Marriage and the Afterlife

[Vort]

So, my question is if a husband and wife were sealed for time and eternity, and the husband died. The wife remarries and is sealed to her second husband for time and eternity and her second husband dies. The wife remarries and is sealed to her third husband for time and eternity and he dies...etc,etc,etc. To whom is she married to in the resurrection? The first? second? third? All?

Wow. This question seems oddly...familiar...almost as if the Lord himself had been asked such a question by his enemies looking to destroy him...not sure why...maybe it's just my imagination.

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

As long as the woman is alive, she would have to have a sealing cancelled before she could be sealed to another man.

So am I to understand that there is divorce in heaven?

[Guest]

So am I to understand that there is divorce in heaven?

No. It means a woman can only be sealed to one man. A cancellation is not a divorce - the original sealing is deemed invalid. Remember, we are talking about everlasting covenants. A covenant is only valid so long as all the parties who made the promises keep their covenants. Even though you are sealed, this sealing will be broken if either one of the parties renege on the covenant - even if you only got sealed to one person and even if a cancellation was not performed.

The sealing ordinance may be performed vicariously for a woman who is dead more than once. In this instance, the woman chooses which of the vicarious sealings she will accept. That sealing then goes into effect because then the woman and the man she chose goes into the covenant.

Edited May 19, 2013 by anatess

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

No. It means a woman can only be sealed to one man. A cancellation is not a divorce - the original sealing is deemed invalid. Remember, we are talking about everlasting covenants. A covenant is only valid so long as all the parties who made the promises keep their covenants. Even though you are sealed, this sealing will be broken if either one of the parties renege on the covenant - even if you only got sealed to one person and even if a cancellation was not performed.

The sealing ordinance may be performed vicariously for a woman who is dead more than once. In this instance, the woman chooses which of the vicarious sealings she will accept. That sealing then goes into effect because then the woman and the man she chose goes into the covenant.

So an everlasting covenant can be broken if one of the parties doesn't hold up their end? What do you mean by everlasting?

And say the woman chooses man A over men B and C, what about them? Are they banned from the Celestial Kingdom because they are not sealed?

[Guest]

So an everlasting covenant can be broken if one of the parties doesn't hold up their end? What do you mean by everlasting?

And say the woman chooses man A over men B and C, what about them? Are they banned from the Celestial Kingdom because they are not sealed?

Deus... you are familiar with the concept of covenant, I am sure because it is also central to Catholic teaching. When you promise God when you partake of the Eucharist to follow Him, you make a covenant. God's promise to you in that covenant is to take you with him to paradise. If you murder your next-door neighbor tomorrow, you just broke that covenant. It doesn't matter that you got baptized, confirmed, and ate the bread. God does not have to honor His part of the covenant because YOU broke it. Not God. So, you don't get to go to paradise.

That's the exact same thing with sealings. When you get sealed, you make a covenant with your wife to God. If you beat up your wife, that covenant is broken.

Of course, through the Atonement, you can have your sins forgiven and that covenant restored after a period of repentance if you so desire.

As far as Man B and C are concerned, they can go get sealed with other people - if they were married to more than one woman while alive. Note. Current policy is that you can only get sealed vicariously to somebody whom you were married to while alive. So say you got married and divorced or widowed 3 times... You can get sealed vicariously to all 3 people when all of you are dead. You get to accept or reject the sealing in the spirit world.

P.S. everlasting here refers to this dispensation... As opposed to, say, the law of Moses.

Edited May 19, 2013 by anatess

[Vort]

So an everlasting covenant can be broken if one of the parties doesn't hold up their end? What do you mean by everlasting?

"Everlasting" means "lasting forever".

All covenants are conditional. All of them. No exceptions.

[Guest]

"Everlasting" means "lasting forever".

All covenants are conditional. All of them. No exceptions.

Everlasting is used in Catholicism also, so Deus should be familiar with the term... Catholics and LDS have the same usage.

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Deus... you are familiar with the concept of covenant, I am sure because it is also central to Catholic teaching. When you promise God when you partake of the Eucharist to follow Him, you make a covenant. God's promise to you in that covenant is to take you with him to paradise. If you murder your next-door neighbor tomorrow, you just broke that covenant. It doesn't matter that you got baptized, confirmed, and ate the bread. God does not have to honor His part of the covenant because YOU broke it. Not God. So, you don't get to go to paradise.

