Hugo Chávez - A Great Loss to the Poor

[Backroads]

And no, I'd rather not speak to anyone that was wealthy enough to move from Venezuela. I'd rather speak with someone who is too poor to move and stuck in Venezuela.

Let me get this straight: The only people that mattered in that country were the poor. The most efficient system of government is one that causes all sorts of chaos and tragedy, but happens to benefit the poorest.

So I can do whatever I want and harm as many people as I want as long as <insert my chosen race/class/group/etc> benefits.

[NightSG]

Let me get this straight: The only people that mattered in that country were the poor. The most efficient system of government is one that causes all sorts of chaos and tragedy, but happens to benefit the poorest.

You forgot not benefiting them enough to actually raise them out of poverty, because then they're not worthy of notice anymore.

[prisonchaplain]

In fairness, many poor did benefit under Chavez. However, the benefits came at a price. He nationalized the oil industry--basically stealing the infrastructure from the multinationals that invested to have it built. The OP says these companies were greedy. Well, sure. But anyone can play Robin Hood and find a poor mob to benefit with some of the proceeds. That person is then a hero to the mob--even if he skims a hefty portion of the bounty.

I guess the OP is serious in these types of strings. However, they always come across a tweek to the Republican noses of many who post here. Deep down, I want to believe HG is kinda moderate, but that he enjoys playing Demo's advocate.

[Palerider]

Hugo is not the bad guy in all of this. The oil companies are the ruthless ones. 100% ruthless.

do you live in Colorado????

Hugo is a dictator spewing Socialism

[HoosierGuy]

do you live in Colorado????

Hugo is a dictator spewing Socialism

Not all socialism is bad. Social Security, universal healthcare, etc...

I wish I lived in the blue state of Colorado but I live in the backwards conservatives state

of Indiana.

[bytor2112]

Not all socialism is bad. Social Security, universal healthcare, etc...

I wish I lived in the blue state of Colorado but I live in the backwards conservatives state

of Indiana.

Maybe you should try the blue country of Canada.......or France....or Greece or...or

[RipplecutBuddha]

If Venezuela is such a better place for having had Chavez there, why not move your happy self down there and live up the paradise he made it to be?

[Wordnerd]

Maybe you should try the blue country of Canada.......or France....or Greece or...or

Most Canadians consider ourselves capitalists, and Canada is not nearly in the class of Greece and France as far as left wing mentality goes. Also our economy is actually strong, unlike France and Greece, we just like our healthcare. /end of threadjack

[annewandering]

Hoosier does not really help the ideas of liberalism but to say he should consider leaving is defeating a basic concept of how our society works. We need ideas from many different viewpoints to be successful. When we limit the ideas people have to only the ones we agree with then we become less than a free society.

I do not like Chavez. He did much evil in the world. Still people have the right to live here and think he was wonderful.

What we should do is listen and see if there is any value in what people say. I get so tired of being told I am evil because I am not conservative in many things. Sometimes I get angry and strike back at those who hold me in less than high esteem because of our differences in opinion. I often feel like putting on armor and building protective defensive walls around myself. It is not a good thing. When I do this I stop listening and I stop expressing myself. None of us have perfect views on issues or how things should be accomplished. By talking with each other and respecting each others ideas we can be more perfect.

I notice Hoosier likes to stir up arguments by taking far left views and denigrating anyone not in his corner. On the other hand he gets lots of people who are willing to do the same to him. Neither is the answer.

[prisonchaplain]

Here's an irony...while Chavez nationalized the oil fields, Washington State, one of the bluest of the blue, privatized its liquor stores.

I invite everyone who really believes that big government helps the most to make voluntary contributions. There is a section on our IRS forms where filers can make a direct contribution to the U.S. Treasury. Do that, and I will tip my non-existent hat to your consistency in putting your money where your beliefs are.

https://www.pay.gov/paygov/forms/formInstance.html?agencyFormId=23779454

Edited March 10, 2013 by prisonchaplain

[Guest]

Did someone here call you evil for your politics? I don't think you're evil. Chavez is evil, but you are not evil and I've never seen anyone even hint at that idea, even in disagreement.

