New Bishop, revelation and....

[bytor2112]

About a year ago we had a new Bishop called. A great guy and personal friend and role model to many. That said, I don't think he was called by the Lord and neither does he. Let me explain, another brother in the Ward had felt (revelation) that he would be called and many others felt the same as did my friend who was ultimately called. During a PPI with the stake President I was told that my friend was called because he had been a Bishop once before for a short time many years ago and he thought he should have the opportunity to finish being a Bishop. This kind of confused me because I would have thought he would have mentioned, prayerful consideration, revelation, etc. Oh well...the caravan moves on.

Fast forward, my friend (Bishop) is always gone, traveling for his job as is his first counselor who was also his 1st counselor his first go round as Bishop....more revelation? Anyways, most of the burden falls on the 2nd counselor. Needless to say, our ward has suffered as a result. Indeed, my 17 year old son has never been interviewed by The Bishop nor talked with about a mission and he will be 18 in a few weeks.

At a more recent PPI, my Stake President put me on the spot about our bishops absence and my feelings about it and I simply said, "he travels alot with his job and has a young family, but is a good man." He said, " well I know a couple of other good men in that ward that might be able to do the job....'

Today, my friend and Bishop was released and another Brother has been called to serve. Another good man and a friend. Was he called by revelation? Not sure...I didn't receive the confirmation of the Spirit and my wife didn't either and other members I know commented privately the same.

A bit more....About a year and half ago, there were two Wards and the Stake President dissolved a Ward and combined it with our Ward and redrew some boundaries. We were asked to sustain this and also to attend the Ward in which we are zoned to attend. The brother that was called to serve as Bishop lives in another Ward boundary....way in another Ward Boundary? Many of us are kind of scratching our heads as to....why or how? There are members who were called and instructed that they must go to there assigned Wards or present a good reason the the SP and then get approval from the First Presidency to do so.

As an aside, I sustain my new Bishop and also sustain the SP..but, am very confused. It seems that revelation hasn't been used in the past couple Bishop callings...

Edited March 31, 2013 by bytor2112

[Praetorian_Brow]

The people with the skills and foundation required to be a bishop, or even any calling draws from a very limited pool of people, so it is not surprising that most callings are not announced with a 40 day fast or a choir of angels.

Lets face it, people move around, already have callings and the church is run like a business, so its not all that surprising when we over think the reasons for callings and imagine that there is far more going on than the most obvious answer. I imagine that there are on occasions revelation, but I would think based on the need of such a vast organization that practical considerations dwarf any divine considerations.

[bytor2112]

The people with the skills and foundation required to be a bishop

Interesting comment and while perhaps all worthy men aren't necessarily cut out to be the Bishop, if revelation doesn't play a role, we end up with chaos or worse a church led by me with good intentions but not revelation from God. Without revelation we are no different from any other church that professes Christ.

[annewandering]

It sounds like a lot of murmuring going on. Maybe its a test of the members in the ward and they are not doing so good. It seems odd to me that people are discussing how they didnt feel the spirit confirming the bishops calling. If its not there then its something those people need to work on, not the bishop. Saying I support him is not the same as not murmuring. I support him even though I doubt he is called? Doesnt make a lot of sense.

How is discussing the lack of confirmation with others not murmuring? A long time ago we had a new bishop called. I dont remember who it was but I know that a LOT of people, including the family of a man in the ward and the man himself, thought he was going to be called, not the man actually called. Why I have no idea. He was just a ward member, not anyone with a halo hanging over him. There was murmuring for quite awhile. It was disturbing to me even as a teenager. There was a certain lack of spirit in the ward for awhile but whose fault was it?

Another time a person was called and we heard the woman in front of us tell her husband that he would have been a much better choice. Fortunately the husband was embarrassed and denied that to her.

Our job as ward members is to support the bishop by word and deed. Discussing his perceived shortcomings isnt doing that.

[bytor2112]

No one that I know of has discussed the Bishops shortcomings. What I have posted was more about the process by which our Stake President has called Bishops and I do think it important for members to feel as though the calling was from the Lord. The conversations that I have had with the SP haven't been shared with anyone other than on this forum. I just find the commentary coming from him to be....not what I expected.