There is something lost is translation here. I am not sure how to respond to covenants being central to Catholic teaching as the Church teaches that there is only the Old and New covenants. Also, when I take communion I am not so much as making a promise, but offering myself to be joined with Jesus body and soul in an act of faith and obedience. I also don't think that the Catholic Church teaches that God acts in such a way as to say "If you do this, I'll do that".

[Guest]

There is something lost is translation here. I am not sure how to respond to covenants being central to Catholic teaching as the Church teaches that there is only the Old and New covenants. Also, when I take communion I am not so much as making a promise, but offering myself to be joined with Jesus body and soul in an act of faith and obedience. I also don't think that the Catholic Church teaches that God acts in such a way as to say "If you do this, I'll do that".

Oy! How long have you been Catholic??? Because, the priest reminds you of your covenants only about EVERY SINGLE time the Priest raises the wafer... In Catholicism, your entire salvation is dependent on that covenant - if you do this, God will do that - admit you to heaven. If you do something else, He'll send you to hell! You don't get either one automagically!

Edited May 19, 2013 by anatess

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Everlasting is used in Catholicism also, so Deus should be familiar with the term... Catholics and LDS have the same usage.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Catholics and LDS do not have the same usage. Same term but they mean two completely different things.

The Catholic teaching is that God established a covenant with His people through a sacrifice, blood being poured on an alter and on the people and then the sacrifice being eaten.

P.S. Please if you are going to shorten my tag use something else as calling me Deus makes me uncomfortable, it's Latin for God.

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Oy! How long have you been Catholic??? Because, you are reminded of your covenants only about EVERY SINGLE time the Priest raises the wafer... In Catholicism, your entire salvation is dependent on that covenant - if you do this, God will do that - admit you to heaven. If you do something else, He'll send you to hell! You don't get either one automagically!

That's not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Partaking of the Eucharist joins you to God, sinning (i.e. murder) separates you from God. By joining in communion with Christ and the Church you are not promising anything, remember Jesus rebukes people for making oaths.

[Guest]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Catholics and LDS do not have the same usage. Same term but they mean two completely different things.

The Catholic teaching is that God established a covenant with His people through a sacrifice, blood being poured on an alter and on the people and then the sacrifice being eaten.

P.S. Please if you are going to shorten my tag use something else as calling me Deus makes me uncomfortable, it's Latin for God.

Sorry... DeusCaritas.

It is the same usage.

Everlasting covenant is the covenant of Christ.

There were 6 covenants before that...In Catholicism, none of them are considered everlasting because the laws were replaced by newer laws. Here's the list: Edenic, Adamic, Noahite, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic. In Catholicism, we are not held to these covenants. We are held to the Messianic (New and Everlasting) covenant. Which is the covenant that everybody else today and in the future are held to. This covenant is in effect forever and ever and ever.

In LDS doctrine, the everlasting covenant has been revealed since the time of Adam. But as people broke the covenants, they had to be restored at every dispensation. Today's dispensation is the final dispensation until Christ's coming.

Edited May 19, 2013 by anatess

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Sorry... DeusCaritas.

It is the same usage.

Everlasting covenant is the covenant of Christ.

There were 6 covenants before that...In Catholicism, none of them are considered everlasting because the laws were replaced by newer laws. Here's the list: Edenic, Adamic, Noahite, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic. In Catholicism, we are not held to these covenants. We are held to the Messianic (New and Everlasting) covenant. Which is the covenant that everybody else today and in the future are held to. This covenant is in effect forever and ever and ever.

In LDS doctrine, the everlasting covenant has been revealed since the time of Adam. But as people broke the covenants, they had to be restored at every dispensation. Today's dispensation is the final dispensation until Christ's coming.

Ok... So when the Jews disobeyed God were they no longer his people?

Also, I am not aware of any teaching the Catholic Church has on the 6 covenants you listed. Please provide me with a reference.

Edited May 19, 2013 by DeusCaritasEst

[Guest]

That's not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Partaking of the Eucharist joins you to God, sinning (i.e. murder) separates you from God. By joining in communion with Christ and the Church you are not promising anything, remember Jesus rebukes people for making oaths.

I've been Catholic longer than I've been LDS. Partaking of the Eucharist renews your covenants.

Explain to me then what your understanding of the New and Everlasting Covenant that is pronounced during the Eucharistic Celebration.

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Explain to me then what your understanding of the New and Everlasting Covenant that is pronounced during the Eucharistic Celebration.

The New Covenant according the the CCC is the Law of the Gospel.

