Does this find help Mormons?

[dahlia]

Finds in Israel add weight to theory God “had wife”

Yahoo News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines

[Guest]

Not really in my opinion. LDS doctrine and man's salvation does not hinge on that.

[dahlia]

OK, let me ask again. Mormons believe God has a wife - yes? We use the OT and consider ourselves a continuation of the Judeo-Christian experience - yes? However, most (all?) Christians do not believe that God has a wife. So, does finding ancient artifacts that appear to support the premise that Jews may have included God's wife as a part of their belief system, help support what Mormons say about Heavenly Father?

Be advised, I am not saying we need historical proof of everything we believe. I'm just wondering if Mormons would see this as a positive event that supports their beliefs?

[Dravin]

Do you mean apologetics wise? I doubt it, you might possibility establish the presence of such belief but that doesn't really establish theological correctness. From a mainstream Christian perspective if ancient Israelites believed that God had a wife that doesn't make us right, it just makes the ancient Israelites wrong as well. Heck, I'm Mormon and, admittedly I'm not an expert on the subject, I'm inclined to see it as a case of Israel's idolatry given the way it is presented in the article.

All said though, it is an interesting find.

[bytebear]

"OK, let me ask again. Mormons believe God has a wife - yes?"

No. Logic and scripture and gospel principles (or as the hymn says "reason") lead toward that conclusion, but as with everything before, God could reveal a different truth.

[NeuroTypical]

Be advised, I am not saying we need historical proof of everything we believe. I'm just wondering if Mormons would see this as a positive event that supports their beliefs?

I understand what you're asking. At the end of the day, such things are only as important to people as they allow them to be.

I used to ask church critics a question: "Let's say tomorrow, non-LDS sources discovered the sword of Laban, a massive precolumbian civilization that used horses and had steel swords, burial sites containing remains with "Jewish DNA", and a big city in Guatemala that said "Welcome to Zarahemla" in a language that seems to have been Egyptian at one time, but was reformed somehow. Would you bend your knee, profess Christ as your savior, acknowledge Joseph Smith was a prophet, and get baptized into my church?"

Only about half said yes or maybe. The rest of them continued on with their criticism, totally undaunted by my question.

[GrayBeard]

No. Logic and scripture and gospel principles (or as the hymn says "reason") lead toward that conclusion, but as with everything before, God could reveal a different truth.

How can God reveal a different truth than scripture. I tried to reason out your point but that makes no sense to me. Can you please clarify?

[GrayBeard]

Yes, it is a belief among Mormons, one I share strongly. The evidence for it is revelation given to Eliza Snow and confirmed by the prophet, if I remember correctly.

-

What is this evidence you are talking of a Jewish artifact mentioning God's wife?

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW, this isn't a new revelation. I remember taking a course on the ancient near east prior to 300 BC that discussed various Mesopotamian deities at length, and the textbook talked about Asherah as a consort to the god of the Hebrews. There was even an allegation that the tree motif on the interior walls of the Temple of Solomon were a reference to Asherah.

[Swiper]

There is some great books on the subject. I recommend the "History of God" by Karen Armstrong. The early Canaanites (which the Hebrews originally come from) was polytheistic and worshipped three main gods, El (the high god). Asherah (the mother), and Baal (the son). Later on El transformed to or replaced by Yahweh, a war god. The need for military success made the worship of the war god Yahweh more important to the Hebrews than the worship of Ashera and Baal (both fertility gods). This resulted in a polytheistic society becoming monotheistic.

[Backroads]

I personally find it cool and supportive of my own beliefs. Yet it just seems to support general old goddess religion beliefs.

[Dravin]

How can God reveal a different truth than scripture. I tried to reason out your point but that makes no sense to me. Can you please clarify?

