Understanding men

[Leah]

Understood... lets see if we can nail down why this is confusing...

The man does not feel desired sexually

The woman when she desires the man sexually goes and folds his laundry (or some other task)

And confusion reins

That would confuse me...a woman.

I see folding his laundry and other such tasks as expressions of love, yes, (and also just the plain old need of getting chores done), but when I desired my man sexually.....I would express that in a sexual manner.

And, no, that doesn't mean that if I am not expressing that 24/7, that I rarely desire him sexually. It just means life and marriage are full of other things to deal with, as well.

[Misshalfway]

This post reminds of David Schnarch's series of articles called "sex always consists of leftovers." In this version, the man is so "emotionally fused" with his wife, that, when she does not express sexual desire in the same way he does or when she desires something sexually that he doesn't, he is thrown out of emotional equilibrium, and feels like something must be wrong (either with himself or with his wife). The idea being that each should become "differentiated" enough that there sense of emotional balance is not dependent on how the other experiences sex. He needs to be strong enough to accept that his wife probably does not experience sexual desire in the same way that he does or that she just doesn't want to do certain things. Neither is "wrong" or "right" in their desires or the way they experience their sexuality. Once they are both on a solid enough footing to accept their differences, then they can work together to explore their sexuality together -- in what ways do they each need to "grow" sexually to become a stronger couple.

(I probably didn't explain that very well. I often find Dr. Schnarch's ideas intriguing, but I don't know that I always understand them or see exactly how they apply).

Thank you, MR. Shorty! You have brought me back to myself. (if that makes sense.) I read David Schnarch a few years ago. His books line my shelves. But I think I need to go read them again. I think you are onto the answer I've been looking for. It feels so right that what I'm seeing and hearing is this triggering of "something must be wrong with me". YES! I see the fear and feel unsatisfied with the demands for more erotic behavior. What I need to do is work on the differentiation!

I'm with you too that Schnarch is some deep water. :) I love what I read but I'm not sure I know yet how to translate it all into stuff that clients can apply.

Thank you again!

[estradling75]

That would confuse me...a woman.

Indeed but it doesn't make it wrong... Just a different way of expressing it then expected. She is on a different page... then he is and they both need to get on the same page (or at the least look over each other shoulder once in awhile to understand what the other means)

[MarginOfError]

Does she have to become something more sexually exaggerated in order to convince the man he is sexually desirable? I don't feel comfortable asking a woman to engage in sexual behavior she isn't comfortable with to solve the problem.

Nor should you. I suspect that in these cases, what is happening is that the two parties aren't communicating desires or expectations for fear of the idea being rejected (and possibly causing some form of the 'he/she wants me to do what?' syndrome). The couples need to learn to talk through these. And that isn't easy. Sometimes it takes ground rules. My spouse and I have something of an unspoken rule (maybe it was spoken somewhere) that we should be free to say what it is we want without fear of penalty. While we believe in that rule, it is harder in practice than in theory. There were things we each said we weren't comfortable with when we first got married, but now, several years later, we do some of those things and enjoy them. There are still things we aren't comfortable with, and there are some things my one of us has wanted to do that the other wasn't willing to do. But in a few years, we'll probably feel differently still.

Sexual attitudes and desires are not static. They change over time, and so they have to be discussed over time. Whatever my spouse said she enjoyed 5 years ago I can't assume she still enjoys, nor can I assume she's still opposed to the same things she was 5 years ago. Is it possible that some of your couples talked about it once and then closed to book on the matter?

[Misshalfway]

Understood... lets see if we can nail down why this is confusing...

The man does not feel desired sexually

The woman when she desires the man sexually goes and folds his laundry (or some other task)

And confusion reins

You've outlined the "confusion" well.

The part of the pattern you might be missing is what Leah mentioned. What happens when she folds the shirts AND buys a new teddy AND tells him he is handsome and sexy and he still walks away feeling unwanted sexually. And when asked wishes she were more "orgasmic" in her expressions of interest.

My guess is that he needs to see evidence that his prowess his "worked". And that perhaps its too hard for him to access and acknowledge insecurity or fear he has about his appeal to a woman sexually. It don't know men really feel about talking about this. But if they could and if their women could sort of rescue them or sooth them, she wouldn't need to compromise behaviorally. At least that is the theory....

Can you help me understand what it is like for a man when these additional parts are factored in?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

Indeed but it doesn't make it wrong... Just a different way of expressing it then expected. She is on a different page... then he is and they both need to get on the same page (or at the least look over each other shoulder once in awhile to understand what the other means)

Thank you for this.

