Can't believe that God isn't eternal

[Lakumi]

And siths and jedis. Yep.

I like the quiet planet of Faeries and others more

[Maureen]

....Jesus Christ did only those things He had seen His father do.

Can someone explain this to me? My understanding is that Heavenly Father progressed to Godhood. He organized the eternal, existing intelligences into his spirit children, where Jesus happened to be his first spirit child. So how is it that Jesus could see his Father progress if he only existed as "intelligence" during his Father's progression? Am I understanding this incorrectly?

M.

[Vort]

Can someone explain this to me? My understanding is that Heavenly Father progressed to Godhood. He organized the eternal, existing intelligences into his spirit children, where Jesus happened to be his first spirit child. So how is it that Jesus could see his Father progress if he only existed as "intelligence" during his Father's progression? Am I understanding this incorrectly?

You are understanding at least two things incorrectly:

1. While there is a great deal of speculation and the feeling among some of it being "settled doctrine", there is in fact no sanctioned LDS teachings that "Heavenly Father progressed to Godhood." This is an inference, not a revealed point. I think it is reasonable to say that we teach as revealed doctrine that "as man is, God once was", but to go from there to your statement is an act of inference, not of ironclad logic.

2. Prophets, including the Lord (yes, he was a prophet, by definition), see all sorts of things by the power of God, past, present, and future. They need not live at the time something occurs to witness its occurrence.

[prisonchaplain]

Now, I'm going to link to you the first Chapter of the Gospel Principles Manual (if you're not attending this class in Sunday School, you might want to check it out) which is all about Heavenly Father - a God in the Godhead:

Gospel Principles Chapter 1: Our Father in Heaven

And here are some excerpts from that chapter:

God is the Supreme and Absolute Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is “the Great Parent of the universe,” and He “looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 39).

Because we are made in His image (see Moses 2:26; 6:9), we know that our bodies are like His body. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God’s body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description.

All good things come from God. Everything that He does is to help His children become like Him. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Start from there, ponder and pray, and then we can add to it.

I was thinking my question might be most useful to folks like Maureen and I, but it may help almost everyone: Is Gospel Principles considered "official church doctrine?" We traffic alot in analysis, understandings, and intepretations here. If want the official word, besides going to the scriptures themselves, is Gospel Principles one of the better official sources?

[Vort]

I was thinking my question might be most useful to folks like Maureen and I, but it may help almost everyone: Is Gospel Principles considered "official church doctrine?" We traffic alot in analysis, understandings, and intepretations here. If want the official word, besides going to the scriptures themselves, is Gospel Principles one of the better official sources?

"Official Church doctrine" is a slippery eel to pin down. According to Brigham Young, LDS doctrine encompasses all truth, including scientific "truths". Thus, one who accepts organic evolution could credibly argue that organic evolution is LDS doctrine. Others maintain that the only "official" LDS doctrine is standard works scripture, as interpreted by our leaders, and signed First Presidency statements. I tend toward this far more restrictive interpretation of "official doctrine". Most Latter-day Saints fall somewhere between these two poles.

I don't know that there really is such a thing as "official doctrine". What we are after is truth, not creedal professions. Truth is taught us by the Spirit. If the "truth" we are taught by the "Spirit" contradicts our leaders' instruction, it is not true and was not given by the Spirit, but by some other spirit. Our leaders, being mortal and fallible, may sometimes teach things that are factually incorrect. This does not bother me. We can be sure they are not going to tell us to kill or rape or otherwise be dishonest or monstrous, so the fact that they e.g. experiment with the length of missionary service is fine by me. I won't apostatize because I only served an 18-month mission instead of a 24-month mission like my older brother.

I would say that Gospel Principles is an excellent resource for understanding LDS teachings. It is written for adults at a low level of understanding of the principles, so although it does not talk down to the reader, it also does not present most doctrinal teachings in any great depth of sophistication or such. And this is a strength; doctrines are best taught in plain, straightforward terms, without the whys and wherefores one typically finds in theological treatises. In that sense, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints utterly lacks a "cohesive theology", something I think constitutes a pillar of strength for the Church. I don't recall Jesus setting up an extensive theology in an attempt to justify his straightforward but revolutionary teachings.

[Durzan]

And siths and jedis. Yep.

Man, Thats George Lucas's reality! Don't go and create it in the afterlife without his permission!

[Guest]

Man, Thats George Lucas's reality! Don't go and create it in the afterlife without his permission!

