The sealed plates

[ElectofGod]

Ether 4

4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

First we learn that "these plates" contain the record of the sealed portion.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

Why do we not have them yet? Because we are wicked and unclean before the Lord. Otherwards not sanctified.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

So who will reveal it? The record of Jared? Christ himself will reveal it to us. When will it happen? When we become clean from the blood of the sins of this generation.

What are the consequences from this record and rejecting the information?

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

9 And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire.

10 And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day.

Now how does it become revealed? Besides as mentioned in verse 7?

11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.

The one who believes these things, receives them, bears records of it? What is he bearing record of? Who is bearing it? How is that record different than verse 7? Or are they the same?

I am trying to connect verse 11 with 7. What do you think? What records are what? Is the Book of Mormon this record that we are rejecting in verse 7? Or verse 11? Does it contain the record of Jared?

[Traveler]

We can learn much by reading the previous chapter in Ether. It is not that difficult to comprehend what is going on in there verses and why certain things are being sealed and why the ancient record makes such reference and then leaves out specifics.

There are a couple of things to understand. One concerns the sacred covenants and the other concerns attitudes both within and outside "The Church". We are told that the record contains understanding of the history of man. I would submit that the sealed record has to do with temple covenants and those things revealed and learned by regular temple attendance. So it is that those faithful receive greater understanding and those that are not obedient to available covenants do not receive greater understanding.

I believe that the things are sealed and are kept from individuals but are given unto those that become one in marriage and one with G-d. In other words - without the understanding and respect of the marriage covenant one cannot receive the greater things.

I also believe that these things remained sealed and hidden to those men that do not respect women in marriage and those women that do not respect men in marriage. As long as the covenant of marriage is not properly respected and divorce remains an option when such option is not the proper option before G-d or if the true marriage covenant is not respected and sought among the saints - the more sacred things cannot be given.

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

What the Brother of Jared saw had been recorded by himself and passed down until Ether hid them up so that Limhi's people could find them. It was then that King Mosiah was able to interpret all the writings, but he did not make them all known, per the commandment of Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ had shown himself to the Nephites, then were all of bro. of Jared's vision given to all. Because 2,500 people at Bountiful had been preserved and had received the Second Comforter, having the veil parted for them, nothing could be kept back, just as nothing had been kept back from the bro. of Jared. They had seen everything from the foundation of the world to the end.

...And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then...

We must exercise faith. It is always the first step. How did the brother of Jared exercise faith? We read that he had a relationship with the Lord who favored him. "This long time have ye cried unto me..."

Nephi is the perfect example in the Book of Mormon of the process of exercising faith. The Book of Mormon teaches us that exercising faith means doing and becoming. When Nephi leaves Jerusalem with his family, he didn't even know who Jesus Christ was. Then his heart was softened because he had "diligently" sought the Lord. He spent a lot of time in prayer and supplication, pondering his father's teachings, inquiring diligently of the Lord until he was answered.

He exercised faith by performing tasks given him (1 Ne 3:7). After the Lord had fully proven Nephi, Nephi, having been true and faithful, had parted the veil and was ministered to by Jesus Christ. A lot of what Nephi records (prophecies), the bro. of Jared has also seen in vision. But Nephi was forbidden to write what John was foreordained to write. In the end, Nephi mourned because he could not write more. But before he closes his record, he had testified that he had seen Jesus, he had been given power in the priesthood, the sealing power...in other words, as written in D&C 76:

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

Nephi walked the path that the bro of Jared did. Both had exercised faith, moving forward, being proved until finally falling to their knees to partake of the fruit of the tree of life--Jesus Christ's love--they had become encircled in His embrace.

This is the main focus of the Book of Mormon and why it will bring us closer to Jesus Christ than any other book--but only if we do what it instructs. Nephi proved it. So did others all the way through Moroni, who hinted to us that being ministered to by angels is a sign that we are exercising strong faith, for their calling is to bring us to the veil. Angels call men to repentance. They also bring instructions, further light and knowledge.

Moroni 7:30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.

It is happening today. There are people today who are discovering what has been offered all along. People are unlocking the mysteries taught in the Book of Mormon. People are being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, receiving power in the priesthood, becoming kings (whereas in the temple were are only anointed to become kings and queens--not the same thing) and queens, becoming members of the church of the First born as Nephi and Enoch and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. God is no respector of persons and His hand is outstretched to each of us all the day long and He denies nobody.

Verse 7 and 11 refer to the same. Whoso receives such great things will bear record. To bear record means to bear witness. He becomes a witness and shall bear record that Jesus Christ lives, that he has seen Him and has been ministered to by Him and whatever else Jesus Christ commands him to bear record and to whom.

