsibility to actually assist a dying person - not just with efforts to save their life if such efforts fail; but to assist them in dying with less suffering and pain.

The Traveler

[Vort]

The idea and concept that a religious person that respects life may have a moral responsibility to actually assist a dying person - not just with efforts to save their life if such efforts fail; but to assist them in dying with less suffering and pain.

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any realistic situation where positively assisting someone's death (as opposed to assisting an execution) is morally acceptable. A possible exception would be a sacrificial abortion to save the mother's life, but that's an edge case and not what you're talking about.

[annewandering]

Ok how about tossing this in? What about the fact that many nearing death are given large doses of morphine. For pain. Or is it? I have found out since our son died that many babies just stop breathing who have been given morphine because it inhibits the instinct to breathe. It seems some doctors give large doses of morphine knowing that is likely to to suppress breathing.

Our baby was given morphine. He did slowly stop breathing. Was he euthanized? I dont know but I do know he died a very gentle death in the arms of his family perhaps a few days earlier than he would have naturally.

I am NOT in favor of euthanizing people but I am very much in favor of peaceful deaths if possible. It is not an easy problem to resolve unless you have no heart at all.

[Irishcolleen]

I hear you. It is difficult. I consider myself wholeheartedly pro-life, but I've wondered about euthanasia. I have always felt that God knows when our number is up and will take us home in His time. Nowadays we do so much to prolong life, it makes me wonder if are usurping God's role. At the same time I know God is powerful enough to bring death at the right time even with the most intervention.

This is such an emotional issue. My dad is chronically and severely ill. We have had eight hospitalizations in 6 months. My father has type 1 diabetes, heart and kidney failure. His arteries are so blocked that open heart surgery wouldn't help as there is no good artery to attach a graft to. He also has lost blood flow to his intestines and required surgery to remover gangrenous intestine. Each time he has been in crisis he has survived, but he is home-bound, and in pain. I hate to see him suffer and at times I pray for God to take him home. I just assume there is still something God is using him for on earth that I don't understand. I do wish he didn't have to suffer.

Sometimes I too have wondered if there is a place for euthanasia. But, I think when I feel that I am having an emotional reaction to watching my dad suffer. At this point I do not see a justification for euthanasia in the Bible. The Bible says that there are times we will suffer. So I have to stay pro-life even when I feel differently, because what I know is more reliable than what I feel.

[Traveler]

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any realistic situation where positively assisting someone's death (as opposed to assisting an execution) is morally acceptable. A possible exception would be a sacrificial abortion to save the mother's life, but that's an edge case and not what you're talking about.

Fair enough - I understand you position very well - that use to be my position. My father's passing has cause me to question this stand. What experiences do you have with death? And what do you envision for your own death concerning those in your presents.

The Traveler

[Vort]

Fair enough - I understand you position very well - that use to be my position. My father's passing has cause me to question this stand. What experiences do you have with death? And what do you envision for your own death concerning those in your presents.

I have lost various loved ones to death, and have been present at the experience. Not sure what that has to do with approving of euthanasia.

You speak of euthanasia in your OP, but you don't really talk about it at all. Rather, you ask if we have gone overboard in trying to prevent death. But preventing death is not the opposite of euthanasia, which is the positive assistance in death -- that is, killing someone. Euthanasia means killing someone with the intent of sparing the killee the vicissitudes of life.

Am I to understand that you think killing people to spare them from pain is a good thing? Or am I misunderstanding your question?

[Irishcolleen]

[quote=Vort;736773

Am I to understand that you think killing people to spare them from pain is a good thing? Or am I misunderstanding your question?

I don't think he is advocating euthanasia. I think he is simply trying to process ideas about death, suffering and end of life care. Discussing the rights or wrongs in emotional situations isn't advocating one position or another. I think it's acknowledging human reactions to suffering and the wish that the death process wasn't so difficult.

[Traveler]

I hear you. It is difficult. I consider myself wholeheartedly pro-life, but I've wondered about euthanasia. I have always felt that God knows when our number is up and will take us home in His time. Nowadays we do so much to prolong life, it makes me wonder if are usurping God's role. At the same time I know God is powerful enough to bring death at the right time even with the most intervention.

This is such an emotional issue. My dad is chronically and severely ill. We have had eight hospitalizations in 6 months. My father has type 1 diabetes, heart and kidney failure. His arteries are so blocked that open heart surgery wouldn't help as there is no good artery to attach a graft to. He also has lost blood flow to his intestines and required surgery to remover gangrenous intestine. Each time he has been in crisis he has survived, but he is home-bound, and in pain. I hate to see him suffer and at times I pray for God to take him home. I just assume there is still something God is using him for on earth that I don't understand. I do wish he didn't have to suffer.