[Guest]

It's the SP's stewardship to call bishops, and thus he is the one who has the right to spiritual confirmation. No one in the ward aside from the prospective bishop himself and the wife has any entitlement to have the Spirit tell them who the next bishop will be. Anyone else is just speculating and feeling good about their speculations. God's kingdom is one of order, not chaos. The true spiritual confirmation would come to the members of the ward after the call was made to someone, not before.

[bytor2112]

It's the SP's stewardship to call bishops, and thus he is the one who has the right to spiritual confirmation. No one in the ward aside from the prospective bishop himself and the wife has any entitlement to have the Spirit tell them who the next bishop will be. Anyone else is just speculating and feeling good about their speculations. God's kingdom is one of order, not chaos. The true spiritual confirmation would come to the members of the ward after the call was made to someone, not before.

True...if indeed he did seek and receive. His comments to me suggest otherwise. As for the membership, they should receive Spiritual confirmation after the Bishop is called. But when they don't...

Anyways, the prior Bishop didn't believe he was called by revelation..he told me so and it showed in his leadership. My commentary centers around whether the SP makes the call by inspiration or has he in the past made the calling based on who he thinks is best. His comments suggest the latter....

Edited March 31, 2013 by bytor2112

[annewandering]

Why wouldnt you assume he had prayed about it? People dont always talk about that kind of thing. He may be more interested in your reaction than whether he called the right person.

[bytor2112]

Why wouldnt you assume he had prayed about it? People dont always talk about that kind of thing. He may be more interested in your reaction than whether he called the right person.

Oh, I assume that he did pray about it. But, that doesn't guarantee that he did what he was led to do by the Spirit. It is an odd way to express to someone...in a PPI of all places, that the call was extended because of the following reasons. The call that was made for the reasons stated rather than because that is who the Lord had called, didn't work out.

I do not assume that my Stake President is infallible or always led by revelation. I think in the former instance and maybe this new instance he was NOT led by revelation, but selected whom he thought should fill the calling. This is my impression......

The church continues forth either way....but, I do see how NOT following the Spirit has led to a struggling Ward.

Edited March 31, 2013 by bytor2112

[Anddenex]

Let me explain, another brother in the Ward had felt (revelation) that he would be called and many others felt the same as did my friend who was ultimately called.

When we contemplate revelation and receiving revelation pertaining to a calling we must remember there are possibly two options when determining the result, or intent, of the impression.

First - the Lord is completely able to prepare and impress upon an individual that they would be called to a specific calling.

Second - the other option, as presented by President Uchtdorf, "Lift Where you Stand," explains that these "spiritual promptings telling us that we are worthy to receive certain callings. This is a spiritual blessing, a tender mercy from God...But sometimes we do not hear the rest of what the Lord is telling us. “Although you are worthy to serve in this position,” He may say, “this is not my calling for you. It is my desire instead that you lift where you stand.” God knows what is best for us."

Thus, we discover the possibility that the other brother in the ward merely felt an impression that he was worthy, but the Lord had other things in mind for him.

During a PPI with the stake President I was told that my friend was called because he had been a Bishop once before for a short time many years ago and he thought he should have the opportunity to finish being a Bishop. This kind of confused me because I would have thought he would have mentioned, prayerful consideration, revelation, etc. Oh well...the caravan moves on.

The question I would ask, how would you know if this wasn't an impression from the Lord? Would the Lord bring this and impress this thought upon the current Stake President?

The absence of specific elements doesn't necessarily dictate that prayer wasn't an aspect of the call; although prayer and meditation may not have been directly the method. When I was the Elder's Quorum President for my ward, there would be times I would be walking the halls and the impression, or an idea would come, not directly a result of prayer, but a result of honoring and magnifying my calling.

The brother that was called to serve as Bishop lives in another Ward boundary....way in another Ward Boundary? Many of us are kind of scratching our heads as to....why or how? There are members who were called and instructed that they must go to there assigned Wards or present a good reason the the SP and then get approval from the First Presidency to do so.

The Stake President, as you know holds the keys for the stake. When a boundary is changed and a new bishop called, the bishop may or may not be in the ward, in such circumstances. However, it is more likely that the bishop will be in the ward boundaries. A call as a bishop is sufficient reason if the stake president was impressed to do so. I would assume once released, the bishop will return to his ward.