Edited July 22, 2013 by skalenfehl

[ElectofGod]

What great answers. Thanks :).

[skalenfehl]

You're welcome. Speaking of "every form of godliness," our Savior taught at least two tribes of Israel how to be godly. When we have learned to strip ourselves of all ungodliness as King Benjamin taught and become as Christ admonished to two tribes, we will be well on our way. Something to ponder.

[mikbone]

2 NE 27: 7-11

7 And behold the book shall be sealed; and in the book shall be a revelation from God, from the beginning of the world to the ending thereof.

8 Wherefore, because of the things which are sealed up, the things which are sealed shall not be delivered in the day of the wickedness and abominations of the people. Wherefore the book shall be kept from them.

9 But the book shall be delivered unto a man, and he shall deliver the words of the book, which are the words of those who have slumbered in the dust, and he shall deliver these words unto another;

10 But the words which are sealed he shall not deliver, neither shall he deliver the book. For the book shall be sealed by the power of God, and the revelation which was sealed shall be kept in the book until the own due time of the Lord, that they may come forth; for behold, they reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof.

11 And the day cometh that the words of the book which were sealed shall be read upon the house tops; and they shall be read by the power of Christ; and all things shall be revealed unto the children of men which ever have been among the children of men, and which ever will be even unto the end of the earth.

Ether 12:24

24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

[Speakzeasy]

ElectofGod http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/54789-sealed-plates.html#post762366

I am trying to connect verse 11 with 7. What do you think? What records are what? Is the Book of Mormon this record that we are rejecting in verse 7? Or verse 11? Does it contain the record of Jared?

Your question is a very good one. It is also one that cannot be answered by Smithite Mormonism.

Smithite Mormonism is the Religion of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church that has brought forth the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. This is stated clearly by Nephi:

And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed (1 Nephi 15:13). (italics added)

Note that the word "through" means 'Moving in one side and out of the other side'

Note that the word "from" is 'used as a function word to indicate physical separation'

In 3 Nephi we learn what the Lord told the nephites about the time period when the Gentiles who received the fullness of the Gospel would loss it:

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them (3 Nephi 16:10). (Italics added)

Note that the word "from" is 'used as a function word to indicate physical separation'

When the time frame is misunderstood, so are the scriptures. This discrepancy can be resolved. However, we are very stuck with the point of view given to us in Smithite Mormonism.

[Dravin]

Note that the word "from" is 'used as a function word to indicate physical separation'

That's one definition:

Definition of FROM

1

a —used as a function word to indicate a starting point of a physical movement or a starting point in measuring or reckoning or in a statement of limits <came here from the city> <a week from today> <cost from $5 to $10>

b —used as a function word to indicate the starting or focal point of an activity <called me from a pay phone> <ran a business from her home>

2

—used as a function word to indicate physical separation or an act or condition of removal, abstention, exclusion, release, subtraction, or differentiation <protection from the sun> <relief from anxiety>

3

—used as a function word to indicate the source, cause, agent, or basis <we conclude from this> <a call from my lawyer> <inherited a love of music from his father> <worked hard from necessity>

Link: From - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

[Just_A_Guy]

You know, speakzeasy, three "Smithite Mormons" have posted answers here thus far. It seems a little incongruous, in that context, to blithely assert that "Smithite Mormonism" cannot answer EoG's question.

And if you're trying to make a backdoor argument that Mormonism is somehow fallen, I would remind you of the site Terms and Conditions.

[Speakzeasy]

That's one definition:

Link: From - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

These words scripture are not written with random meaning. They must applied as the author meant for them to be applied. The idea that we can apply any definition to a word without following the subject does not really promote understanding.

To further the subject:

In 1 Nephi 15:13 we find:

"and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—"

Then in we 3 Nephi 16:10-11 we find:

. . . I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them (the Gentiles).

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

So that after the fullness of the Gospel is taken from the Gentiles who receive it (us) it will be given to the house of Israel. A fulfilling of the covenant made with the house of Israel. Both 1 Nephi 15:13 and 3 Nephi 16:10-11 point to the same time period.

Words in the scriptures must follow the subject or they loose their meaning.

(Sorry, I did not post here to redirect this to another subject.)

Edited July 25, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Dravin]

The idea that we can apply any definition to a word without following the subject does not really promote understanding.

I agree. Let me know when you encounter it.

[mordorbund]

These words scripture are not written with random meaning. They must applied as the author meant for them to be applied. The idea that we can apply any definition to a word without following the subject does not really promote understanding.