1983 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit received by faith in Christ, operating through charity. It finds expression above all in the Lord's Sermon on the Mount and uses the sacraments to communicate grace to us.

1984 The Law of the Gospel fulfills and surpasses the Old Law and brings it to perfection: its promises, through the Beatitudes of the Kingdom of heaven; its commandments, by reforming the heart, the root of human acts.

1985 The New Law is a law of love, a law of grace, a law of freedom.

1986 Besides its precepts the New Law includes the evangelical counsels. "The Church's holiness is fostered in a special way by the manifold counsels which the Lord proposes to his disciples in the Gospel"

[Guest]

The New Covenant according the the CCC is the Law of the Gospel.

Yes. But you need to point to the section when the covenant was established to know what the covenant is.

Here's the relevant sections in the Catechism:

Part 1, Section 1, Chapter 2, Article 1

Summarized in Paragraphs 68-73 as follows (bold mine) -

68 By love, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. He has thus provided the definitive, superabundant answer to the questions that man asks himself about the meaning and purpose of his life.

69 God has revealed himself to man by gradually communicating his own mystery in deeds and in words.

70 Beyond the witness to himself that God gives in created things, he manifested himself to our first parents, spoke to them and, after the fall, promised them salvation (cf. Gen 3:15) and offered them his covenant.

71 God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and with all living beings (cf. Gen 9:16). It will remain in force as long as the world lasts.

72 God chose Abraham and made a covenant with him and his descendants. By the covenant God formed his people and revealed his law to them through Moses. Through the prophets, he prepared them to accept the salvation destined for all humanity.

73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father's definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.

The covenant is basically summed up in the Gospel of John as: For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not die but shall have eternal life.

Hence - the New and Everladting Covenant is simply -

Our Promise: Believe in Christ

God's Promise: Everlasting Life (salvation)

In a nutshell. Of course, what is involved in that belief is not as simple as just reciting the Apostle's Creed. Hence the entire catechism showing us the law to follow. And in LDS teaching, the restored gospel.

Edited May 19, 2013 by anatess

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Hmmm, Ok so where does it say that we can even break a covenant, much less an "I'll do this if you'll do that"?

[Guest]

Hmmm, Ok so where does it say that we can even break a covenant, much less an "I'll do this if you'll do that"?

You break your covenant when you don't do your part of it. Hence, the need to confess your sins to the priest and do penance to bring you back into the covenant. When your covenant is broken, the priest usually asks you to abstain from partaking of the bread until such time that your covenant is restored and you are deemed worthy. Covenants, by definition, is an agreement between God and His people laying out Conditions to obtain Blessings.

Edited May 20, 2013 by anatess

[Blackmarch]

I've always heard that the LDS church believes in marriage lasting into the afterlife. Is this correct? What are good resources to learn more about this? From what I understand the LDS faith is one of the only churches that teaches that doctrine, unless I'm mistaken. My next question would be how does that belief of a marriage continued into the next life relate to these verses from Luke and Mark... (I ask this sincerely, I have always been very curious about the dynamics of the afterlife, if that makes sense)

Mark 12:25

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Luke 20:34-36

And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

We've been given more insight in to what happens in the after life, and we can see that Christ is only giving a small insight here to a specific part of that life regarding certain types of people...

According to revelation given to Joseph smith, after death there is a waiting period in the spirit world, where individuals who have not had the chance to receive the gospel can receive it, as well as a chance to receive the various ordinances like baptism, priesthood, marriage, etc... (which is why the LDS church does these by proxy for individuals who have passed on, one reason why the LDS temple is important to the LDS).

After this waiting period, the second coming will occur and the resurrection will happen.. once everyone is resurrected there will be no more chance to accept the gospel, take upon them the ordinances (including getting married).. all that will be taken care of before the resurrection takes place (all marriage issues, priesthood callings, etc..) .

After the resurrection occurs people will be rewarded according to their desires and the actions they have taken, and will be taken or sent to the part of heaven that is just for them, based upon how much of God and Christ they accept and are willing to be obedient to- the LDS understand from the revelations to Joseph Smith that there 3 major divisions which they call the Celestial, terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms, each one greater than the following one.

Those who are sent to the Celestial Kingdom, will be the ones who have fully accepted Christ, have been obedient to him, followed the promptings of the holy spirit, and etc.. These individuals will be able to keep their marriage, keep their priesthood, and be glorified to be reign with Christ, who will gain glory and give glory to God and Christ forever and ever.

