Receiving the Second Comforter-Personal Visit From Christ?

[skalenfehl]

Minor correction: Denver Snuffer claims he has been there before. And he also seems to want us to think that, generally speaking, the Church leadership hasn't.

Fair enough. In all earnestness, however, unless one has read his books, one simply cannot jump to conclusions without understanding the context of his blog entries, which obviously results in a wide spectrum of speculation.

Now, I'm sure that such a concept is one that would be attractive to many. Who wouldn't want a personal visit from Jesus Christ our Savior in this life? Such a special interaction with the Divine, following many examples in the scriptures and recounted throughout the Restoration, would surely be a life-changing experience. But the skeptic in me also questions this.

What are your thoughts on this? From what I'm aware, Denver Snuffer is a controversial author. However ignoring him specifically, what about this concept of receiving the Second Comforter, a personal visit from the Lord, in this life? Has anyone read this book? It seems that while this concept isn't really taught in church

Anyway, to Jason_J and the skeptic in you: I have this book and I have read it. (I also have his book, "Come, Let Us Adore Him" and I highly recommend it. Never be a skeptic when it comes to gospel doctrine. Prove all things and if your heart is right, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth of all things. Our Savior has declared on more than one occasion to more than one nation that it will be opened if we knock. He will make His abode with you and so will His Father. It is not an easy path and happens line upon line. You must truly become like Christ and then in His own due time, when He has proven you, it will happen.

This concept of calling and election isn't taught any more like it once was. Most people have not begun to dig deep enough to see that the example of this very promise is interspersed throughout the Book of Mormon by most if not all the prophets from Nephi through Moroni. Bruce R. McConkie taught it. And there is an excellent article about receiving our calling and election and "another comforter" by Marion G. Romney, who in my research is the last general authority to declare it over the pulpit and it was during General Conference! I wonder how many members back then took it to heart.

The Light of Christ - Ensign May 1977 - ensign

For the most part, members as a whole struggle with simple things like hometeaching, regular temple attendance, tithing, keeping the Sabbath day holy, even spending more than fifteen minutes in prayer. When was the last time you spent an hour or even three or four or more hours in earnest supplication, calling upon His name? I tell you that when you do, and if your heart is right, you do receive personal revelation. Become as Enos! Become as Moriancumer, who was blessed greatly because as Christ told him, "this long time have ye cried unto me."--Ether 1:43

Read Ether chapter 4 for some profound declarations and promises! And if you are really ambitious in your studies, find out how many times the word unbelief is used throughout the New Testament, The Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine & Covenants. Unbelief MUST be overcome to take this journey.

Every Article of Fath begins with "We believe." I like number seven:

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

I'm going to add ministering of angels, receiving our calling and election, receiving the Second Comforter, receiving the fullness of the priesthood, which is the fullness of the Father. I believe it!!

I also believe number nine:

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

I especially believe number thirteen!

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I hope that you read Marion G. Romney's address from the Ensign article I linked. I hope that you read Ether chapter 4 and I do hope that you read that book, The Second Comforter. They will help you in your journey.

[Anddenex]

What are people meaning by "fullness" of the priesthood? Note: I am seeking to understand your meaning, not mine own.

[skalenfehl]

What are people meaning by "fullness" of the priesthood? Note: I am seeking to understand your meaning, not mine own.

Fullness means everything; "all that the Father hath."--D&C 84:38

If I remember correctly, sections 76 and 93 provide very good insight.

[HiJolly]

What are people meaning by "fullness" of the priesthood? Note: I am seeking to understand your meaning, not mine own.

Historically speaking, the 'fullness' of the MP was first taught by Joseph in Nauvoo. It was given by the second anointing and included, among other things, the keys to sealing on earth and in heaven. Therefore, one receiving the 'fullness' via the temple second anointing could thereafter perform eternal marriages, having authority within themselves to do so.

This is why Pres. Heber J. Grant felt he had to discontinue the second anointings, to finally cut off the polygamist offshoots who claimed they had the priesthood keys to eternal sealings. Of course all the apostates had to do at that point was point out that Joseph saw God as 14 year-old and before the Church was established, thereby proving that the priesthood is outside and independent of the Church.

...and subsequently why Spencer W. Kimball when he had become prophet restored the second anointing. There's a reason the other General Authorities described him as a prophet's prophet. Of course he also did what he could to limit apostacy, removing from the Church the practice of established prayer circles within our Stakes (done outside the temples).