To further the subject:

In 1 Nephi 15:13 we find:

"and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—"

Then in we 3 Nephi 16:10-11 we find:

. . . I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them (the Gentiles).

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

So that after the fullness of the Gospel is taken from the Gentiles who receive it (us) it will be given to the house of Israel. A fulfilling of the covenant made with the house of Israel. Both 1 Nephi 15:13 and 3 Nephi 16:10-11 point to the same time period.

Words in the scriptures must follow the subject or they loose their meaning.

(Sorry, I did not post here to redirect this to another subject.)

Since we're insisting that we stay consistent with scriptural words, the fullness of the gospel is brought from the gentiles, not taken from the gentiles, suggesting that the gentiles haven't necessarily lost it.

It's popular in our church to state "I leave you my testimony", but nobody intends to imply that they've lost the testimony because it has been given to another.

[Speakzeasy]

The Lord has provided for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by means of the Melchizedek Priesthood, to be given the house of Israel to receive their inheritance. I have some limited information to the answer by what means it is that the Lord will use to transfer the Melchizedek Priesthood to its rightful heirs.

The discussion is way off topic of this tread. Not what I meant to happen.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Finrock]

Question: What is a "Smithite Mormon"?

Regards,

Finrock

[Speakzeasy]

Finrock

What is a "Smithite Mormon"?

I will answer your question, if you answer mine.

What is Strangite Mormonism?

What is Rigdonite Mormonism?

etc.

PrisonChaplain had an observation on the subject:

prisonchaplain

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/54135-testimony-book-mormon.html#post755721

Silly outsider question, but doesn't the Doctrine and Covenants have more of the teachings that are unique to LDS? The BoM reads much like the Old Testament to me. If I want to know what makes your church different, the D&C would seem to be the place to find out quickly. No?

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon Speakzeasy. Welcome to the forums! :)

Finrock

I will answer your question, if you answer mine.

What is Strangite Mormonism?

What is Rigdonite Mormonism?

etc.

Curious. Why do you make answering my question contingent upon me answering your question?

But, okay. From what I understand about Strangite and Rigdonite Mormonism is that they are/were off-shoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Is that correct?

PrisonChaplain had an observation on the subject:

prisonchaplain

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/54135-testimony-book-mormon.html#post755721

How does prisonchaplain's comment relate?

Regards,

Finrock

Edited July 26, 2013 by Finrock
Grammar

[ElectofGod]

The Lord has provided for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by means of the Melchizedek Priesthood, to be given the house of Israel to receive their inheritance. I have some limited information to the answer by what means it is that the Lord will use to transfer the Melchizedek Priesthood to its rightful heirs.

The discussion is way off topic of this tread. Not what I meant to happen.

I don't mind if its off topic. I like where its gone. Though do keep in terms with the terms and conditions if that is where you are leading. However, I don't think it is. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. We got it first, last.... Just like in the book of mormon they got it last, "first". Gentiles receive it in these last days before anyone else did. THan they will get it when the times of the gentiles is fulfilled. Its pretty consistent. Thus why is the plates revealed to us AFTER the times of the gentiles? Well we know the answer, because we are a wicked people stuck in unbelief. Now we have to repent until we are worthy of the greater things than we will be privileged to receive them.

[Speakzeasy]

Finrock

"off-shoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Here is a link about the Succession difficulties related to Joseph Smith's death in a Portable Data File (PDf) format located on byustudies.byu.edu (I "googled" it) at Brigham Young University web site:

Succession Crisis - BYU Studies - Brigham Young University:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=joseph%20smith%20Succession&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbyustudies.byu.edu%2FarticleDownload.aspx%3Ftitle%3D5216%26linkURL%3D16.2QuinnMormon-d34b21f7-1b48-4298-8746-0298a920b78f.pdf&ei=G-PyUbOuL46MyAHPwoC4CA&usg=AFQjCNFi9rIIuchE-C0AJv5gth2Payp4og&bvm=bv.49784469,d.aWc

You will find in the story of the succession to Joseph Smith, Jr. that Rigdonites, Strangites and others were not "off-shoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

What do they have in common? They all shared the same belief. The Doctrine and Covenants is an expression of that belief. You will find that to be true in the document at the link above.

By the way it does not say anything about the Doctrine and Covenants and any bodies belief. Try to separate "Mormonism" from the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smite, Jr. is its primary author. The author of the document link to above presents an attitude from the Mormon population toward Joseph Smith, that more or less continues today.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Just_A_Guy]

Speakzeasy, you need not assume we are unfamiliar with the succession crisis.

And your statement that "Rigdonites, Strangites, and others were not 'off-shoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'" only holds water if you believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is itself merely one "off-shoot" of Joseph Smith's restorationist movement among many, rather than the sole lawful and divinely-approved heir to that legacy.