One could use scriptures to reach a reasoned conclusion but said conclusion is not explicitly contained in the scriptures. He said the scriptures lead him to that conclusion, not that scriptures contain or state that God has a wife. So his point is he believes it based on several things but that it is not an explicit and clarified doctrinal point and he admits his conclusions give way to any additional revelation on the subject even if they go contrary to his conclusions.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Dravin

[Finrock]

Good morning dahlia. I hope you've been well! :)

OK, let me ask again. Mormons believe God has a wife - yes? We use the OT and consider ourselves a continuation of the Judeo-Christian experience - yes? However, most (all?) Christians do not believe that God has a wife. So, does finding ancient artifacts that appear to support the premise that Jews may have included God's wife as a part of their belief system, help support what Mormons say about Heavenly Father?

Be advised, I am not saying we need historical proof of everything we believe. I'm just wondering if Mormons would see this as a positive event that supports their beliefs?

I say yes.

Regards,

Finrock

[bytebear]

How can God reveal a different truth than scripture. I tried to reason out your point but that makes no sense to me. Can you please clarify?

You'll have to point to the scripture you are referring to. Using an example from the D&C 130:22

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

There is nothing as clear as that regarding Heavenly Mother. Until God reveals the truth in such plainness, we are still only interpreting scripture to fit our prevailing theories on the subject. Do not forget that once the Curse of Cain and Adam/God theories were taught with equal vigor.

[dahlia]

There is nothing as clear as that regarding Heavenly Mother. Until God reveals the truth in such plainness, we are still only interpreting scripture to fit our prevailing theories on the subject. Do not forget that once the Curse of Cain and Adam/God theories were taught with equal vigor.

OK. Maybe I am mistaken in what I understood from my lessons. I thought the Mormon belief was that HF has a wife and that we replicate that relationship with our own marriages, children, etc.

Is this not 'written in stone' Mormon doctrine? Did the missionaries lie?

[bytebear]

OK. Maybe I am mistaken in what I understood from my lessons. I thought the Mormon belief was that HF has a wife and that we replicate that relationship with our own marriages, children, etc.

Is this not 'written in stone' Mormon doctrine? Did the missionaries lie?

I don't think it's debated, but it's not canonized doctrine either. I was always taught growing up that we believe it and understand it to be true, but perhaps it is considered too sacred a belief to be spoken of in specific and concrete terms. Similarly the temple experience is very well defined in scripture, but only when you know where to look and our understanding of the temple experience changes as we grow in the gospel.

That said, there have been beliefs that were so standard to church understanding that there was no debate on them either, and yet, they are fully rejected today. And there have been those who have taken this belief beyond our understanding and have forfeited their church membership because they felt they needed to "clarify" Heavenly Mother's role in church doctrine and practice.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bytebear

[Finrock]

Good morning dahlia. :)

OK. Maybe I am mistaken in what I understood from my lessons. I thought the Mormon belief was that HF has a wife and that we replicate that relationship with our own marriages, children, etc.

Is this not 'written in stone' Mormon doctrine? Did the missionaries lie?

There is a Heavenly Mother. I know this the same as I know anything else in the gospel.

Regards,

Finrock

[Traveler]

How can God reveal a different truth than scripture. I tried to reason out your point but that makes no sense to me. Can you please clarify?

The question of sense is because you are ignorant of scripture. The reason is that context is very important in understanding G-d's revelations. A simple example can be shown in the scriptures themselves. Lets look first at Exodus 20:

13 Thou shalt not kill.

Now lets look at another scripture:

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Even looking at the the context of Numbers 31:17 - if you were to follow that revelation to the word (killing women and children involved in religious worship) you would be in violation of the laws of the USA and would fully suffer the consequences.

The are two parts to this problem. First - how scriptures are interpreted. Second - that G-d throughout history reveals truth outside of all scripture that been recorded up to that particular point in time. As Joseph told Pharaoh - G-d will give revelation in the form of prophesy of things that will come to pass and then G-d will give revelation again when such prophesies are fulfilled.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Finds in Israel add weight to theory God “had wife”

Yahoo News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines

Yes Dahilia - I believe this find does indeed help and assist LDS theology. But not necessarily in ways that translate directly or immediately to more converts - especially among the relatively ignorant religious extreme.