I love history. It's a bit scary at times, but is a treasure in my life. A treasure only possible via the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

HJ

[HiJolly]

OTOH, you've got to keep in mind that the temple conveyance of the second anointing was kind of a 'pun' in sacred ritual. It was the fulfillment of the FIRST anointing of the temple endowment. And of course this can only be given by the Holy Ghost (or any member of the Godhead) personally. Not by Joseph or anyone else in the temple.

So it's a pun. Maybe there's a better word for it. Suggestions?

The symbolism in ritual is essential, but to my mind this level of symbolism is a bit mind-blowing.

HJ

[Just_A_Guy]

So it's a pun. Maybe there's a better word for it. Suggestions?

Type and shadow?

[ElectofGod]

But according to that logic, the gift of the Holy Ghost isn't in the Church either; because it--like the sealing power--comes from God, and because it--like the sealing power--may not necessarily come immediately just because someone has received their ordination to it.

I can see how what you're saying is true in one sense; indeed, a lot of this boils down to semantics. But then, why does Snuffer use the turns of phrase that he does if he doesn't mean for us to take them at face value? Does he enjoy shocking his readers? Who knows? He enjoys waking people up and getting them to realize they are not obedient as they should be.

This is the whole problem the past few pages. Its all context. This is why I said read the book because I was just as troubled when I read what you said. But your comparision of the HG and the sealing power is EXACTLY what I was getting at.

That is what I think denver meant, IF he didn't than I don't know what he meant. But I think it is what he meant. Because he looks at things in a different manner, I think this is why he has a love/hate relationsship

Anyways I think the past few posts have been able to state what I was not as well. Pheww I didn't teach too much false doctrine (especially last few pages where my context was completely different).

Honestly took me two pages to figure out what i was getting too until I found that quote above. I knew what the answer was just not how to explain it. PTHG seems to be all about church history problems and why we shouldn't loose our testimony due to it. Surprised you are reading it. I'll stick to his books SC, Come Let us adore him.

[mikbone]

My beef with Denver Snuffer and his followers

Denver Snuffer has created a cookbook of instructions wherein a person can receive their calling and election.

I recently read the second comforter and thought that it was an interesting book. I did learn one concept, which was the importance of Home Teaching. I have been known to slack on home teaching in the past... But the book is not scripture. It does not have the same feeling as reading holy script and I was not inspired during the reading of the text. Obviously, I should have had a better testimony of home teaching before reading his book.

I learned the concepts of receiving ones calling and election as a youth. No one had to tell me about it, and most people that knew me probably would have described me as a dumb jock. Joseph Smith received a visitation from God when he was 14. I was curious, and I started to study on the concept. I only had to read a few books to understand the basics of the ordinance. The Scriptures, Mormon Doctrine, and the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. I had yet to receive my endowment...

I attempted to receive my C&E prior to my mission and I was rebuked. See D&C 67:10 and Ether 12:6. I want you to know that I have yet to receive my C&E. I still need to work on humility and I don't know if I am ready yet for the test that will precede the event. But I have no doubts that it is an event that will occur. Either in this life or the next.

The trial for receiving ones C&E has left an impression upon me. I understand from prior study and prayer that it will be a great undertaking. It will require righteousness, humility, discernment, and much fortitude.

The following passages are probably some of the most important concepts pertaining to receiving ones Calling and Election.

The other comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest & perhaps understood by few of this generation, After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins & is Baptized for the remission of his sins & received the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering & thirsting after Righteousness. & living by every word of God & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted. &c When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John in the XIV ch from the 12th to the 27 verses Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses.

Joseph Smith, Jr. Council Meeting of Presidency and Twelve Apostles on June 27, 1839 (Commerce, Ill.)

Sources: Wilford Woodruff Journal, Willard Richards Pocket Companion

D&C 129

Moses 1, JSH 1:16

I wonder how many Saints have sought after their C&E and have been deceived. After having read just a few passages from the desk of Denver Snuffer I have some serious reservations...

I know that the apostles have had their C&E. I know that Brother Yoshihiko Kikuchi has had his C&E. I sometimes wonder if members of my high council have had their C&E. But I don't ask people if they have had their C&E. And if and when I receive my C&E I will not report it to the world.

We hold these things sacred.

The Prophet Joseph Smith was a very wise man, and no doubt inspired.

Let not any man publish his own righteousness for others can do that for him. sooner let him confess his sins & then he will be forgiven & he will bring forth more fruit. When a man is chastised he gets angry & will not endure it.

