Doctrine clarification

[Bini]

I didn't want to further hijack the Ariel Castro Found Dead thread but I was left contemplating some things that I'd like clarification on. It was speculated out loud that Castro may not be able to repent or be forgiven for his heinous sins. Then this quote was shared:

D&C 132

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

Am I understanding this correctly? Because Castro has not accepted the gospel nor did he accept certain covenants, that he is able to repent and be forgiven for the sin of murder. Now my second question, if you have accepted the gospel and certain covenants then commit murder, are you no longer able to repent or be forgiven because you are held to a higher standard? And lastly, if the answer is YES, does this apply to other sins making then unpardonable - like infidelity - a sin rampant not only outside the Church but many temple endowed members have experienced.

[mnn727]

Am I understanding this correctly? Because Castro has not accepted the gospel nor did he accept certain covenants, that he is able to repent and be forgiven for the sin of murder.

Correct

Now my second question, if you have accepted the gospel and certain covenants then commit murder, are you no longer able to repent or be forgiven because you are held to a higher standard?

I don't think you can come back from murder (actual murder not manslaughter or accidental death) if you have made and understand Covenants, but will have to leave final judgement to God.

[Bini]

Correct

I don't think you can come back from murder (actual murder not manslaughter or accidental death) if you have made and understand Covenants, but will have to leave final judgement to God.

I don't foresee myself committing murder but it freaks me out that for those who have accepted the gospel and have taken on covenants might not be able to repent or be forgiven of them. That's a scary thought.

Does anyone know if fidelity also applies? That seems to be a more common sin in general. Is that forgivable if you have accepted the gospel and certain covenants? I would think that enriching a marriage and keeping your vows are of the utmost importance, especially since that is what makes the foundation for everlasting families in the eternities..

[SpiritDragon]

Great questions Bini!

The only sin that is absolutely unforgivable is denying the holy ghost. I have actually often pondered the very scripture you have posted concerning this and wondered if murder is required to fully deny the holy ghost. To me the wording suggests that denying the holy ghost is very intentional and sealed with innocent blood.

As for your main questions --> will Castro have the opportunity to repent? Yes, but the extent of his repentance is questionable as the the same spirit that existed in his earthly body is the same spirit entering into the eternities. He will have the same appetites and passions but no physical form with which to perform them... or forsake them. We are taught that repentance outside of our probationary state (mortality) is more difficult.

As for those who have entered into covenants being held to higher standards the answer is a resounding yes. Where much is given much is required. However, this does not of necessity make sins unpardonable. It does however increase the accountability and therefore will require a greater price for forgiveness.

Alma 39-42 and Doctrine and Covenants Section 19:10-20 are great resources to learn a bit more.

[SpiritDragon]

I don't foresee myself committing murder but it freaks me out that for those who have accepted the gospel and have taken on covenants might not be able to repent or be forgiven of them. That's a scary thought.

Does anyone know if fidelity also applies? That seems to be a more common sin in general. Is that forgivable if you have accepted the gospel and certain covenants? I would think that enriching a marriage and keeping your vows are of the utmost importance, especially since that is what makes the foundation for everlasting families in the eternities..

Alma 39:6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.

Other than denying the Holy Ghost all can be forgiven. It just isn't easy. It is worth the effort.

[ElectofGod]

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/22984-unforgivable-sin.html

For information on how to commit the unpardonable sin.

[SpiritDragon]

I guess I should have included vs 5 as well for ease of seeing that chastity ranks right behind murder and denying the holy ghost in severity.

[mrmarklin]

Not sure any of you are correct:

D&C 42:18

And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills* shall not* have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

See also V. 19.

[MarginOfError]

I do not believe that there exists any sin for which a person absolutely cannot receive forgiveness.

I do accept that there are some sins for which the Savior may choose not to grant forgiveness. Such forgiveness is His and His alone, and he is free to give or withhold at His own discretion.

The scriptures do speak of some sins that He, apparently, has already stated he is not leaving open to the gift of repentance. Denying the Holy Ghost is at the top of this list. What it takes to deny the Holy Ghost is a matter that can be discussed, but I don't think there is any formal, objective, and unquestionable definition of it.

Murder often comes up in the discussion as well. In different places in the scriptures, we get different messages--some places say killing is unforgivable, period; others say that killing after certain covenants is unforgivable. Then when you throw in mental illness, or other extenuating circumstances, it becomes harder and harder to know where the line is truly drawn.

Which is why I'm happy to throw my hands up, give up on trying to understand, and trust that Christ will take into account about 140 more variables when rendering judgment than I am able to with my pathetic brain.

The only thing I'm sure of is this: having descended below all things, forgiveness for any and all sins is a gift Christ has authority to give--and he is free to give or withhold as He chooses.

[mrmarklin]

MoE

Of course there can be extenuating circumstances such as mental illness etc etc. and God can forgive whom He pleases, but my understanding of cold blooded murder (call it murder 1) is very akin to denying the Holy Ghost. Note the above scripture in Alma.

In Utah, firing squad was used as capital punishment for those who wanted it. The idea being that although Christ could not atone for a murder, the murderer had possiblility of atoning by having his own blood shed. This is a doctrine I believe is known as blood atonement. See this reference. Blood atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[MarginOfError]

Perhaps I could clarify my point by stating that the "unforgivable sins" are not inherently unforgivable. They are unforgivable because Christ has stated his hesitance to forgive them.

In other words, I think the Blood Atonement is a false teaching that assumed that Christ was incapable of forgiving certain sins. I feel this goes against the idea of the 'infinite atonement' and have never taken it seriously.