In the terrestrial kingdom will be the individuals who were able to accept and be obedient to some but not all of the Gospel, These individuals will have glory and be great, but not as great as those who will attain the celestial kingdom, nor will they be able to progress the same as they. These individuals will not be able to keep their marriage, and will be as angels.

In the Telestial kingdom are those who rejected the gospel but later accept it after much suffering. Like those in the terrestrial kingdom they will have glory, but not near as great. they will also be resurrected and will also serve God's purposes.

Finally there will be a few that will choose to completely reject God and choose that which is abominable in His sight over that which is, even if it means to suffer forever for it. These will be sent to whats called outer darkness (basically the final hell).

anyways now with this in mind lets look back to what Christ says in luke and mark, which one is it closest too? (also keep in mind he is talking to a group of people who disbelieve the resurrection, and have not accepted the gospel beyond the law of moses) it looks like he's giving a glimpse of what is going to happen to them (if they don't repent and come unto him); that they will be either of the terrestrial or telestial resurrections and indeed, there will not be marriage or giving in marriage when that occurs.

Anyways most of this can be found in the LDS scripture of the Doctrine and Covenants, section 76.

[Just_A_Guy]

ElectofGod replied to the OP with this:

So, my question is if a husband and wife were sealed for time and eternity, and the husband died. The wife remarries and is sealed to her second husband for time and eternity and her second husband dies. The wife remarries and is sealed to her third husband for time and eternity and he dies...etc,etc,etc. To whom is she married to in the resurrection? The first? second? third? All?

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures (all of them), nor the power (including, but not limited to, the character) of God.

I doubt continued indulgences in "gotcha!" theology will give you a much more satisfactory answer than that. When you start getting really interested in an answer, consider reading D&C 76 and D&C 132.

In the meantime--have a blessed day. :)

Edited May 21, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

You break your covenant when you don't do your part of it. Hence, the need to confess your sins to the priest and do penance to bring you back into the covenant. When your covenant is broken, the priest usually asks you to abstain from partaking of the bread until such time that your covenant is restored and you are deemed worthy. Covenants, by definition, is an agreement between God and His people laying out Conditions to obtain Blessings.

How many times did you go to confession as a Catholic? I can receive the Eucharist the moment the priest absolves me from my sins En Persona Christi, not whenever I feel I have been forgiven. Plus, it's not a promise that has been broken but a relationship.

[pam]

Well we believe that covenants are promises. We do our part and God does His part.

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Well we believe that covenants are promises. We do our part and God does His part.

Fair enough, however, partaking in the Eucharistic Feast known as the Mass is not me making a promise to God according to Catholic teachings, but entering into the Divine life of Christ. It would be foolish of me to promise God anything, for one they would be pie crust promises(easily made, easily broken). Additionally, we can't do anything if God did not will it so. If an "I'll do this if you'll do that" is the relationship shared with God it seems we can choose to do His will or not, Gods part is done regardless.

Edited May 23, 2013 by DeusCaritasEst

[pam]

it seems we can choose to do His will or not, Gods part is done regardless.

Let me put it another way. When we (LDS) are baptized we make a promise with God that we will keep his commandments or a covenant in other words. We then know that God in return will bless us. We don't always recognize the blessings He gives us but he does bless us. Those blessings could be a number of things. Good health, happiness, a number of things. But again, it's all predicated on us keeping our part of the promise in order to receive those blessings.

If we don't do our part, we lose many of the blessings we might have otherwise received.

[Anddenex]

It would be foolish of me to promise God anything, for one they would be pie crust promises(easily made, easily broken). Additionally, we can't do anything if God did not will it so. If an "I'll do this if you'll do that" is the relationship shared with God it seems we can choose to do His will or not, Gods part is done regardless.

Interesting, making a promise with God is "foolishness." I wonder how you then interpret this as a Catholic:

"There are two types of priests within the Church; a "religious" priest who vows to live according to the evangelical counsels within the framework of an established religious community, and a "diocesan" priest. The diocesan priest does not live within a religious community, rather he ministers in a specific geographical area. He does not make vows to live the evangelical counsels in the same manner as his religious priest brethren. Upon his ordination, he vows obedience to God, through the Bishop of his chosen diocese. That vow of obedience encompasses a voluntary promise of celibacy for the sake of the Church."

1. Do you find this individuals information correct?

2. He "vows" and "voluntary promises" to be celibate?

3. Your view then this promise would be foolish because it can be, as you say, "easily made, easily broken"?