Keeping Confidences

The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them, we do not keep our own secrets but reveal our difficulties to the world even to our enemies then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord. Joseph says I can keep a secret till dooms day

Joseph Smith, Jr. Sermon delivered at Smith Homestead on Sunday December 19, 1841

Source: Wilford Woodruff Journal

Hey nuclear fission is great. But giving an instruction book on how to make ones own atom bomb in your backyard is probably not a good thing. There are probably some good reasons why the church authorities stress the basics and are not preaching the importance of receiving ones calling and election during general conference. The doctrine of C&E is clear and well documented in the Scriptures but it is there for those who study, ponder, and practice the gospel.

I love brother Holland dearly. I hope to emulate him and even our savior. I would rather follow brother Holland's example then Denver Snuffer's.

Now their is some grand secret ther & keys to unlock the subject Not withstanding the Apostle exhorts them to make their Calling Add to their faith virtue Knowledge temperance &C yet he exhorts them to make their Calling & election Shure & though they had herd the audible voice from heaven bearing testinoy that Jesus was the Son of God yet he says we have a more sure word of Prophecy where unto ye do well that ye take heed as unto a light shining in a dark place. Now wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy than to hear the voice of God saying this is my Beloved Son &C Now for the Secret & grand Key though they might hear the voice of God & know that Jesus was the Son of God this would be no evidence that their election & Calling & election was made shure that they had part with Christ & was a Joint heir with him, they then would want that more sure word of Prophecy that they were sealed in the heavens & had the promise of eternal live in the Kingdom of God then having this promise sealed unto them it was as an anchor to the Soul Sure & Steadfast though the thunders might roll & lightnings flash & earthquakes Bellow & war gather thick around yet this hope & knowledge would support the soul in evry hour of trail [trial] trouble & tribulation Then Knowledge through our Lord & savior Jesus Christ is the grand Key that unlocks the glories & misteries of the Kingdom of heaven Compair this principle once with Christondom at the present day & whare are they with all their boasted religion piety & sacredness while at the same time they are Crying out against Prophets Apostles Angels Revelation, Prophesyings, & Visions &C. Why they are Just ripening for the damnation of hell,they will be damned for they reject the more glorious principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ & treat with disdain & trample under foot the main key that unlocks the heavens & puts in our possession the glories of the Celestial world. Yes I say such will be damned with all their professed godliness

Then I would exhort you to go on & continue to call upon God until you make your Calling & election sure for yourselves by obtaining this more sure word of Prophesey & wait patiently for the promise untill you obtain it.

Joseph Smith, Jr. Sermon delivered at Yelrome, Hancock County, Ill. on Sunday May 14, 1843

Source: Wilford Woodruff Journal

Edited April 30, 2013 by mikbone
Added last Joseph Smith Quotation

[ElectofGod]

mikbone, great comment. We all find a different way to our heavenly father. Every personality is so different that some people need a direct bold approach. Others need a soft approach. Its beautiful how Heavenly father gives us someone in our lives to help us draw to Christ. The same person can and does rub wrong to others. But that is why they are sent to certain people and only them.

I say if there is anything that upsets the individual about how Denver writes don't read Denver's books. I will say that about anyone. He is just a fool as he calls himself. The apostles and prophets will bring us closer to Christ if we will look and listen. They teach us everything we need for the milk of the gospel (occasional meat). Some do need a different approach than GC others don't. Others feel like "they are failing us" when they are not, they are just not understanding the teachings the way they should be. So Christ sends someone that CAN touch their hearts. I feel like you about Holland he is a very inspirational speaker.

I say just stick to what the Lord speaks for us to do through the spirit. It will inform us what to do.

BTW: "I know that the apostles have had their C&E.", How do you know if they have not written it? This is exactly what Denver was writing about. This is a sincere question, not trying to cause contention.

A great trial for a C&E can be a personal close family member offending us... or loved one... It may not be pretty when we have the trial you talked about hehe. :S

[mikbone]

BTW: "I know that the apostles have had their C&E.", How do you know if they have not written it? This is exactly what Denver was writing about. This is a sincere question, not trying to cause contention.

Because the spirit has born witness unto me.

I have no idea if Denver Snuffer has has his C&E, but I somehow doubt it, despite his words.

[ElectofGod]

Just a reminder, we don't have to agree with him. But he is an anointed one if he is not lying. So we should seek to still love and respect others even if we don't agree with what he says.

Back to doctrine.