In general, I think couples do pretty well getting to this place. It's what happens next that is problematic. They assume that "getting on the same page" means agreeing on some compromise on some behavioral agreement. Sometimes that means the couple agrees and hides their frustrations just to make peace. OR they end up in some frustrating impasse over sexual behavior.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Misshalfway

[MarginOfError]

You've outlined the "confusion" well.

The part of the pattern you might be missing is what Leah mentioned. What happens when she folds the shirts AND buys a new teddy AND tells him he is handsome and sexy and he still walks away feeling unwanted sexually. And when asked wishes she were more "orgasmic" in her expressions of interest.

My guess is that he needs to see evidence that his prowess his "worked".

Can you help me understand what it is like for a man when these additional parts are factored in?

If this is the case, then I would argue that the man is a selfish lover. He's upset because she's not communicating her pleasure in the way he wants her to communicate, where he should be spending more time learning to read the communications that are already there.

What's more, if he's viewing sex through the lens of producing evidence that his prowess has worked, he needs to be reminded that sex isn't about his ego; it's about building a stronger relationship through emotional intimacy and physical pleasure. His only responsibilities in sexual relationships are to 1) do his part to make sure both he and she feel secure, and 2) do his part to make sure both he and she enjoy themselves.

At the same time, these same rules apply to the woman. If she is going to lie completely still in bed, stifling every sound, facial expression, or body movement, she might need to loosen up a bit and send some signal. Intra-coital communication is every bit as important as the pre- and post-coital communication.

[estradling75]

You've outlined the "confusion" well.

The part of the pattern you might be missing is what Leah mentioned. What happens when she folds the shirts AND buys a new teddy AND tells him he is handsome and sexy and he still walks away feeling unwanted sexually. And when asked wishes she were more "orgasmic" in her expressions of interest.

My guess is that he needs to see evidence that his prowess his "worked".

Can you help me understand what it is like for a man when these additional parts are factored in?

That gets tougher because it involves the mindset of a guy I don't know and can only guess..

I am with you in thinking that should be enough though.

If I were to guess I would say the guy at some level doesn't feel like he is good enough... (Self esteem issues??) and only by acting like a 'cheerleader' can she reach past that and convince him that he is good enough..

Thus she doesn't really want him (because he is not good enough) until she is over the top about expressing it (Getting pass his block)

But that is just a guess...

[Misshalfway]

Nor should you. I suspect that in these cases, what is happening is that the two parties aren't communicating desires or expectations for fear of the idea being rejected (and possibly causing some form of the 'he/she wants me to do what?' syndrome). The couples need to learn to talk through these. And that isn't easy. Sometimes it takes ground rules. My spouse and I have something of an unspoken rule (maybe it was spoken somewhere) that we should be free to say what it is we want without fear of penalty. While we believe in that rule, it is harder in practice than in theory. There were things we each said we weren't comfortable with when we first got married, but now, several years later, we do some of those things and enjoy them. There are still things we aren't comfortable with, and there are some things my one of us has wanted to do that the other wasn't willing to do. But in a few years, we'll probably feel differently still.

Sexual attitudes and desires are not static. They change over time, and so they have to be discussed over time. Whatever my spouse said she enjoyed 5 years ago I can't assume she still enjoys, nor can I assume she's still opposed to the same things she was 5 years ago. Is it possible that some of your couples talked about it once and then closed to book on the matter?

I think what you are describing is when the negotiations and "communicating" works. What you describe is a process of listening and compromising. And retaining the long view so you keep things in perspective. Which is all wonderful. I would only add what I said in another post. That couples do fairly well and negotiating. But just coming to a meeting of the minds often results in frustration because deeper unmet needs are not expressed or addressed.

I'm obviously talking away from my original questions. I guess just expressing some observations from what I see and what the scientific research says about the efficacy of behavioral approaches. It's a digression. I apologize.

[Misshalfway]

That gets tougher because it involves the mindset of a guy I don't know and can only guess..

I am with you in thinking that should be enough though.

If I were to guess I would say the guy at some level doesn't feel like he is good enough... (Self esteem issues??) and only by acting like a 'cheerleader' can she reach past that and convince him that he is good enough..

Thus she doesn't really want him (because he is not good enough) until she is over the top about expressing it (Getting pass his block)

But that is just a guess...