But then if Lucas and I make it through celestial kingdom, then we can create it together.

[Lakumi]

But then if Lucas and I make it through celestial kingdom, then we can create it together.

don't do that, every couple of years he'll want to add things to it or stick in a racist stereotype

my ideas are my own

[Durzan]

Robert Jordan and JRR Tolkien would have a blast creating their universes! I could see a Lord of the Rings universe being created right now...

I bet Heavenly Father would be doing quite a bit of laughing and/or face palming if those two made it up there.

_______

But seriously...

If I was an author (Which I am aspiring to be), I would totally recreate one of my fantasy worlds...

More as a way to get used to the new abilities and to figure out how everything works, but also just to see how everything would turn out.

I mean, I cannot think how much work went into the current laws of reality. Imagine trying to create a new one, and with a comprehensible magic system to boot! Now that is a challenge...

Eternity would be pretty boring if you had nothing to do...

and creating your own universe would be something to pass the time, help you learn, and prepare for the time when you want to enable your Plan...

__________

Warning... Personal Speculation initiated...

I think that Heavenly Father spent quite a bit of eternity just trying to figure things out. After all, if you have that much power and authority, it would probably take a while to learn how to use it.

Then he probably spent quite a bit of time developing and refining the Plan of Salvation, probably learning from his own Father, and consulting with his brothers and sisters as well, before he even created our spirit bodies.

At that point, He probably was ready to put his plan into action...

_________

Mind = Blown! I can't even imagine how much effort an eternity's of work would cost!

[Lakumi]

I created my own universe too, wrote a book about it, will probably put it together for nanowrimo

there's quotes from it in my signatures from time to time- it's also a religion in some of the other stories I wrote, sometimes cult, sometimes legit... who knows

[Seminarysnoozer]

Robert Jordan and JRR Tolkien would have a blast creating their universes! I could see a Lord of the Rings universe being created right now...

I bet Heavenly Father would be doing quite a bit of laughing and/or face palming if those two made it up there.

_______

But seriously...

If I was an author (Which I am aspiring to be), I would totally recreate one of my fantasy worlds...

More as a way to get used to the new abilities and to figure out how everything works, but also just to see how everything would turn out.

I mean, I cannot think how much work went into the current laws of reality. Imagine trying to create a new one, and with a comprehensible magic system to boot! Now that is a challenge...

Eternity would be pretty boring if you had nothing to do...

and creating your own universe would be something to pass the time, help you learn, and prepare for the time when you want to enable your Plan...

__________

Warning... Personal Speculation initiated...

I think that Heavenly Father spent quite a bit of eternity just trying to figure things out. After all, if you have that much power and authority, it would probably take a while to learn how to use it.

Then he probably spent quite a bit of time developing and refining the Plan of Salvation, probably learning from his own Father, and consulting with his brothers and sisters as well, before he even created our spirit bodies.

At that point, He probably was ready to put his plan into action...

_________

Mind = Blown! I can't even imagine how much effort an eternity's of work would cost!

Nope, things are done as they have always been done. One eternal round. No need to "figure it out". The pathway to Eternal Life is well mapped and planned. If He "learned from His Father" then who's plan was it?

Doing things on one's own, without help, without a Savior is Satan's way. Humility is required to receive Celestial glory and to be like God. Elder Nelson commented yesterday about the reasons behind having dual natures in this life, so that we learn to depend on the Lord.

We have already spent an "eternity" in the presence of our Heavenly Father. We all passed the first estate test as mature spirits.

When a person can rejoice in the success of others, they will never be "bored" and their joy will be endless. This is probably why God's glory is not in the "figuring out" but in the bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This is also why we are told to love our God and secondly love our neighbor as our self. That is required in order to enjoy the success of others.

[Lakumi]

oh I forgot something, the faeries in my book never die (of natural causes, they can only be killed by things like sword and fire) they aren't wholly physical (and don't reproduce like we do)

I mean I don't think in any medium faeries die of age or the like...

how will that work out ? lol

[Durzan]

Nope, things are done as they have always been done. One eternal round. No need to "figure it out". The pathway to Eternal Life is well mapped and planned. If He "learned from His Father" then who's plan was it?

Doing things on one's own, without help, without a Savior is Satan's way. Humility is required to receive Celestial glory and to be like God. Elder Nelson commented yesterday about the reasons behind having dual natures in this life, so that we learn to depend on the Lord.