What is the testimony of Jesus? Favorite quote by Joseph Smith

Many of the sects cry out O I have the testimony of Jesus, I have the spirit of God But away with Jo Smith he says he is a Prophet But their is to be no Prophets nor revelations in the last days; But stop sir the Revelator says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy 40 So by your own mouth you are condemned.

Widtsoe, John A.; Whitney, Orson F.; Roberts, B. H.; Smith, Joseph Fielding; Smith, Joseph; Ehat, Andrew; Smith, Lucy Mack; Cannon, George Q.; Taylor, John (2012-02-25). Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition including the LDS Standar Works, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, History of the Church, History of Joseph by His Mother, and More (Kindle Locations 2864-2866). Packard Technologies. Kindle Edition.

IF we have the testimony of Jesus, are we not all prophets?

James Burgess Notebook

Remarks on is there to be no more Prophets. John the Revelator says that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophicy. 12 Now if any man has the testimony of Jesus has he not the spirit of prophecy and if he has the spirit of prophicy I ask is he not a prophet and if a prophet will he can receive revalation And any man that does not receive revelation for himself must be damned for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophicy for Christ says ask and you shall receive. 13 And if he happens to receive anything I ask will it not be a revelation. And if any man has not the testimony of Jesus or the spirit of God he is none of his Christ's 14 namely And if not his he must be ****'d* What are we to understand by a Prophet It is his character to predict things that are in the future. I ask what right has any man or set of men or preist or set of preists to say if a man will not do so and so he shall be ****'d. Is he not takeing upon himself or assumeing the character of a Prophet consequently he must either be a true or false Prophet.

Widtsoe, John A.; Whitney, Orson F.; Roberts, B. H.; Smith, Joseph Fielding; Smith, Joseph; Ehat, Andrew; Smith, Lucy Mack; Cannon, George Q.; Taylor, John (2012-02-25). Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition including the LDS Standar Works, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, History of the Church, History of Joseph by His Mother, and More (Kindle Locations 3131-3139). Packard Technologies. Kindle Edition.

I have always found this interesting.

[Vort]

IF we have the testimony of Jesus, are we not all prophets?

Yes, of course. Moses wanted a nation of kings and priests, each being a prophet. But the fact that you're a prophet does not authorize you to preach or give revelation beyond your own stewardship.

[skalenfehl]

Yes, of course. Moses wanted a nation of kings and priests, each being a prophet. But the fact that you're a prophet does not authorize you to preach or give revelation beyond your own stewardship.

This is true. I wasn't going to reply, and I stepped away from the computer because I don't want to keep sounding my own trumpet, but the Spirit brought me back to address this. Please bear with me.

Yes, would that all men were prophets. Moses truly understood. But how do we know what someone else's stewardship is? Is it only when we recognize the message itself is from the Lord? A few examples:

Once Lehi prayed and made intercession for Jerusalem, a process happened and he was given a holy calling. Why did the Jews not recognize his stewardship? Why did they not recognize him as a prophet? He was outside the hierarchy of the church. Most importantly, why did they not recognize that it wasn't Lehi's message of warning but the Lord's?

Why did King Noah not recognize the voice of the Lord in Abinadi's message? Why did the people idolize King Noah so much that they saw no wrong in him? How were they living that they could not see this? Where did Abinadi gain so much knowledge about doctrine and the revelations of Isaiah? Why was Abinadi called to address King Noah? Why did he and his priests who taught the Law of Moses not recognize Abinadi's stewarship to prophecy to them?

Amulek was called but he "would not hear." Why did he not hear? He was called but was he not "chosen"? Was his heart so set upon his industry; the things of the world? (D&C 121) it wasn't until Alma was led to him that he realized the stewardship given to him to be the "second witness" of the Lord demanded by the laws in the land of Ammonihah.

Why did the people of Zarahemla not recognize Samuel the Lamanite's stewardship to bring them glad tidings of the birth of the Savior? Why did they reject him and cause him to return to warn them from atop a wall? Why was Samuel, "a Lamanite" not recognized as a "prophet" until much, much later in the Book of Mormon? 3 Nephi 1:9Â*, 3 Nephi 8:3Â*, Mormon 2:10Â*

There are more examples in scriptural history throughout the Old and New Testament of messengers outside the priestly class/presiding authorities/church heierarchy coming to deliver words from the Lord. The question to ponder is why did the people not recognize the Lord's voice in the messages? Yes, there are false prophets and false teachers, etc. But how can we truly know unless we prove all things? Only the Spirit can guide us. Did the people not truly have the Spirit in their lives as they had supposed? How are we today like and unlike any or all of the saints in previous dispensations?