So....outside of therapy land, what makes men feel the most comfortable in talking about this fear with the women they love? I know men often feel criticized and shamed the most from the women in their lives. Brene Brown talks about this a lot in her work on shame.

In the case of my bosses...calling them jerkheads is the easy thing. Not drifting into my yucky pleasing behaviors is my work and I've got a hold of that. Finding the way of affirming the man ( either professionally or privately) without losing self, that seems to be more elusive. I'd love to hear men ( and women) comment on these difficult dynamics.

[Misshalfway]

That gets tougher because it involves the mindset of a guy I don't know and can only guess..

I am with you in thinking that should be enough though.

If I were to guess I would say the guy at some level doesn't feel like he is good enough... (Self esteem issues??) and only by acting like a 'cheerleader' can she reach past that and convince him that he is good enough..

Thus she doesn't really want him (because he is not good enough) until she is over the top about expressing it (Getting pass his block)

But that is just a guess...

So.. maybe what you are saying is that the "need" I see in therapy isn't a universal need amongst all men. That healthy men don't need their woman to "perform". That it's just some individual manifestation of insecurity I'd need to address with the person. Yes?

[classylady]

I've read this thread to my husband. He feels that some men want other men to be envious of them. They want to be proud of their spouse. They want other men to be envious of their sex life. That doesn't necessarily relate to the original post. Just a comment he had. But, he hears talk from other men and how they're not getting "any" from their wives, and he can feel satisfied and grateful within his mind, without boasting.

In the past I've had to insist that my husband talk to me. He seems to be uncomfortable with talking about his emotions. I do know that if I'm not eagerly participating in our physical relationship he doesn't feel loved. It's not enough that he initiate sex and that it's happening on a regular basis. Yes, that's nice, but not enough. Not, only that, he wants me to flirt as Eowyn mentioned--physical ways that show that I want him.

I read a blog on the internet about what husbands wished their wives knew about sex (Christian based blog: MissionWife). In it, the poster mentioned that for men sex is not an option. It's an informative read: 10 things husbands wished their wives knew about sex, but doesn't know quite how to tell her.

"Sex is not optional in his mind - To a husband, sex is about right up there on the list with eating and breathing. Can he survive without it? Yes, but it’s not fun at all. Sex is to the man, what talking/communication is to the woman. If you would ask several wives if it would be ok if their husband didn’t listen or communicate with them for weeks at a time – well, you get the idea. Frequent sex = happy, attentive, listening, cuddling, caring, talking husband."

Edited September 18, 2013 by classylady

[Misshalfway]

I've read this thread to my husband. He feels that a some men want other men to be envious of them. They want to be proud of our spouse. They want other men to be envious of their sex life. That doesn't necessarily relate to the original post. Just a comment he had. But, he hears talk from other men and how they're not getting "any" from their wives, and he can feel satisfied and grateful within his mind, without boasting.

In the past I've had to insist that my husband talk to me. He seems to be uncomfortable with talking about his emotions. I do know that if I'm not eagerly participating in our physical relationship he doesn't feel loved. It's not enough that he initiate sex and that it's happening on a regular basis. Yes, that's nice, but not enough. Not, only that, he wants me to flirt as Eowyn mentioned--physical ways that show that I want him.

I read a blog on the internet about what husbands wished their wives knew about sex (Christian based blog: MissionWife). In it, the poster mentioned that for men sex is not an option. It's an informative read: 10 things husbands wished their wives knew about sex, but doesn't know quite how to tell her.

"Sex is not optional in his mind - To a husband, sex is about right up there on the list with eating and breathing. Can he survive without it? Yes, but it’s not fun at all. Sex is to the man, what talking/communication is to the woman. If you would ask several wives if it would be ok if their husband didn’t listen or communicate with them for weeks at a time – well, you get the idea. Frequent sex = happy, attentive, listening, cuddling, caring, talking husband."

Thank your husband for his contributions! I really appreciate it.

And thank you for your comments and comparisons. I think it hits on the universal needs I think most men are asking for. Stuff that is not pathology. But they, like you said, find it hard to talk about. I think I am getting closer to understanding.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

If this is the case, then I would argue that the man is a selfish lover. He's upset because she's not communicating her pleasure in the way he wants her to communicate, where he should be spending more time learning to read the communications that are already there.

What's more, if he's viewing sex through the lens of producing evidence that his prowess has worked, he needs to be reminded that sex isn't about his ego; it's about building a stronger relationship through emotional intimacy and physical pleasure. His only responsibilities in sexual relationships are to 1) do his part to make sure both he and she feel secure, and 2) do his part to make sure both he and she enjoy themselves.