Sometimes I too have wondered if there is a place for euthanasia. But, I think when I feel that I am having an emotional reaction to watching my dad suffer. At this point I do not see a justification for euthanasia in the Bible. The Bible says that there are times we will suffer. So I have to stay pro-life even when I feel differently, because what I know is more reliable than what I feel.

I do not have answers - I wish I did but I don't. I am also concerned that fear of death is such a tradition that we may be missing things to help us understand better what our moral obligation is. As I said before - from a religious standpoint there is very little revelation so I wonder how some are so sure and judgmental about any exceptions of death.

Most often when a person passes it boils down to two predominate reason. One is cardiac failure - this is usually a rather peaceful passing as the person dying slips quietly away. The other is respiratory failure - this can very violent and disturbing as the dying person gaps and struggles for each increasingly more difficult and painful breath. A respiratory death is most difficult to witness and I would encourage children not be present - I have experienced enough and the pain that follows - that I would not wish that experience again for my self or ever for anyone else.

The Traveler

[annewandering]

Traveler, the idea of struggling for breath makes me think of the morphine again. It inhibits the demand for breathing and ends the struggling. So would morphine be euthanasia or would it be easing their suffering?

[Traveler]

I have lost various loved ones to death, and have been present at the experience. Not sure what that has to do with approving of euthanasia.

You speak of euthanasia in your OP, but you don't really talk about it at all. Rather, you ask if we have gone overboard in trying to prevent death. But preventing death is not the opposite of euthanasia, which is the positive assistance in death -- that is, killing someone. Euthanasia means killing someone with the intent of sparing the killee the vicissitudes of life.

Am I to understand that you think killing people to spare them from pain is a good thing? Or am I misunderstanding your question?

There are many terms that seem well defined but there are extents that push the limits and parameters. For example what is the difference between removing someone from life support apparatus that is functioning and operational and turning off someone's oxygen supply? I am trying to get away from splitting hairs and create an open and honest discussion of a religious person's moral obligation when someone is dying and angles are there helping them pass? Do do all in their power to prevent the death - to do anything to prevent the death?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Traveler, the idea of struggling for breath makes me think of the morphine again. It inhibits the demand for breathing and ends the struggling. So would morphine be euthanasia or would it be easing their suffering?

Good question - I do not think I have the answer.

The Traveler

PS. What about the condition when there is no morphine or any other means to help with the pain. I have been present offering aid when the person suffering should have survived but the increasing pain put them into shock and they died. In essence I did little more than help them endue more pain.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Traveler
Addes PS.

[Anddenex]

The Traveler, this thread is thought provoking. Euthanasia as specified by definition is an individuals assistance in terminating life for reasons of mercy, i.e., allowing the person to avoid unnecessary suffering.

I found this statement particularly thought provoking, "At one time of my life I was strongly against any effort to assist someone in dying but I wonder at this point – We do not handle or deal with death very well at all – my question is especially from a religious standpoint – have we gone “overboard” with this trying to prevent death."

This appears to be the overall claim in your post, and your personal desire to comprehend "right" and "wrong" as it pertains to a person who is about to die, verses assisting a person to die merely because they do not want to live anymore.

When I first joined LDS.net I believe there was a thread (I could be wrong) regarding a mother who was considering euthanasing her two children with severe birth defects. They were being kept alive by doctors, and feeding tubs, and without these modern achievements they would have starved to death many years prior. Her decision, remove the feeding tubs and let them die slowly from starvation, or euthanase them to avoid additional suffering.

The advancements in our technology have proven invaluable, however they have also proven to prolong suffering in our loved ones.

I would, personally, not be for euthanasing any loved one. Yet, how might we, as a people, help our loved endure death more comfortably? This appears to me to be the question, in light of, angels who may have been saying "it is time to come home."

I hope personally, for myself, my children will not feel the need to keep me alive longer than I should be. My time is appointed, and they should not deter that time any longer than it should, otherwise they may cause my physical body more pain. I agree, we currently do not handle death very well. I remember seeing my Pa (grandmother) in the hospital, which disturbed me greatly, even the images in my mind now disturb me. She was kept alive by machines, and kept alive for some time after the hospital. I, personally, feel the hospital machines prolonged her suffering, and it might have been better for her to have not had to endure such.

[applepansy]

I worked in Hospice and experienced some very sacred things while attending to patients in their last hours.

Life is sacred. I believe we should never intentionally to anything to take a life or assist a dying person to die sooner (assisted suicide). I think (not know) we lose some of the assistance from the other side when we try to speed up the process.

I believe there is a very fine line between relieving suffering and prolonging life unnecessarily. Its a hard decision and if an error is made it should be made on the side of reduced suffering. However, Suffering has a spiritual purpose. That purpose is we learn to know our Savior in a way that can not happen without suffering.

[Vort]

There are many terms that seem well defined but there are extents that push the limits and parameters. For example what is the difference between removing someone from life support apparatus that is functioning and operational and turning off someone's oxygen supply?