[Anddenex]

There are more examples in scriptural history throughout the Old and New Testament of messengers outside the priestly class/presiding authorities/church heierarchy coming to deliver words from the Lord. The question to ponder is why did the people not recognize the Lord's voice in the messages? Yes, there are false prophets and false teachers, etc. But how can we truly know unless we prove all things? Only the Spirit can guide us. Did the people not truly have the Spirit in their lives as they had supposed? How are we today like and unlike any or all of the saints in previous dispensations?

The examples you provide are during times of wickedness, not righteousness. The House of Israel again turned away from the Lord, and the Lord called men, within their stewardship, to address the people. They were not receiving revelation for the body of the Church, they were testifying of a judgment to come.

King Noah called priests after his own heart, they were not righteous men who were called by God in the first place. If the body who are supposed to be teaching the truth are not teaching the truth then who does the Lord call?

The Pharisees were the teachers during the Lord's time and they followed doctrines after their own hearts. John the Baptist, was outside of the wickedness within the Church of God, but was well within his stewardship to teach faith and repentance.

Stewardships are not some obscure line, unknown to anybody, they are very easily identified. Our prophets and apostles are very cautious today to say anything is from the Lord that isn't, and is more their opinion than doctrine from God. If the prophets and apostles are very clear today, then members of the Church should be clear when they are providing their own interpretation of doctrine.

All our stewardships are clear.

[ElectofGod]

Its interesting to see how the concept of these people are ordained. We cannot know entirely where they came from or what line authority they did have. Our record was not a history but things of spiritual worth. Whats in the book of mormon was for our spiritual benfeit. So we should ask why did the Lord put it in there? What is he teaching us?

Another interesting scripture I just ran into this past week.

Enos 1:22 And there were exceedingly many prophets among us. And the people were a stiffnecked people, hard to understand.

23 And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them.

I am very interested to know how these prophets came about. We know this is mormon abridging the record he was reading already written. It gives another reason for having many prophets. How many is EXCEEDINGLY?

Whenever people become a stiffnecked. He goes on in the next few chapters (and the entire book of mormon) defining what stiffnecked means. "hard to understand", is just one.

Its even interesting to see how they were not just preaching but prophesying to the people. Anyone know missionaries stories of this? However I would not call missionaries prophets unless they have received the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I don't know the answers just asking the questions. Even today the people ARE stiffnecked people and just as wicked as back than. The book of mormon almost never talks about the church very often, just the people around them.

I feel the Lord may have hid some of these details for a purpose to get us to rely on the spirit. Maybe others have insight on this?

Edited May 1, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Vort]

I am very interested to know how these prophets came about. We know this is mormon writing so HE was reading an account already written or from personal experience.

Actually, in this instance it was not Mormon writing, but Enos. Mormon physically inserted the small plates of Nephi into his abridgment, or perhaps copied them verbatim. But the words are not Mormon's at all; they are pure Enos.

[Finrock]

Some ideas I had after reading this verse in Luke.

"Unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" (Luke 12:48).

The Savior Jesus Christ was given much. He was given His Godhood prior to Him coming to the earth. I believe the Father gave so much to His Son because so much was required of the Son.

If Luke 12:48 applies to the Savior, then it certainly applies to us.

God has given each of us talents. Some a little, some a lot. To those who have a little, a little is required of them. But if those who have a little remain faithful to what they have, they will be given all that the Father has, because the Savior Jesus Christ was perfectly faithful to what was given Him and fulfilled His role as a sacrifice for us so that we could also go through our trial, our test, within the sphere God has placed us, to work out our salvation, trusting in God and in His Son, just as the Son trusted in His Father and relying on His strength to become exalted.

I believe our trial to become exalted will be based on our talents, on what God has given us. He will require of us only that which is just to require of us, and no more. He will also perfectly apply His mercy as we work to build our talents.

To me the parallels are clear. We are to emulate the Savior. Our trial cannot be what the Savior's trial was. Jesus was the only one worthy to receive all that the Father had prior to mortality and Jesus was the only one, therefore, capable of becoming a sacrifice for all.

But, I believe we must also become Jesus. Quite literally, those who have been baptized have covenanted to take upon them the name of the Son. I believe we are to seek out our talents and discover our weaknesses and begin to work out our exaltation just as the Savior demonstrated with His perfect and sinless example. Our trial will not be like the Savior's, but because of the atonement, if we endure our trial faithfully to the end, we will receive the same reward as the Savior because we were faithful to that which God has given us.