At the same time, these same rules apply to the woman. If she is going to lie completely still in bed, stifling every sound, facial expression, or body movement, she might need to loosen up a bit and send some signal. Intra-coital communication is every bit as important as the pre- and post-coital communication.

This is beautiful. Love it! It resonates with how I feel in general.

It's interesting in therapy. I'll direct the man to this in one way or another highlighting the needs for emotional intercourse as well as sexual intercourse or how one enhances the other. The reactions I get are often the same. "Therapy is always slanted towards the needs of the woman." It makes me feel I'm not understanding the man or not communicating in a way that the man understands. I'm sure that in some cases the man just doesn't want to let go of his selfishness and would rather demand or blame instead.

Thank you for helping my confusion.

[estradling75]

So.. maybe what you are saying is that the "need" I see in therapy isn't a universal need amongst all men. That healthy men don't need their woman to "perform". That it's just some individual manifestation of insecurity I'd need to address with the person. Yes?

I would say the the need is universal (aka to feel good enough or sex or whatever) but how the expresses itself an how intense can be highly variable from person to person. As for if it is healthy or not that depends on the relationship... Put a similar guy in a relationship with a woman who is just more of a 'performer' and they might have no problems at all (More likely they will just have problems in a different area)

In the case presented it is a problem... so effort needs to be made to help them finding common ground. Generally that means working through the issues and compromising

[beefche]

This is beautiful. Love it! It resonates with how I feel in general.

It's interesting in therapy. I'll direct the man to this in one way or another highlighting the needs for emotional intercourse as well as sexual intercourse or how one enhances the other. The reactions I get are often the same. "Therapy is always slanted towards the needs of the woman." It makes me feel I'm not understanding the man or not communicating in a way that the man understands. I'm sure that in some cases the man just doesn't want to let go of his selfishness and would rather demand or blame instead.

Thank you for helping my confusion.

Are the men just not understanding that how he wants her communication may not be how she communicates? In other words, if he feels wanted sexually when she wears teddies but she thought that just folding laundry shows him she feels he is sexy, then does he not understand that he needs to tell her what makes him feel wanted? And do the women understand that to meet his needs they need to understand what he wants/how he communicates and then feed that (I'm not saying they need to change their colors, but certainly they can attempt to meet his needs more).

I was wondering if the women have that underlining "good girl syndrome" issue going on and feels that they are breaking the LoC or their ideas on what a righteous woman is if they do something more than endure sex. I've heard that some women can't get past their issues to wear lingerie or talk sexy or grope their husbands or whatever. If that's the case, then it is a fine line for the woman.

I guess I'm finding it difficult to understand why men and women don't understand that communication is the basis for EVERYTHING.

[MrShorty]

"Therapy is always slanted towards the needs of the woman." It makes me feel I'm not understanding the man or not communicating in a way that the man understands. I'm sure that in some cases the man just doesn't want to let go of his selfishness and would rather demand or blame instead.

As I have read about marriage and sex within marriage, I find a lot of "sex begins in the kitchen" and "sex is a barometer for the rest of the marriage" and "women need to feel loved to want sex" and "lack of sex in a marriage is not the real problem, lack of sex is a symptom of something else" and the like. A lot of it I agree with, but so often what I "hear/perceive" (and perception is 9/10's of reality) in these kind of messages is something along the lines of "someday when you are a perfect husband, she will condescend to have sex with you." I know that is not the message that is intended, but when a man is already feeling defensive (like he often is in therapy, since it seems that wives are usually the ones initiating therapy), it is easy to perceive these kinds of messages.

[Just_A_Guy]

This is beautiful. Love it! It resonates with how I feel in general.

It's interesting in therapy. I'll direct the man to this in one way or another highlighting the needs for emotional intercourse as well as sexual intercourse or how one enhances the other. The reactions I get are often the same. "Therapy is always slanted towards the needs of the woman." It makes me feel I'm not understanding the man or not communicating in a way that the man understands. I'm sure that in some cases the man just doesn't want to let go of his selfishness and would rather demand or blame instead.

Thank you for helping my confusion.

Precisely. Suggesting that a male communicate--even when he doesn't want to--is, I daresay, standard counseling practice. Suggesting that a female engage in sexual intercourse--even when she doesn't want to--well, that's something else entirely. (And, I hasten to add, for good reason.) Your clients complain of a double-standard because, quite frankly, there is a double-standard.