The latter is an example of the former.

I am trying to get away from splitting hairs and create an open and honest discussion of a religious person's moral obligation when someone is dying and angles are there helping them pass? Do do all in their power to prevent the death - to do anything to prevent the death?

I don't think that either the Church or anyone here has suggested your latter question. My problem is with the term "euthanasia". Euthanasia does not encompass any of the following:

• Pulling the plug on life support
• Taking out a feeding tube
• Stopping radiation therapy
• Issuing a DNR order

Euthanasia does encompass all of the following:

• Injecting an intentional drug overdose
• Setting up a system to allow the patient to intentionally provide himself a lethal overdose
• Quietly smothering the patient with a pillow
• Throwing the patient out the fifth story window
• Bashing the patient's head in

In short: Euthanasia means killing someone. Withholding life-extending care from a terminally ill patient near death is, in general, not euthanasia.

You keep talking about euthanasia and how we need a dialogue on the matter, but all of your examples are non-euthanasia. We seem to have a terminology disconnect. Can you give me an example of euthanasia that you agree with?

[annewandering]

I can tell you what our bishop said when we talked to him about our baby. He asked if there was any chance the baby would live for any length of time. Then he told us of several incidences where people had been kept alive for months by blessings and the results.

Then he told us we needed to pray about it to decide what we should do but that there was no reason to go to extreme measures to extend his life. Now that is not euthanasia I realize but it does address the issue of how we should deal with these issues.

Seek guidance. Study on it considering the exact situation. Pray about it. Then accept whatever the answer is and deal with it.

[Irishcolleen]

I felt so horrible the first time I thought that it would be better for my father to pass away. I felt like a monster. Now I think God gives those feelings as a way to prepare us to say goodbye (or rather see ya later) to a loved one.

I also think that the pain and weakness associated with death can make people prepare to meet God by making them aware of things they need to repent of, forgiveness they need to seek or give. I also think the sickness at the end of life can emotionally and spiritually prepare a person to let go of their frail bodies in anticipation of a glorified body and make it easier for them to say goodbye. We normally fear death (not Eternal Life- just the dying process) but when a person has been sick a long time they look forward to leaving their body behind and seeing the Lord. I believe this is grace and mercy given at the end of earthly life.

[annewandering]

I felt so horrible the first time I thought that it would be better for my father to pass away. I felt like a monster. Now I think God gives those feelings as a way to prepare us to say goodbye (or rather see ya later) to a loved one.

I also think that the pain and weakness associated with death can make people prepare to meet God by making them aware of things they need to repent of, forgiveness they need to seek or give. I also think the sickness at the end of life can emotionally and spiritually prepare a person to let go of their frail bodies in anticipation of a glorified body and make it easier for them to say goodbye. We normally fear death (not Eternal Life- just the dying process) but when a person has been sick a long time they look forward to leaving their body behind and seeing the Lord. I believe this is grace and mercy given at the end of earthly life.

I think you are right. Pain does make death sound like a pretty cool idea. Provided we are good with God. :)

[SteveVH]

Suffering is a real mystery. I can both empathize and sympathize with all of you who have spoken about loosing a loved one. I lost my mother to Parkinson's disease and my younger brother to cancer, both within the last four years. Both of these diseases cause untold suffering. My mother suffered during her life, but passed rather peacefully. My brother suffered enormously. When he finally slipped into a coma, those last few days, waiting for him to die, were the most painful I have experienced. I remember asking God, why? Why don't you just take him? What possible good can come from prolonging this? And then, four hours before he died, he sat staright up, out of the coma, looked me in the eyes and said "hey Steve". We just held each other for about 15 seconds and then he slipped back into the coma and I laid him down. I will never forget that moment as long as I live. It is one of my most treasured memories.

Can any of us really know what happens in those moments before death? Traveler, your dad saw angels and this is not uncommon. I think God is especially close to us in those moments and he has his own reasons, reasons of which we are not aware. Maybe there is some house cleaning to be done before entering into our eternal destiny. Maybe, in God's mercy, there is one last opportunity for one to come to God. Who knows?

To stop one we love from suffering is a strong human desire. In those last moments we are faced with the desire to end their suffering and at the same time the inconceivable act of terminating the life of one we love. It's a heck of a situation to be in.

My faith tradition teaches that we are not obligated to prolong one's life artificially if they are technically, otherwise dead. As someone else said, sometimes its just time to die. We are, however, prohibited from killing; for ending one's life before their natural death, even in the case of suffering. Now this is probably a uniquely Catholic belief, but we believe that suffering can have much value. As part of the Body of Christ we believe that we can join our suffering to the suffering that Christ endured on the cross and thus contribute, through Christ, to the salvation of mankind. Believing this, however, does not make it any easier to go through, trust me on that one.