I believe because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, our individual sacrifice which God will require of us, will be sufficient to procure us the blessings of exaltation and eternal life.

Regards,

Finrock

[Anddenex]

I am very interested to know how these prophets came about. We know this is mormon abridging the record he was reading already written. It gives another reason for having many prophets. How many is EXCEEDINGLY?

It appears to me the pattern still follows and the Lord is unchanging. It is given unto us who have been warned to warn our neighbors.

These are individuals members who have taken to heart this counsel. I have met a few members who would easily be considered prophets today, as described in the Book of Mormon. A couple of my bishops and at least one Stake President.

The term prophets is similar to the term used in scripture for the prophetess in the New Testament who received witness that the Lord would be born while she yet lived.

Different dispensation required different methods. In the Old Testament we read about prophets who weren't even apart of the House of Israel? Why?

Ballam, who received witness that he should bless Israel and not curse Israel. Ballam wasn't among the chosen seed of Jacob/Israel, yet Ballam reached a point in spirituality that his people knew he was blessed of God and his people knew that who he cursed and who he blessed would be done. Ballam, was a prophet unto his people.

We know while the apostles and prophets were called, the Lord called other prophets in ancient America? Why hasn't the Lord called any additional prophets in our dispensation?

Why do we not have prophets in Russia, Australia, or other countries? The answer, we do have prophets in these nations, Elder Uchtdorf is evidence to this, however, these prophets and prophetess know and understand, they do not teach anything which is contradictory, or has not been revealed, unless they openly declare it is their opinion on the matter.

They know that it is only through the First Presidency, particularly the Lord's anointed that true doctrine, not yet revealed, will be revealed through to the Church as a whole, collectively. Individually the Lord is able to reveal all things; collectively what is not yet known to the body of the Church is only revealed through the standing prophet -- President Thomas S. Monson.

[skalenfehl]

The examples you provide are during times of wickedness, not righteousness. The House of Israel again turned away from the Lord, and the Lord called men, within their stewardship, to address the people. They were not receiving revelation for the body of the Church, they were testifying of a judgment to come.

King Noah called priests after his own heart, they were not righteous men who were called by God in the first place. If the body who are supposed to be teaching the truth are not teaching the truth then who does the Lord call?

The Pharisees were the teachers during the Lord's time and they followed doctrines after their own hearts. John the Baptist, was outside of the wickedness within the Church of God, but was well within his stewardship to teach faith and repentance.

Stewardships are not some obscure line, unknown to anybody, they are very easily identified. Our prophets and apostles are very cautious today to say anything is from the Lord that isn't, and is more their opinion than doctrine from God. If the prophets and apostles are very clear today, then members of the Church should be clear when they are providing their own interpretation of doctrine.

All our stewardships are clear.

But that's my whole point. The people didn't believe that they were wicked. Nephi's own brother, Laman claimed that the Jews were righteous. They didn't believe Jerusalem would be destroyed. In every examples I cited, the people did not believe they were wrong. Nobody likes being told that they are wicked. Nobody likes being called to repentance. We are all wicked. We all fall short. That's the rub.

King Noah claimed to teach the law of Moses. His priests sustained him and they were all sustained by the people, all of them in their wickedness. The people of Ammonihah believed that their laws were just. They were blinded by their foremost lawyers, who used their craft and skill to manipulate the laws. How could the people know better unless they, like Amulek did "hear" when they were called to repentance. The people of Zarahemla accused Samuel, a foreigner, of having a devil, and having the power of the devil. How could they accuse him of this unless they did not believe that they were themselves wicked? What did they know of heavenly things? Again, it wasn't until long after, that he was acknowledged to be a prophet.

Had Zaccharias not been struck dumb when he emerged from his duties in the temple, he would have declared having been visited by an angel and that he would be the father of a prophet and the forerunner of the Messiah. He would have been stoned to death for such blasphemy. I believe it was not a curse, but rather a blessing that preserved his life and in the process, the Jews perceived that he indeed had received a revelation. By the time John the Baptist had been preaching, he was well known by everyone that he was the son of Zaccharias, the Levite priest who had been in contact with divinity. And yet the leaders defied John. They defied anyone who had not claim of authority.

When John and Jesus began their ministries they were both confronted with challenges to their right to teach. When John first taught, he was challenged (John 1: 19-28)by them:

19 ¶And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

John told them who he was and who he was not. We read of their interaction through verse 28. His authority came from heaven.