The bottom line is that men have traditionally relied on certain indicia to gauge the health of the relationship. Women have traditionally relied on other indicia. The popular culture now arguably holds that women were right all along, and men were wrong. As a male, if you honestly need sex to feel like you have a good relationship with your wife, and you're told you're not supposed to need sex (or even say that you do)--what do you do with that?

Unfortunately, many males seem to be choosing to retreat.

[Dravin]

Dravin...

I couple the two because that is how it's described to me by my clients. This is the content of the way they express their concerns. He says, "She doesn't love me. She doesn't show me she loves me." She said, "But I do. I fold your shirts and make you dinners and comfort you when you've had a bad day. " He says, "Yes, but that's not enough. I need you to want me sexually."

Sounds like the woman is conflating the two and the man is being unspecific, though later clarifying. Though that might just be your representation of the conversation and not the reality of what you are experiencing.

What I don't understand is the need for her "desire" to appear more erotic than she is comfortable expressing.

Is his need that her desire appear more erotic than she is comfortable with? Or is his need that her desire appear erotic in some way and she is uncomfortable with that level? They aren't the same thing, the former ties in her discomfort into his need, for the latter it is it independent. That is to say in the latter if she became comfortable with X he'd not then need X+1.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Dravin

[Misshalfway]

Are the men just not understanding that how he wants her communication may not be how she communicates? In other words, if he feels wanted sexually when she wears teddies but she thought that just folding laundry shows him she feels he is sexy, then does he not understand that he needs to tell her what makes him feel wanted? And do the women understand that to meet his needs they need to understand what he wants/how he communicates and then feed that (I'm not saying they need to change their colors, but certainly they can attempt to meet his needs more).

I was wondering if the women have that underlining "good girl syndrome" issue going on and feels that they are breaking the LoC or their ideas on what a righteous woman is if they do something more than endure sex. I've heard that some women can't get past their issues to wear lingerie or talk sexy or grope their husbands or whatever. If that's the case, then it is a fine line for the woman.

I guess I'm finding it difficult to understand why men and women don't understand that communication is the basis for EVERYTHING.

Well, we've been taught for a lot of years that communication is everything in marriage. And I don't disagree, necessarily. But I do think that this dogma is code for a negotiation style interchange where each party outlines their wants and needs and the expectation is that somehow if we talk about it, we will magically bond with each other. And the reality is that negotiation, while good and essential to problem solving efforts, its not the basis for deep bonding and rewarding intimate connection. At least that's not what the lastest research is saying. And I think I'm seeing evidence of that in my practice. Couples actually are trying incredibly hard to be what their spouses want. I have both men and women list all their really awesome efforts. And they still end up feeling disconnected, unseen, and wondering why they aren't bonding.

I guess I'm making the case that communication is a great component of bonding process. But it's not everything. Some couples that are very bonded really don't communicate that much and they do very well together.

[Dravin]

Do men get confused if they don't see the woman's "interest" manifest in orgasmic ways?

A need to feel wanted could be filled with something as simple as, "You are a hunka burning man. *wink*" That's not orgasmic, that not pornographic, that's not even erotic by most connotative definitions of the term. I realize the men you may be talking with may be talking about their need requiring orgamsmic or pornographic demonstrations. The thing is you're asking men here about their mindsets on the issues. I think bringing that over has a potential to poison the conversation. It makes me reluctant to talk if I say something like, "I want my wife to demonstrate her desire." and I have to worry that it will be interpreted as, "I want her to give a porn star a run for her money in salaciousness." Even being asked that in question form has a certain, "Why do you beat your wife?" dampening quality to it.

Needless to say, that I may understand the need to be desired doesn't mean I understand all extents and expressions of that need.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Dravin

[Misshalfway]

As I have read about marriage and sex within marriage, I find a lot of "sex begins in the kitchen" and "sex is a barometer for the rest of the marriage" and "women need to feel loved to want sex" and "lack of sex in a marriage is not the real problem, lack of sex is a symptom of something else" and the like. A lot of it I agree with, but so often what I "hear/perceive" (and perception is 9/10's of reality) in these kind of messages is something along the lines of "someday when you are a perfect husband, she will condescend to have sex with you." I know that is not the message that is intended, but when a man is already feeling defensive (like he often is in therapy, since it seems that wives are usually the ones initiating therapy), it is easy to perceive these kinds of messages.