When bishops are called they must be presented to the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. When we understand this, then we know the First Presidency approved the bishop who is within the ward boundaries of another ward.

I would assume, understanding this, revelation was probably received, just not in the manner or way you might feel it should.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Anddenex
calling added after specific "specific calling"

[mikbone]

As an aside, I sustain my new Bishop and also sustain the SP..but, am very confused. It seems that revelation hasn't been used in the past couple Bishop callings...

I'm sure that this happens alot. We have a huge church. Not every decision made in Zion has been well researched nor spiritual confirmation sought. If it was so, we would have been caught up into heaven by now like the city of Enoch...

Remember how Joseph Smith was able to receive revelation about how it was ok to give Martin Harris the 116 pages of the Book of Lehi? Sometimes the Lord lets us struggle for our benefit.

It does seem a shame that a 17 year old young man prospective Elder / Missionary has not not been interviewed by the Bishop. If I was bishop that would be my number one focus... And I count it a blessing that I have not been considered for a bishop calling. :)

I have had many local leaders during my years in the church that turned out to be less than optimal. Excommunicated bishops, stake presidents, and an inactive - absent mission president. Did it matter? Not to me. My spiritual leader is neither my bishop nor my stake president. I pray to my spiritual leader and He has never let me down.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Bytor,

Thanks for sharing your feelings. I don't know what is going on here, but I appreciate that you were willing to share your thoughts and confusion...it is normalizing for the rest of us who have had questions at times too.

What I have come to believe (in general, not specific to your situation) is this: because the Lord uses imperfect humans to run His church here on earth, sometimes things can go a little astray. Nothing so serious that the Lord can't use it for His purposes, but not the "ideal" manner.

It's very rare, but there have been incidents of Stake Presidents who did worse things than what you are describing...it happens. But worst case scenario, if the Stake President lost his testimony and pulled names from a hat for the Bishop....the Lord could make that work some how.

That's how I see it. Humans are imperfect, we make mistakes unintentionally, sometimes we sin purposefully...but the Lord is perfect and He can make the proverbial lemonade from us lemons.

So hold on to faith in Christ. He'll take care of your ward/stake some way.

Also if it helps...I have only had spiritual confirmation of Bishops twice in my life, and both times it ended up being a Bishop that I had some difficulty with (personality issues). I've felt it was the Lord telling me in essence, "I know this Bishop will be hard for you, but trust me because I need Him for my purposes." So I do NOT look forward to feeling confirmation about a new Bishop.

[Magus]

well, like i've said before....for me, sustaining is a way of saying "i recognize the mantle of authority given to you and your entitlement to receive revelation on behalf of the ward", and not "i agree with every decision you make and sustain it unquestionably as the Lord's mind and will."

I think the best and most direct route would be to just straight up ask your Stake President if he actually received revelation on this. It's "okay" of course to talk about it with other members, but you gotta be mindful that a lot of that kind of talk going on can undermine a bishop, and what if he WAS actually the one meant to be? So I would just go right up to the Stake Prez and ask him. Let him know that people are having doubts about this, including the bishop. Then let him chew on that for awhile. Of course be respectful and courteous and stuff, but there's nothing wrong in communicating doubts or concerns.

If nothing happens, either a.) it was meant to be, b.) the stake prez blew you off, lol.

Either way, the caravan roles on, as you say. Any mistake on his part as a priesthood leader is something he will be accountable for. Just do your best to fill your role and lift up others in serving the cause of Zion, and pray for your leaders to be inspired as well.

Actually, to take it a step further, you could always just pray yourself and ask God if the stake president's decision was inspired or not. I don't see why that wouldn't be okay. If any of you lack wisdom...

Edited April 1, 2013 by Magus

[mikbone]

While perhaps all worthy men aren't necessarily cut out to be the Bishop, if revelation doesn't play a role, we end up with chaos or worse a church led by me[n] with good intentions but not revelation from God. Without revelation we are no different from any other church that professes Christ.

This may be going a bit far.