We have already spent an "eternity" in the presence of our Heavenly Father. We all passed the first estate test as mature spirits.

When a person can rejoice in the success of others, they will never be "bored" and their joy will be endless. This is probably why God's glory is not in the "figuring out" but in the bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This is also why we are told to love our God and secondly love our neighbor as our self. That is required in order to enjoy the success of others.

After thinking about what you said, I have reasoned the following below:

1.Satan's way was worse than what you stated: His way is doing all that he can to take away your agency.

2.I would suggest that "Doing things on your own without [the need for] God's help" isn't the devil's plan, but rather what Heavenly Father ultimately has in mind for us. The problem comes across when pride kicks in, as it too often does. Instead of saying "I think I can do this without help, but if it turns out I need it He is there to aid me..." Like it is supposed to be, our thoughts become "I DO NOT need ANY help whatsoever! I can do this ALL BY MYSELF!" Notice the difference in emphasis and wording, one is humble, and acknowledges that God can help him, while the other is prideful, and says that he can FOR SURE do something without any aid and by his own power. The second is the temptation of the devil. One acknowledges Heavenly Father's aid, the other puts everything to the power of man.

Now that I have said that, I also add that Heavenly Father is willing to help us, and indeed does what he can to help us. However, even with this support, he expects us to be able to do things on our own. He may add some background support, and lend us the Spirit to help us with our own decisions, but in the end, a portion of the effort is up to us.Just because we are supposed to be depending on the Lord doesn't mean that he wants us to rely on him for everything 100% of the time. He won't hand everything on a silver platter to us, because that would hinder our progression. Yes, He created us, and yes we need to be humble, and because he is our Father, we DO owe him everything and we need to be grateful for that and recognize the blessings that he does give us. However, because he is our father, and because the model of a family is based on the model of Heavenly Father's family, that means that I can draw certain parallels between our life now, and what our life may be like in the Celestial Kingdom.

Heavenly Father expects us to be able to do somethings on our own. Such is the purpose of growing up, and part of natural progression. You assumed that I meant that we would be doing things completely on our own. No, far from that...

3.In fact, let me use a simile to help illustrate my thoughts a bit better:

In this life, we become independent of our parents. That doesn't mean that we are completely alone, or that they are not providing advice or encouragement. What it just means that what direction we take, and the consequences we have to deal with everything is up to us; We no longer have training wheels, and we are no longer being coddled. Our earthly parents will still provide aid and advice as we need it, and as we ask for it, but it is ultimately up to us what we choose to do with it, or even if we accept the help at all.

Such a thing is logically similar to what God would have us be, although it is probably not exactly the same thing. He wants us to have the capacity to function and be independent. However, we are still as little children to him. Right now, we are still in the stage of "you can make some choices, but if you fall I will catch you" kind of stage. We have not yet grown into full "Adulthood" yet, and I would suppose that can only fully come to pass in God's presence, with an immortal body, and with the proper training and authority necessary to assume the role of a creator.

4.I wasn't saying that we shouldn't be humble, and willing to ask for His help. There are times when Heavenly Father expects us to do stuff on our own, to "study it out in our minds" first, before asking for help. This implies that he expects a certain amount of independence from us, yet still wishes for us to ask him for help when needed, like any good earthly parent would. Why should we expect anything different in the Celestial Kingdom? In our mortal life, things weren't handed to us on a silver platter, and I am confident that in our first estate things were not easy either. Because of this, I think it is safe to assume that things will not be easy in the Celestial Kingdom, especially since once we get there, it will only be just the beginning of our real learning. Becoming a world-builder is no easy task, I think, and Heavenly Father ways of teaching are found in the scriptures. He tells us what we need to know, and only the bare minimum at that, then he tells us what we are supposed to do, and lets us "study [the problem] out in our minds," and/or test our hypothesis, if you will, before he will confirm or correct it. Only after that, will he give us aid and instruction. He wants our minds to grow, and what better way than to let us "figure things out". Of course, he will give us guidance, of course we won't do it alone, but he ultimately wants us to have the capacity to be independent. That doesn't mean that we shake off all his influence, rather it means that we fulfill his desire for us to become like Him. And that particular statement mean a whole lot more than we give it credit for.