It's interesting. I heard one just like this a couple of days ago. He has been cleaning and helping with the kids. He's been so good at it wife is feeling a little out done. :) He is doing this out of the best of intentions hoping that it will open his wife to having sex. His motivations are explicit. She on the other hand feels it's a quid pro quo and feels its a transaction she is obligated to complete. This shuts her down emotionally. She doesn't see this as foreplay the way he does. She fears that he'll punish her or criticize her for not "putting out" or not being loving, etc etc. So she gives in and has the sex but her heart isn't in it. And of course he hates that.

I guess what I'm saying is that I agree that this dogma doesn't work all by itself.

in these kind of messages is something along the lines of "someday when you are a perfect husband, she will condescend to have sex with you." I know that is not the message that is intended, but when a man is already feeling defensive (like he often is in therapy, since it seems that wives are usually the ones initiating therapy), it is easy to perceive these kinds of messages.

I'm really interested in what you said here. This seems consistent with cases I've worked on. And sometimes its true. Wife IS in fact withholding until she has a perfect husband. Now....this often happens when husband has acted out with an affair or porn. The perfection seeking is usually about protection or prevention of pain. Obviously there could be a lot going on in situations like this when infidelity isn't happening too.

What I'm interested in is understanding men more so that the directives are more balanced to factor in the ways, needs, and processes of men. I don't want it to be such a contest where the female way always wins. And I'd like to make sure my practice is a man-friendly zone. And I'd like to learn how to create mutual victories. I hate it that men get the shaft in therapy. Yuck!

(I guess I'm kind of commenting on Just A Guy's post as well.

[Windseeker]

I thought I'd throw this in there. I heard an interview with Dennis Prager and Alison Armstrong and found it the most refreshing, honest discussion I've ever heard about Men, Women differences and expectations.

She has a book out about Understanding men but the reviews aren't that great. Seems like she gets it and knows it so she's not going to give out what she knows for cheap.

Regardless if I was a professional I would at least take a look at it.

The Dennis Prager Store: Dennis and Alison Armstrong (Download)

PAX Programs Incorporated - About Alison Armstrong

[Just_A_Guy]

What I'm interested in is understanding men more so that the directives are more balanced to factor in the ways, needs, and processes of men. I don't want it to be such a contest where the female way always wins. And I'd like to make sure my practice is a man-friendly zone. And I'd like to learn how to create mutual victories. I hate it that men get the shaft in therapy. Yuck!

With regard to the issue of intimacy--frankly, I don't think you can even the odds. I mean, what are you as a counselor going to do--tell the wife she needs to be more "available" to him, and to heck with her own feelings? That's more or less the reason Warren Jeffs is now in jail--accomplice to rape, and all that.

I don't know that you can do much more than say to the wife (in front of the husband) "look, it's a real and valid need; I'm not going to tell you you have to fill it--or how to fill it--but you need to know that if it isn't filled, your marriage isn't going to be healthy and nothing I can do here with you will completely make up for that".

(But then, I'm in the profession of dissolving marriages, not saving them. So, caveat emptor . . . )

[Misshalfway]

Precisely. Suggesting that a male communicate--even when he doesn't want to--is, I daresay, standard counseling practice. Suggesting that a female engage in sexual intercourse--even when she doesn't want to--well, that's something else entirely. (And, I hasten to add, for good reason.) Your clients complain of a double-standard because, quite frankly, there is a double-standard.

The bottom line is that men have traditionally relied on certain indicia to gauge the health of the relationship. Women have traditionally relied on other indicia. The popular culture now arguably holds that women were right all along, and men were wrong. As a male, if you honestly need sex to feel like you have a good relationship with your wife, and you're told you're not supposed to need sex (or even say that you do)--what do you do with that?

Unfortunately, many males seem to be choosing to retreat.

Exactly! What do you do with that? I hate that message that men aren't suppose to need sex and sadly they do feel they get that message in therapy a lot!!! Yuck.

Perhaps I'm a little confused. I do understand that men use sex as a barometer for the relationship. I hear that a lot and feel the importance. I become confused when I see the man conclude that because sex was good that everything else in the relationship is hunky dory and so he retreats. Wife feels kinda used and then abandoned.

I guess I worry that the messages from women are being misinterpreted. I don't know that women fully comprehend where the man is coming from. Clearly we are missing it. Perhaps therapy has missed it too. But I'm struggling to see that emotional nurture isn't as important. And I think that I hear that men want and need a more dynamic interaction that just a sexual one too. So perhaps the sex only barometer does both sides a disservice. What I think to say is that it just can't be true that sex is a man's only need.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Misshalfway