Annas and Caiaphas were the respected and sustained leaders of the time, upheld by the Jews of the church. And yet the leaders (chief priests and elders) continually challenged Christ's authority. When the Savior began His ministry, the same presiding authorities were quick to confront Him with questions about His right to teach. I love the Savior's reply! (Matt 21: 23-27)

23 ¶And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Those with no connection to heaven as John and Christ truly had, authority is always everything. Once they establish that they have "authority", the debate is over. But we know that the rights of the priesthood, or their own priestly authority are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and when they have no connection to heaven, then do they really have authority?

But I'm getting way ahead of myself. My point again is, when was there NOT a wicked generation (with the exception of the city of Enoch)? As long as people needed to be preached the principles of faith, repentance, baptism, etc, there was a wicked generation. And we live in a wicked generation as well.

Back to my point. Why was Laman blind to the wickedness of the people of Jerusalem? Why were the King Noah's people blind to their wickedness? Why were the people of Ammonihah convinced of their "just laws"? Why did the people of Zarahemla accuse Samuel the Lamanite of having a devil?

Why can we look back to their times and see that they were living in wickedness, but at the time they couldn't see it? Why do we not see that perhaps we are also wicked and blind to many things? Why are we still under condemnation?

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

This condemnation has not been lifted. Moroni saw our day and that we would be "unwise" just as they were. The Book of Mormon was written so that we would not make the same mistakes. But we are making the same exact mistakes.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a fireside talk, which originated at BYU on June 6, 1993. Some of his words:

Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord’s statement that the Saints’ conduct had “brought the whole church under condemnation” (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, “This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent.” He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that “in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation.”

As for our own leaders, I sustain them with all my heart. I pray for them. I know that they are called by God, by prophecy and the laying on of hands. I know that they have their stewardships. But this does not mean that in these last days, many will prophesy just as Eldad and Medad did in Moses' camp. We do not need to envy for President Monson's sake because would to God that all men were prophets!

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come

Our stewardships are what God decides, just as He decided to give stewardship to Lehi to prophecy in Jerusalem although others like Jeremiah were already prophecying.

With love.

[Anddenex]

We do not need to envy for President Monson's sake because would to God that all men were prophets!

I agree that we as a people need to repent. I am reminded of the words of Joseph Smith who told us to look deep into our own heart and souls and then said something to this nature, "when I look into my heart...I know I need to repent of all my sins."

I am unsure what you are meaning by "envy for President Monson's sake", and I agree with the scripture that God wants all of us to be prophets; however, there is only one prophet which is called to lead and direct the affairs of God's Church and only one prophet who receives new revelation for the Church collectively.

God desiring all of us to be prophets does not mean we have the right to declare new truths. It is not within our stewardship, otherwise there would be more than one head, which ultimately would lead to confusion.

Those of us who learn doctrines, not yet revealed, should not teach it -- even if we have reached the level of spirituality like unto a prophet.

[Just_A_Guy]

OK, Skalenfehl. The Church-not the world, but the Church--is currently on an equivalent scale of wickedness to the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day, or the Nephites generally of Samuel the Lamanite's day. So Doctrine and Covenants 28 was voided out less than two years after it was given, and now anyone with a peep stone--or a publisher--can receive revelation for the Church.

By the way: if Samuel the Lamanite had complete authority to operate outside of the auspices of the Church, why did he send his converts back to Nephi to be baptized? And if the Church didn't recognize the authority that Samuel the Lamanite's did possess, then why did Nephi bother to record Samuel's words?

Tom Monson is no Caiaphas. The Twelve are not remotely equivalent to the priests of Noah.

And Denver Snuffer is no Samuel the Lamanite.

[skalenfehl]

OK, Skalenfehl. The Church-not the world, but the Church--is currently on an equivalent scale of wickedness to the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day, or the Nephites generally of Samuel the Lamanite's day. So Doctrine and Covenants 28 was voided out less than two years after it was given, and now anyone with a peep stone--or a publisher--can receive revelation for the Church.

By the way: if Samuel the Lamanite had complete authority to operate outside of the auspices of the Church, why did he send his converts back to Nephi to be baptized? And if the Church didn't recognize the authority that Samuel the Lamanite's did possess, then why did Nephi bother to record Samuel's words?

Tom Monson is no Caiaphas. The Twelve are not remotely equivalent to the priests of Noah.

And Denver Snuffer is no Samuel the Lamanite.