In the end, What I am really trying to say is that even in the Celestial Kingdom we are still progressing... to what? If we are perfect, and one with Heavenly Father, then what left is there to accomplish as far as our own progression is concerned? He is raising us to be like Him, which means exactly what it says: fully developed and independent creators, that share in his glory. Right now we are still children in the eternal sense, and as such we are still under his direct care. It will probably quite a while before we become fully developed, and until then, I think that we have quite a lot to learn.

I hope that I was able to add something to this conversation.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Durzan

[Seminarysnoozer]

After thinking about what you said, I have reasoned the following below:

1.Satan's way was worse than what you stated: His way is doing all that he can to take away your agency.

2.I would suggest that "Doing things on your own without [the need for] God's help" isn't the devil's plan, but rather what Heavenly Father ultimately has in mind for us. The problem comes across when pride kicks in, as it too often does. Instead of saying "I think I can do this without help, but if it turns out I need it He is there to aid me..." Like it is supposed to be, our thoughts become "I DO NOT need ANY help whatsoever! I can do this ALL BY MYSELF!" Notice the difference in emphasis and wording, one is humble, and acknowledges that God can help him, while the other is prideful, and says that he can FOR SURE do something without any aid and by his own power. The second is the temptation of the devil. One acknowledges Heavenly Father's aid, the other puts everything to the power of man.

Now that I have said that, I also add that Heavenly Father is willing to help us, and indeed does what he can to help us. However, even with this support, he expects us to be able to do things on our own. He may add some background support, and lend us the Spirit to help us with our own decisions, but in the end, a portion of the effort is up to us.Just because we are supposed to be depending on the Lord doesn't mean that he wants us to rely on him for everything 100% of the time. He won't hand everything on a silver platter to us, because that would hinder our progression. Yes, He created us, and yes we need to be humble, and because he is our Father, we DO owe him everything and we need to be grateful for that and recognize the blessings that he does give us. However, because he is our father, and because the model of a family is based on the model of Heavenly Father's family, that means that I can draw certain parallels between our life now, and what our life may be like in the Celestial Kingdom.

Heavenly Father expects us to be able to do somethings on our own. Such is the purpose of growing up, and part of natural progression. You assumed that I meant that we would be doing things completely on our own. No, far from that...

3.In fact, let me use a simile to help illustrate my thoughts a bit better:

In this life, we become independent of our parents. That doesn't mean that we are completely alone, or that they are not providing advice or encouragement. What it just means that what direction we take, and the consequences we have to deal with everything is up to us; We no longer have training wheels, and we are no longer being coddled. Our earthly parents will still provide aid and advice as we need it, and as we ask for it, but it is ultimately up to us what we choose to do with it, or even if we accept the help at all.

Such a thing is logically similar to what God would have us be, although it is probably not exactly the same thing. He wants us to have the capacity to function and be independent. However, we are still as little children to him. Right now, we are still in the stage of "you can make some choices, but if you fall I will catch you" kind of stage. We have not yet grown into full "Adulthood" yet, and I would suppose that can only fully come to pass in God's presence, with an immortal body, and with the proper training and authority necessary to assume the role of a creator.

4.I wasn't saying that we shouldn't be humble, and willing to ask for His help. There are times when Heavenly Father expects us to do stuff on our own, to "study it out in our minds" first, before asking for help. This implies that he expects a certain amount of independence from us, yet still wishes for us to ask him for help when needed, like any good earthly parent would. Why should we expect anything different in the Celestial Kingdom? In our mortal life, things weren't handed to us on a silver platter, and I am confident that in our first estate things were not easy either. Because of this, I think it is safe to assume that things will not be easy in the Celestial Kingdom, especially since once we get there, it will only be just the beginning of our real learning. Becoming a world-builder is no easy task, I think, and Heavenly Father ways of teaching are found in the scriptures. He tells us what we need to know, and only the bare minimum at that, then he tells us what we are supposed to do, and lets us "study [the problem] out in our minds," and/or test our hypothesis, if you will, before he will confirm or correct it. Only after that, will he give us aid and instruction. He wants our minds to grow, and what better way than to let us "figure things out". Of course, he will give us guidance, of course we won't do it alone, but he ultimately wants us to have the capacity to be independent. That doesn't mean that we shake off all his influence, rather it means that we fulfill his desire for us to become like Him. And that particular statement mean a whole lot more than we give it credit for.