[AngelMarvel]

I think if a person feels there is no hope then what's the use. Kill and kill again...who cares cause you are going to hell anyway. I do not believe that's what the atonement is all about. I think as it states in D&C is correct.

“I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.” [D&C 64:10.] 3

Why would we do Temple work for the dead if there was no hope for some of them. I am sure Temple work has been done for many of those that have murdered.

SpiritDragon I really like the answers you give throughout these forums. You seem to be right on top of it. Thank you!

[rameumptom]

He can repent, but that does not guarantee him salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. It means he will be rescued from hell in Spirit Prison and Outer Darkness. The salvation he may receive could be in any of the kingdoms of glory, if he does sincerely repent. There are a lot of factors we do not know: did he have mental illness? was he abused/raped as a child? was he ever taught right from wrong? did he have some brain issue that affected his conscience?

I thank God that I do not have to judge mankind!

[rameumptom]

As I understand it, Denying the Holy Ghost requires a person to love darkness more than light. As with Cain, who covenanted with Satan, and refused to listen to or follow God's voice, and rejoiced in killing his brother, it takes an awful lot to deny the Holy Ghost.

Being a son of Perdition seems to be a rare event so far in this world. We only know of one person for certain: Cain. Even Judas Iscariot probably did not qualify, because he had not received the Holy Ghost, as did the other apostles on the day of Pentecost. Also, he sought to repent of his murder, as well. These are not symptomatic of a son of Perdition.

Killing an innocent means more than just committing murder. A person who kills his wife's lover in a jealous rage is not meeting the requirements for Son of Perdition. Now that person also may not merit Celestial glory, but that is another thing, and dependent upon the Lord's judgment.

A person must have the temple covenant, have felt the strong witness of the Holy Ghost, and then turn completely away from God and seal that turning with murder. He must rejoice in his wickedness.

In Spirit Prison, the suffering is often enough to cause spirits to repent of their sins and be rescued through Christ's atonement (see Alma 36). Yet, sons of Perdition are so far gone down the path of evil, they would not be pained by their sins, but gloat in them. They cannot receive a kingdom of glory, because they refuse to receive a kingdom of glory. They actually want a kingdom with no glory from God. And that is what they receive.

[Magen_Avot]

This has been an interesting read. D&C 132:26, 27 has often left me wondering if I understand it. It abhors me to even consider that committing all manner of blasphemies after having received the new and everlasting covenant and that in the end all will be well.

I recall hearing, or reading that King David would Inherit the middle degree of the Celestial Kingdom after repenting of his part in Uriah's murder, which was to cover his sin of adultry. I'm not sure where though.

But I think, in part, this discussion has been about "culpability".

In that "culpability" considers "blameworthiness", I've always considerded it as being worthy of the punishment.

The four degrees are:

purposely

knowingly

recklessly

negligently

Rameumptom mentioned, "to love darkness more than light" and I tend to think that this must play a big part in God's judgment.

I saw some made for tv movie (I think) once where a 'perp' had kidnapped a series of women. He said something that chilled me to the bone. He described his interaction with one victim as... "delicious". We don't have cable or satilite tv anymore, but I still wish I could un-hear that. On occasion such as the reason for this discussion, I feel ill because of it.

I can't help but feel that Castro is fully culpable, and relieved I havn't been touched by this, because I need a loving God's forgiveness and I imagine it'd be so difficult to forgive in this case.

May those women be healed in Christ's love.

[Traveler]

What I am about to post is my opinion. Not sure how that plays with doctrine - but it is my understanding and interpretation of doctrine.

Point #1. I do not believe that anyone that desires to be Celestial will be withheld. I believe the atonement is the means to be forgiven for all that desire to be forgiven.

Point #2. I do not believe that the so called severity of sin really makes any difference - what-so-ever. If a person desires to indulge in even a very minor sin rather than live by Celestial Law and Covenant - I believe their desire will be granted.

Point #3. I believe that in this mortal existence we live by faith and not by knowledge. That no one understands or knows the result of sin only that we understand by faith. Therefore, when we come to know sin an evil there is means to repent if we so desire. I believe this is according to the Father's "Plan of happiness" or "Plan of Salvation".

Point #4. Because of point #3 we are told not to judge others while we are experiencing mortality. The scriptures tell us that we cannot see the heart of other and know the desire of their heart. Therefore, regardless of what someone may seem to desire to us - it is possible that they are beguiled and not actually making a choice according to their will or agency. In essence until we know the truth according to the power of the Holy Ghost - we cannot make a choice based in such truth. It is only when in the full light of truth that when we make our desires manifested that we are able to choose - with no need to ever change such a choice - other wise if it was possible to change our choice - we really did not make the choice according to our will.

The Traveler

Edited September 8, 2013 by Traveler

[SpiritDragon]

In agreement with travelers remarks I believe that agency is the primary difference between God's plan and Satan's plan. It seems consistent that agency will be the deciding factor in our eternal inheritance. We will choose what laws we wish to abide by in the eternities, but every opportunity will be granted for us to change our hearts and become converted to Christ and abide by celestial law. This is why ultimately it is a plan of happiness because in essence everyone gets what they want... or at least what they choose.

As for severity of sin not mattering I have a bit of a different take. I agree that no impurity no matter how small will be allowed in the Celestial Kingdom. But I believe that no mention of severity of sin would exist if it didn't matter. Where it matters is in the price of forgiveness. Even here in mortality I suffer more when trying to repent of more severe sins than more minor ones. Those that do not turn their sins over to the atoning power of Christ will suffer the consequences themselves. The suffering or punishment will fit the crime. However, ultimately it is up to them to choose to take the steps required for forgiveness.

None of us know just what Castro will choose, and thus his final destination will always be speculation until he sits at the judgment bar with Christ.