[Speakzeasy]

ElectofGod,

I have no difficulties or problems with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Book of Mormon has been brought forth at the time that God saw fit. It was interpret by Joseph Smith, Jr. with the inspiration of God. It was first published in 1830. Its purpose is one of the covenants God made with father Abraham.

Here is a list relating to the covenants made with Abraham (not necessarily in this order):

The first covenant:

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. (Genesis 17:5)

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. (Genesis 17:15-16)

Yet to be fulfilled (In the Book of Revelation 5:6-10 you will find reference to this).

The second covenant:

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. (Genesis 17:5-7)

Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation . . . (Genesis 18:18).

This covenant can only fulfilled in the birth and crucifixion of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. It is the Covenant to the righteous of the House of Israel, and the remnant of the House of Israel that are yet to be gathered.

The third covenant:

. . . and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? (Genesis 18:18)

This is the covenant made with Abraham is to the Gentiles. This Covenant is made to the Gentiles through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Manasseh (the eldest son of Joseph).

Take a look at Alma 10:3 and explain the Book of Mormon is not from the descendants of Manasseh.

In Book of Mormon Nephi is told how the Book of Mormon would come about and to whom would receive it. This story can be found in 1 Ne. 13:21-36.

Now I can tell you that the people and civilization that Mormon and Moroni have compiled an abridgment about did actually exist. The names given to the people written about may or may not have been Nephites and Lamanites proper (as did the other people). But exist they did. The Book of Mormon is a fulfillment of Gods covenant that he made with Abraham relating to the Gentiles:

. . . all the nations of the earth shall be blessed . . . (Genesis 18:18).

I have no question about the covenant that was between Abraham and God relating to the Gentiles.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Speakzeasy]

Just_A_Guy

"Joseph Smith's restorationist movement"

And Brigham Young was not involved?

[Finrock]

Finrock

Here is a link about the Succession difficulties related to Joseph Smith's death in a Portable Data File (PDf) format located on byustudies.byu.edu (I "googled" it) at Brigham Young University web site:

Succession Crisis - BYU Studies - Brigham Young University:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=joseph%20smith%20Succession&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbyustudies.byu.edu%2FarticleDownload.aspx%3Ftitle%3D5216%26linkURL%3D16.2QuinnMormon-d34b21f7-1b48-4298-8746-0298a920b78f.pdf&ei=G-PyUbOuL46MyAHPwoC4CA&usg=AFQjCNFi9rIIuchE-C0AJv5gth2Payp4og&bvm=bv.49784469,d.aWc

You will find in the story of the succession to Joseph Smith, Jr. that Rigdonites, Strangites and others were not "off-shoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

What do they have in common? They all shared the same belief. The Doctrine and Covenants is an expression of that belief. You will find that to be true in the document at the link above.

By the way it does not say anything about the Doctrine and Covenants and any bodies belief. Try to separate "Mormonism" from the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smite, Jr. is its primary author. The author of the document link to above presents an attitude from the Mormon population toward Joseph Smith, that more or less continues today.

Just to clarify, I dont have an opinion on your view because I dont understand your view yet. Meaning, Im trying to get at the core of what you are claiming. If you think I am trying to trap you with my questions I promise you that I am not.

Regards,

Finrock

[Just_A_Guy]

Just_A_Guy

And Brigham Young was not involved?

Irrelevant. Your statement that "Rigdonites, Strangites, and others were not 'off-shoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'" only holds water if you believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is itself merely one "off-shoot" of Joseph Smith's restorationist movement among many, rather than the sole lawful and divinely-approved heir to that legacy.

Do you believe that?

[Speakzeasy]

Just_A_Guy,

You really need to go back and read that post.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/54789-sealed-plates-2.html#post763457

I explained that they have a common understanding, a common belief in Joseph Smith.

My concern is not the division of the church by anyone person or group of people. I could careless about what they thought their capacity in the Church leadership was or could have been. They all had one thing in common - their beliefs in Mormonism originated with Joseph Smith.

Where does the Doctrine and Covenants originate: Joseph Smith.

[Speakzeasy]

Finrock,

If you think I am trying to trap you with my questions I promise you that I am not.

ok. Sorry about sounding defensive. I appreciate you be up front with me.

A Smithite Mormon, my view, is simply one who places more value on the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr. than the Bible and/or Book of Mormon.

I hope that gives some resolve to the question. I do not mean this in bad way. It just stands out really well among most members of the Church. It was not stated to be taken personal by anyone individual. Nor is it directed at anyone individual.