[annewandering]

All taxes are given for the welfare of the US in some way or other. They may not be used how you would personally use them but they are used in the ways the people we have voted to represent us have chosen. Dont like the way they chose then pick other representatives or run yourself.

[annewandering]

Did someone here call you evil for your politics? I don't think you're evil. Chavez is evil, but you are not evil and I've never seen anyone even hint at that idea, even in disagreement.

Eowyn, its not here. Theres a lot of disagreement here on politics but I dont ever remember anyone here calling me evil. It does happen frequently however even by family members. Anyway no I do not mean here and I am sorry I didnt make that clear.

[Guest]

If it did happen here I hope you'd report it. That's a clear violation of one of the site rules.

[Just_A_Guy]

All taxes are given for the welfare of the US in some way or other. They may not be used how you would personally use them but they are used in the ways the people we have voted to represent us have chosen. Dont like the way they chose then pick other representatives or run yourself.

This is an interesting argument. I understand the philosophical basis behind it, but it begs the question: Is there such a thing as an immoral use of public funds, provided they are administered by duly elected officials?

I venture to guess you thought the no-bid contracts awarded to KBR and Halliburton, completely abhorrent. But given the argument you present above, what's the problem with a little graft by public officials?

Edited March 11, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[HoosierGuy]

Maybe you should try the blue country of Canada.......or France....or Greece or...or

You hit the nail on the head! Imagine how great the U.S. would be if we were more like France. I believe I heard a report on the cell phone industry in France. It's a law that there must be competition, so there are around thirty companies or more competing for peoples cell phone business and that results in extremely low prices for cell phone service. Now compare that to corrupt America where people are fed propaganda that they must have a cell phone because they are "cool" and they must pay a big chunk of their paycheck on those phone bills.

Yeah, I'll take a lot of France and Germany any day of the week.

[bytor2112]

Most Canadians consider ourselves capitalists, and Canada is not nearly in the class of Greece and France as far as left wing mentality goes. Also our economy is actually strong, unlike France and Greece, we just like our healthcare. /end of threadjack

True indeed....Canadians are doing many things very well right now.

[annewandering]

This is an interesting argument. I understand the philosophical basis behind it, but it begs the question: Is there such a thing as an immoral use of public funds, provided they are administered by duly elected officials?

I venture to guess you thought the no-bid contracts awarded to KBR and Halliburton, completely abhorrent. But given the argument you present above, what's the problem with a little graft by public officials?

Graft is illegal. That is a big problem. Immoral needs to be changed so change it. Elect people that you believe will enact moral laws. My 'argument' in no way encourages illegal and immoral acts unless you believe the system we use of electing officials is a bad one. It does encourage public participation in telling our politicians what they need to do.

[Backroads]

You hit the nail on the head! Imagine how great the U.S. would be if we were more like France. I believe I heard a report on the cell phone industry in France. It's a law that there must be competition, so there are around thirty companies or more competing for peoples cell phone business and that results in extremely low prices for cell phone service. Now compare that to corrupt America where people are fed propaganda that they must have a cell phone because they are "cool" and they must pay a big chunk of their paycheck on those phone bills.

Yeah, I'll take a lot of France and Germany any day of the week.

I dunno. Seems like we have plenty of that same competition in the States. We've gotten some pretty good cell plans deals. We also have people stating cell phones and other luxuries are "needs" and demanding others pay for them.

[Backroads]

Graft is illegal. That is a big problem. Immoral needs to be changed so change it. Elect people that you believe will enact moral laws. My 'argument' in no way encourages illegal and immoral acts unless you believe the system we use of electing officials is a bad one. It does encourage public participation in telling our politicians what they need to do.