In the end, What I am really trying to say is that even in the Celestial Kingdom we are still progressing... to what? If we are perfect, and one with Heavenly Father, then what left is there to accomplish as far as our own progression is concerned? He is raising us to be like Him, which means exactly what it says: fully developed and independent creators, that share in his glory. Right now we are still children in the eternal sense, and as such we are still under his direct care. It will probably quite a while before we become fully developed, and until then, I think that we have quite a lot to learn.

I hope that I was able to add something to this conversation.

The reason to "study it out in your mind" is to help us come to the conclusion that we cannot do it by our self. It is to have the ability to discern between the carnal and the spiritual more clearly so we know which one to follow.

And my point is that there is nothing to "figure out". All one has to do is obey. We are not here to "figure it out". By definition, that is looking for proof or a sign. One can learn by faith and obedience. That is the better way to learn. Especially when one believes that everything that comes from God is truth. Like what was said in conference this weekend, there is such a thing as intellectual bondage. It is part of the passions verses spiritual reason that Elder Nelson talked about. One can have carnal passions for intellectual or secular learning which leads to bondage as one strays away from true doctrine by depending on their own carnal intellect. Spiritual promptings will not lead one astray. To receive spiritual promptings one has to put away the idea that they could do it on their own.

Mosiah 2; " 20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth arequire that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you."

D&C 78; " 17 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you;

18 And ye cannot bear all things now; nevertheless, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours.

19 And he who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious; and the things of this earth shall be added unto him, even an hundred fold, yea, more.

20 Wherefore, do the things which I have commanded you, saith your Redeemer, even the Son Ahman, who prepareth all things before he taketh you;

21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion.

22 And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things. Amen."

What does "inherit" mean? It is the opposite of "figure it out" on your own.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Seminarysnoozer

[Dravin]

While I understand the thought of, "Oh, cool! I'll make a world with dragons, and fireballs, and elves with seas of potable ginger ale and cotton candy clouds!" I honestly doubt such impulses will be around if there comes a time to be making our own worlds, we'll have matured out of them. It's kinda like how most responsible adults have matured out of naming their children Ryu Deathskull Dragonbane by the time they have kids.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Dravin

[Durzan]

The reason to "study it out in your mind" is to help us come to the conclusion that we cannot do it by our self. It is to have the ability to discern between the carnal and the spiritual more clearly so we know which one to follow.

And my point is that there is nothing to "figure out". All one has to do is obey. We are not here to "figure it out". By definition, that is looking for proof or a sign. One can learn by faith and obedience. That is the better way to learn. Especially when one believes that everything that comes from God is truth. Like what was said in conference this weekend, there is such a thing as intellectual bondage. It is part of the passions verses spiritual reason that Elder Nelson talked about. One can have carnal passions for intellectual or secular learning which leads to bondage as one strays away from true doctrine by depending on their own carnal intellect. Spiritual promptings will not lead one astray. To receive spiritual promptings one has to put away the idea that they could do it on their own.

Mosiah 2; " 20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth arequire that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you."

D&C 78; " 17 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you;

18 And ye cannot bear all things now; nevertheless, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours.

19 And he who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious; and the things of this earth shall be added unto him, even an hundred fold, yea, more.

20 Wherefore, do the things which I have commanded you, saith your Redeemer, even the Son Ahman, who prepareth all things before he taketh you;

21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion.

22 And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things. Amen."

What does "inherit" mean? It is the opposite of "figure it out" on your own.

...and obeying God's commandments is one of the few things he expects us to do "on our own." The spirit does guide us and offers aid, but ultimately it is up to us.

When you say there is nothing to figure out, I say that that is ridiculous. God gave us an entire universe to study and to figure out... If the conclusions we come are off, well then, that is part of the experience of life, isn't it? Life is full of joys, and so long as we don't over indulge ourselves, or lose our perspective, then we are free to enjoy the good (or the bad) in life. We are here to see if we are willing to obey, not specifically to obey. It is our choice whether to do so or not. We are not puppets, we are God's children. IF we are willing to obey, then we will do so, if not, well then... I don't want to get into that, as it is off topic.

...Again, being righteously independent does not mean that we are without thankfulness or obedience. Your emphasis on those particular lines puzzles me, as I cannot see how they contradict what I say, because in my eyes there is no such contradiction, provided the independent person is righteous. Following God's commandments is a consious choice of our own free will, hence why we can be independent, yet still rely on God.

Those who don't rely on God suffer the lack of the benifits that come with not having the Spirit.