Even with a preponderance of scientific evidence - religious extremists would deny the noon day sun and call it night thinking it is a matter of faith. We see this in discussions of evolution and in some cases astrophysics, particle theory and quantum mechanics.

It is obvious that a honest quest from truth is a way and path followed by the minority - both from revealed scripture and in general in the history of mankind. For what ever reason most must be dragged to new understandings of truth kicking and screaming and even then, as it would seem; only when there is no other option.

The Traveler

[GrayBeard]

Your assumption of my ignorance of scripture is a heck of an assumption, based on your hopefull imagination I presume. Most intelligent people can hold two conflicting ideas in their mind at the same time. That conflict doesn't cause either concept to be false. God does not reveal new truth that causes previous scripture to be false. Additional information and clarification does not falsify existing truth

-

You simplistic example of "thou shalt not kill" is a perfect example. I am prohibited from killing, that is a scriptural truth. The fact that God can command what I may not does not make the command to me false.

[Traveler]

Your assumption of my ignorance of scripture is a heck of an assumption, based on your hopefull imagination I presume. Most intelligent people can hold two conflicting ideas in their mind at the same time. That conflict doesn't cause either concept to be false. God does not reveal new truth that causes previous scripture to be false. Additional information and clarification does not falsify existing truth

-

You simplistic example of "thou shalt not kill" is a perfect example. I am prohibited from killing, that is a scriptural truth. The fact that God can command what I may not does not make the command to me false.

???? In one case G-d revealed that you "shall not" kill. In another example G-d revealed that you shall kill. In response you attempted to justify a truth that transcends scripture is not explicitly included in scripture. Therefor that actual truth is not revealed in scripture but by some other means. And as we both have shown the greater truth can be made to appear contradictory to scripture - This little nugget of truth was at the very center of the disagreement of Jesus with the Scribes and Pharisees. And I would point out that the Scribes and Pharisees were known experts of scripture and were very offended when Jesus pointed out that they really did not know the scriptures.

But let me ask a very simple question - Do you believe that marriage is of G-d? And now a couple of other questions while you are thinking of how you will answer. What does it mean for something to be "of G-d"? And is G-d a hypocrite in that he expects of others? Does he lead by example asking us to follow or does command that which he would never do himself?

The Traveler

[GrayBeard]

???? In one case G-d revealed that you "shall not" kill. In another example G-d revealed that you shall kill. In response you attempted to justify a truth that transcends scripture is not explicitly included in scripture. Therefor that actual truth is not revealed in scripture but by some other means. And as we both have shown the greater truth can be made to appear contradictory to scripture - This little nugget of truth was at the very center of the disagreement of Jesus with the Scribes and Pharisees. And I would point out that the Scribes and Pharisees were known experts of scripture and were very offended when Jesus pointed out that they really did not know the scriptures.

But let me ask a very simple question - Do you believe that marriage is of G-d? And now a couple of other questions while you are thinking of how you will answer. What does it mean for something to be "of G-d"? And is G-d a hypocrite in that he expects of others? Does he lead by example asking us to follow or does command that which he would never do himself?

The Traveler

I learned decades ago that some people simply can't hold two conflicting thoughts in their mind at the same time without needing to invalidate one or the other concepts. I have no interest in entering into a semantical debate with you over what to me is obvious, yet to you seems incomprehensible. God can most certainly forbid me from choosing to kill, yet still reserve the righteous ability to command it when He requires. That's His prerogative, not mine.

-

I have no idea what game you are hoping to begin with your question about marriage, but I don't come to this site for pointless debate. If you want to debate me on Quora I'll indulge you there. This is a moderated site where polite discussion is encouraged. Your style seems intentionally confrontational, and while I don't shy away from such discussions, this site does not encourage such behavior. You can find me there as Joseph Perez. Bring your A game, poor debate skills are usually creamed there.