Even if a local bishop is uninspired or even corrupt, the President of the church and the Quorum of twelve are true messengers of God. Of this I have no doubt. Conference is next week, I look forward to the words of wisdom and insight that will be revealed.

And of note, the authority of the priesthood is absolute. I believe that there are multiple apostates that are in my Melchizedek priesthood line of authority. I have no doubt that I still hold the Priesthood.

Edited April 1, 2013 by mikbone

[MarginOfError]

Interesting comment and while perhaps all worthy men aren't necessarily cut out to be the Bishop,....

This depends largely on the people around the person. My previous bishop was certainly worthy, but in many ways, was not cut out to be bishop. He didn't have the kind of mind that could keep track of all of the administrative details that fell under his stewardship.

The reason he made such a great bishop was he knew his limitations and called people that could compensate for them. I was fortunate enough to be one of those people and served as his clerk for most of his time as bishop. As self serving as this will sound, the ward functioned because of myself and the executive secretary(ies...he had three of them over his tenure and kept calling them as counselors whenever there was a vacancy). But the ward grew (spiritually and emotionally--and that's the important part) because of his ability to build relationships with the members.

My current bishop, on the other hand, seems to be the kind of guy that was made to be bishop. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have the same appreciation for his limitations and there isn't nearly as much growth and energy as there was under the previous bishop. He's still new though, so that my change in the next year if he learns to loosen the reins a little.

As far as how revelation comes to select a person to be bishop, I don't think it necessarily needs to follow the traditional model of grand revelations about who to call. There are other ways one can seek and find revelation. I've written about this under the title of "Informed Inspiration" Uncommon Dissent: Informed Inspiration and Extending Callings

[bytor2112]

Thanks for the varying perspectives....I appreciate it very much. It is difficult sometimes to not sound critical when questioning someone or something particularly in an internet forum. I hope my post/question was not offensive...it was not intended to be.

[Anddenex]

Nope. It was received as honest and sincere attempt to understand.

[mikbone]

As far as how revelation comes to select a person to be bishop, I don't think it necessarily needs to follow the traditional model of grand revelations about who to call. There are other ways one can seek and find revelation. I've written about this under the title of "Informed Inspiration" Uncommon Dissent: Informed Inspiration and Extending Callings

Nice article.

It really gives you a warm fuzzy inside when you take the time to write something meaningful and then have the only response as - 'ark steadier'...

I mean, how can you expect a Bishop to learn the names of all the members of the ward. The nerve.

[MarginOfError]

Nice article.

It really gives you a warm fuzzy inside when you take the time to write something meaningful and then have the only response as - 'ark steadier'...

I mean, how can you expect a Bishop to learn the names of all the members of the ward. The nerve.

I found it more amusing that he called me an "ark bearer." If you take his suggestion to look it up, it's actually a term of honor.

[Twisted_Fairytales]

This may be a contraversial thing to say but apart from the general authorities I dont believe that ward level callings are 'revealed'. As has been previously said, theres usually only a handful of people who can do each calling. At first this bothered me but now Im happy with it. I think you can pray about it and get a feeling but I think that varies from person to person. My husband turned down a calling of EQP because he was casually asked if he fancied it or not rather than called officially in an office etc. So he turned it down. I think theres a good halfway between thne two.

[estradling75]

I dont believe that ward level callings are 'revealed'.

I would disagree with this as an absolute. While I accept that some aren't, I have had personal experience with ones that were very much revealed.

[Anddenex]

I dont believe that ward level callings are 'revealed'.

I am inline with Estradling75, this is definitely not an absolute. Some callings do not need to be "revealed" in order for them to be accomplished.

Other times, I know for myself, revelation in its most purest form are the reason why other callings are extended and received.

[mirkwood]

Some are some are not. Some are just because a warm body is available and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

My current calling made sense when I was put in. Everyone felt that way. I could have been "a warm body" that could do the job. The SP made it very clear to me that the call was inspired and not just because I was a good choice for the position. They made it abudndantly clear that it was inspired. I'm not sure why that was important to them to tell me cause I would have said yes even if I was just "a warm body."

[Anddenex]

I'm not sure why that was important to them to tell me cause I would have said yes even if I was just "a warm body."

A mark of a true disciple of Christ.

[mirkwood]

You are too kind.