Samuel did not send anyone to be baptized. Those who believed his words, of their own accord, sought out Nephi, the presiding authority, to be baptized. I don't believe I claimed that Samuel's authority wasn't recognized by the church. But I did say that later on, he was acknowledged to be a prophet. We don't know the chronology of the record of Samuel's address. But we do have a clue. When the Savior visited them, he asked Nephi why one of Samuel's prophecies wasn't recorded. Thereafter it was included. There's so much we do not know and I try not to draw conclusions, only to share what I believe we do know based only on what we do have.

I absolutely agree that President Monson is no Caiaphas. I do not believe I even implied it, but if my previous post even infers this, then I apologize. It was not my intention. Again, I make every effort to be clear about what I write so that it can be taken at face value. I also did not imply that our quorum of the twelve are the equivalent of the priests of Noah.

I AM implying that it is very possible that WE the people; the members of the church are blind to our own wickedness, myself included.

And again, I am not even talking about Denver Snuffer. LOL, I'm not the one that cannot leave him alone.

[Just_A_Guy]

We don't know the chronology of the record of Samuel's address. But we do have a clue. When the Savior visited them, he asked Nephi why one of Samuel's prophecies wasn't recorded. Thereafter it was included.

The header to 3 Nephi 23 accepts your interpretation, but a close reading of verses 9-13 reveals that it was the fulfillment of the prophecy, not the prophecy itself, that needed to be recorded.

Moreover, even with the traditional interprettion the fundamental point remains: the Church thought enough of Samuel the Lamanite that it recorded his prophecies, which were later canonized. And Samuel did not cast aspersions on the the authority of Nephi or the Church of his day.

I absolutely agree that President Monson is no Caiaphas. I do not believe I even implied it, but if my previous post even infers this, then I apologize. It was not my intention. . . . I also did not imply that our quorum of the twelve are the equivalent of the priests of Noah.

I appreciate that, but I respectfully ask: why, then, did you bring it up, if you knew it to be inapposite to the present situation?

I AM implying that it is very possible that WE the people; the members of the church are blind to our own wickedness, myself included.

I agree.

And again, I am not even talking about Denver Snuffer. LOL, I'm not the one that cannot leave him alone.

You've brought up two Mosaic prophets, Abinadi, Samuel, and Jesus Himself to stand for the proposition that a prophet can operate outside the auspices of the Church. If you weren't making this argument to justify Snuffer's activities, then exactly who were you trying to justify?

[Vort]

The header to 3 Nephi 23 accepts your interpretation, but a close reading of verses 9-13 reveals that it was the fulfillment of the prophecy, not the prophecy itself, that needed to be recorded.

Thank you. I don't know why this is so often overlooked or misunderstood. It is clear as day that it was the FULFILLMENT of the prophecy that had not been recorded, and that the prophecy itself was well-known and almost certainly recorded.

[/pet_peeve]

By the way, this is another evidence that Christ's visit to the Nephites took place almost a year after the events. If Christ had come immediately afterward, how could he have expected the fulfillment of the prophecy to already have been recorded?

[skalenfehl]

The header to 3 Nephi 23 accepts your interpretation, but a close reading of verses 9-13 reveals that it was the fulfillment of the prophecy, not the prophecy itself, that needed to be recorded.

Moreover, even with the traditional interprettion the fundamental point remains: the Church thought enough of Samuel the Lamanite that it recorded his prophecies, which were later canonized. And Samuel did not cast aspersions on the the authority of Nephi or the Church of his day.

I do believe it was Mormon who included Samuel's writings, or at least it was Helaman's record as abridged by Mormon. I agree, Samuel did not cast aspersions at Nephi.

I appreciate that, but I respectfully ask: why, then, did you bring it up, if you knew it to be inapposite to the present situation?

Because (if I understand you correctly) my points regarding the present situation, is that the issue is not about the leadership regardless of authority. It's about the people; you, me, us--the membership.

You've brought up two Mosaic prophets, Abinadi, Samuel, and Jesus Himself to stand for the proposition that a prophet can operate outside the auspices of the Church. If you weren't making this argument to justify Snuffer's activities, then exactly who were you trying to justify?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come

Hopefully, all my posts in this thread can be seen directly relating to the context of the OP's query regarding receiving the Second Comforter and what it entails. There is a pattern to this, which is illustrated by most, if not all prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Lehi, Nephi, Moriancumer, etc, etc (calling, stewardship, prophecying, etc).

Edited May 1, 2013 by skalenfehl