[madeleine1]

Hi SteveVH :)

In my own conversion to Catholicism, that was one question that I kept asking. God could have redeemed us in any way, yet the way we are redeemed is through the suffering and death of the Son of God. Isaiah 43 teaches the redemptive value of the suffering servant, very beautifully.

Looking to the Sacrament of Anointing the Sick, we see Christ as physician. The one who heals us, body and soul. So we are not left to suffer alone, and suffering with another (such as a you did with your brother) is, I believe, the greatest act of charity.

[Aworkinprogress]

I worked in Hospice and experienced some very sacred things while attending to patients in their last hours.

Life is sacred. I believe we should never intentionally to anything to take a life or assist a dying person to die sooner (assisted suicide). I think (not know) we lose some of the assistance from the other side when we try to speed up the process.

I believe there is a very fine line between relieving suffering and prolonging life unnecessarily. Its a hard decision and if an error is made it should be made on the side of reduced suffering. However, Suffering has a spiritual purpose. That purpose is we learn to know our Savior in a way that can not happen without suffering.

I agree about the fine line. I just recently lost my parents a year ago and few months. So much of it is still so vivid. Both my parents were under hospice care with the help of my sister and myself when they were not there. Is it possible when you were attending some of the patients last hours, that their body was just "functioning" somewhat, but felt that their spirit had already left the body, so at that point they weren't really physically suffering, they were just waiting for their body to shut down and the heart beat stop? My sister and I both got that feeling with both of our parents. Mom had Alzheimer's for a few years, but the last 5 months of her life her Dr. said that she had blood cancer. He didn't know what kind and they'd have to put her through some testing and at 83 my Dad, sister, brother and I agreed we didn't want to put her through that. Down to the last month things were progressing fast and Mom was almost child like. But she was in some pain and got to where she couldn't walk. She was too weak. 5 days before she passed, she went into an coma like state. My sister still gave her, her meds on time. What she could. She still swallowed some while sleeping. She actually looked peaceful. Like being in a long sleep. 6 hours before her passing, her breathing became more rapid, her chest was working over time, and after hours of sitting by her rubbing her hand and kissing her cheek, it took it's tole on all of us. My sister asked my Dad if he wouldn't mind if she called the Bishop to have someone come over for a blessing to release her. He nodded and she called our Bishop and he arranged it, but by the time they showed up, she had passed away on her own.

What if the body is just hanging on strong and the spirit is just in limbo waiting on the outside of the body? In my mothers case I can see that. Would that then be the time when you can aid in helping the process? When things in the body is already shutting down? I do like the idea of having a blessing and letting it be in Heavenly Fathers hands from that point.

[Traveler]

I started this thread because I have unsettled concerns. I know that suffering can be a great source of learning and acquiring spiritual strength. I also understand from a religious standpoint that suffering is a major component of punishment.

The bottom line is that suffering is both a tool of good and evil - however, I did not want to get into that in this thread. What I intended to do was create discussion about death and the role we each play. Both in our own death and the death of others.

I do not say this next thing so much as criticism as frustration. I will say that my frustration is expressed over individual selfishness in dealing with death. I believe the greatest errors I have made in dealing with the death of others is my selfishness in behaving according to my beliefs, wants and expectations. In addition it appears to me that the way the dying are treated is all about warm fuzzies for those left living in mortality. So we say and do things so we can make excuses in order to feel good about ourselves and what we do.

So we make what appears to me to be a much bigger deal about death than it really is. Everyone dies and everyone suffers. We say that for the good - that dying is a better thing than living for they are now in a better place. We get all excited about Jesus saying that no greater love can be expressed than those that give their life for others - but then we make exceptions and say it evil to take out a 1 million dollar insurance policy and then end one's life to benefit someone that way (again based on our selfish perspective and belief of giving one's life in ways we deem suitable rather than the simple understanding Jesus gave - which was to give one's life for another.)

Again I voice that I am not satisfied - I am not any more satisfied with my own opinions and efforts than I am of others in what you are saying. I think we are all missing something - maybe as simple as not seeing the forest for all the trees. But I am getting some sense that many are not seeing any possibilities because they do not want to see anything concerning death. Or is it just a lack of faith - that we really do not understand death or what really is beyond death?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I thought I would add something. A long time ago I determined to will my remains to science. I have picked the University of Utah medical facility as the recipient. This despite the fact that I am a BYU fan and Utah University is our great rival. However, this has caused pain to my dear wife that wants us to be berried side by side. So out of concern for her I have amended my will giving her say if she remains alive following my death - but should she die first that my remains will go to science. I figure that if she dies first she will realize that my giving my body to science is my last effort to be of service to my fellow man but if she still lives that my last gift is a gift of my love to her.

Good grief - why do things have to be so complicated? Why are my beliefs in what is good and right so wrapped up with the feelings of others?

The Traveler