Y'know, anne, I think we are not so dissimilar in beliefs as we might think. Oh, I'm definitely quite libertarian, but I think we all have more or less the same morals and good desires and just differ in how we express and practice them. I seem to find myself agreeing with a lot of your ideas.

[NightSG]

You hit the nail on the head! Imagine how great the U.S. would be if we were more like France. I believe I heard a report on the cell phone industry in France. It's a law that there must be competition, so there are around thirty companies or more competing for peoples cell phone business and that results in extremely low prices for cell phone service. Now compare that to corrupt America where people are fed propaganda that they must have a cell phone because they are "cool" and they must pay a big chunk of their paycheck on those phone bills.

Uh...let's see...out here about an hour's drive past the middle of nowhere, I have a choice of at least three regular plan providers and several prepaid options.

Yeah, I'll take a lot of France and Germany any day of the week.

Need help packing?

Einbürgerungstest - Fragen & Antworten | Deutsch-Werden.de

[Windseeker]

Graft is illegal. That is a big problem. Immoral needs to be changed so change it. Elect people that you believe will enact moral laws. My 'argument' in no way encourages illegal and immoral acts unless you believe the system we use of electing officials is a bad one. It does encourage public participation in telling our politicians what they need to do.

How exactly was someone supposed to elect change under Chavez?

[annewandering]

How exactly was someone supposed to elect change under Chavez?

What? I have a feeling you have misread something somewhere. Chavez did have elections but I was not talking about him or his country. Since you have brought it up though, I do feel if people do not like their government they should change it. It is not our responsibility to do that for them. It would be very hard to do in some areas but real change has to come from inside.

[Windseeker]

In light of this topic I found this discussion facinating

Freemen and King-men in the Book of Mormon

Q. How do you distinguish the righteous from the wicked, then?

A. You don't; that is not your prerogative: "As you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous," the Lord told the Prophet Joseph, "therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known" (D&C 10:37). In this connection another parable of Jesus bids us consider a very important principle, namely that we are never to take people's own estimate of their virtue at face value. When "two men went up into the temple to pray," one of them proclaimed his righteousness and the other his sinful condition; as it turned out, the true labels were reversed (Luke 18:10–14). This is important, because throughout the Book of Mormon the king-men routinely described themselves as the champions of freedom. Right at the outset, Laman falsely accused Nephi of being a king-man: "He has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman stir up their hearts to anger" (1 Nephi 16:38). Of course it was Laman himself who was aspiring to be top dog (1 Nephi 17:44), while he put himself forward as the champion of freedom. Giddianhi was one of the most rabid of king-men, "the leader and the governor of this band of robbers" aspiring to take over the government (3 Nephi 3:1). He wrote a most high-flown and idealistic letter to Lachoneus, the real governor, praising his dedication to "that which ye suppose to be your right and liberty," and insisting that his own followers were the real freedom-fighters with "their unconquerable spirit" and determination to right "the many wrongs which ye have done unto them" (3 Nephi 3:2–4). But magnanimously "feeling for your welfare" (3 Nephi 3:5), he urges them to "become our brethren . . . not our slaves, but our brethren and partners of all our substance" (3 Nephi 3:7)—a blow for freedom. He invites them to join his dignified and venerable society—"The works thereof I know to be good; and they are of ancient date, . . . handed down unto us" (3 Nephi 3:9). He pleads for avoidance of bloodshed by returning to his people "their rights and government" which they had lost through the Nephites' "wickedness in retaining from them their rights of government" (3 Nephi 3:10). Lachoneus the governor was astonished at the sheer effrontery of the thing (3 Nephi 3:11), in which the modern reader cannot help but detect familiar echoes of "liberationist" terror groups throughout the world: the king-men have always made a big thing of sounding like freemen. One of the cleverest such twisters was Korihor.

Politicians and world leaders are going to say what they will say but in the end "by their fruits ye shall know them."

Edited March 11, 2013 by Windseeker

[SanctitasDeo]

I thought this was interesting: O'Grady: Chávez 'The Redeemer' - WSJ.com