D&C 78; " 17 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you;

I say it again, on Earth, we are as little children, hence why such guidance is necessary. I do not dispute that we need guidence now. Verse 18 up above would support my notion that God is aiding us because we are not yet ready to bear "all things" on our own, and hence the emphasis on relying on God. The blessings referred to are many and we SHOULD be grateful for. As stated before, being independent does not necessarily mean that we are ungrateful. Said blessings are varied, some come naturally as a part of life, others as conditions for following the commandments and doing God's will. But in the end, it is our independent choice that determines whether we follow God or not.

God cannot truly help us, except we decide to accept said help, and that choice must be our own. He may be leading us, but it is our own decision whether or not to follow and that decision is what must be made on our own. In the end, it all boils down to whether we willingly accept God's aid of our own free will and on our own, or whether you discard his help and try to struggle through life on our own.

As for learning, I only agree with you partially. Faith and obedience are the best way for learning, but there are stipulations. The faith and obedience are part of a personal and independent action, based on the commandment given by God. Heavenly Father said to "study [a problem] out in your mind" and come to your own conclusion, then ask God if the conclusion we arrived at is correct, which he will then confirm or deny. Thus, it is my opinion that with this statement, he is emphasizing us to try to solve the problem ourselves, but be WILLING to accept aid from Heavenly Father by asking for confirmation.

As for the "Inheriting all things" being the opposite of "figuring things out", I would disagree. In life, you can inherit something, without knowing how to use it properly. Since we do not know what life in the Celestial Kingdom will specifically be like, I would not jump to conclusions that we would instantly gain all knowledge. Such a thing in my eyes would seem to be too easy. I have noticed that Heavenly Father expects us to work for things, so why should I expect anything different in the Celestial Kingdom? Inheriting God's attributes and creations, I would imagine, would require quite a bit of work even after we reach God's presence again. Since that is the case, it only seems logical, at least according to the current trend, that we would continue to learn bit by bit, line upon line, precept upon precept, what we need to know in the Celestial Kingdom, and in a similar but more refined manner to which we learn here on earth: After we being taught a parable or lesson, He would expect us to "Studying it out in our mind" aka, trying to "figure it out ourselves," until we are able to come to a conclusion. Then we ask him if the conclusion is correct, and he will use that opportunity to teach us further.

____________

While I understand the thought of, "Oh, cool! I'll make a world with dragons, and fireballs, and elves with seas of potable ginger ale and cotton candy clouds!" I honestly doubt such impulses will be around if there comes a time to be making our own worlds, we'll have matured out of them. It's kinda like how most responsible adults have matured out of naming their children Ryu Deathskull Dragonbane by the time they have kids.

I see what you are saying, but it seems to me that the idea of doing such a thing is not an issue of maturity, but rather of creativity.

Wouldn't anything we create bring us joy? Didn't God give us creativity and imagination for a reason? Saying that would be like saying that artists are immature; it has no proof.

Why would "I mature out of it?" I was given creativity for a reason. Why should it be considered immature? I am sure that Heavenly Father created many things, just for the fun of it and for the joy of creation. He probably has a whole list of ideas that he wants to try out at some point. Who is to determine if creating such a world would be "immature" or not? God, perhaps, although I would think that he would be understanding if my desire was to create such a place. In fact, he might give me advice as to how to go about it.

I don't think that creating a world "...with dragons, and fireballs, and elves with seas of portable ginger ale and cotton candy clouds..." would be immature at all. Rather, i see it as you manifesting your own creativity and taking joy in the creation of something of your own just for the sake of creating it. Not to mention it would help your own development by allowing you to become more familiar with your own newfound abilities and how they work. Such preparation and experience would almost certainly be necessary for when you decided to move on to the real task of raising your own eternal family. I would be willing to bet that some of Heavenly Father's creations were created purely for the joy of creation, and to let His own personal creativity shine through. This universe may well be the product of such work.

The issue of maturity, I think, would be more of along the line of when it would be appropriate to create such a world as you stated, and what to do with such a world once you have created it, and not that such a notion is flat out immature.

Part of my very nature is world building. Certainly that would be a wonderful (and completely relevant) trait to have in the Celestial Kingdom. Such a thing is inbuilt into my creative mind. I wouldn't mature out of it. Rather, it would be refined, becoming more than it currently is.

___________

Now, I will not say anything more on the subject, as everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I will not (nor can I) force my views upon anyone. I have stated my opinion twice, take from it what you will, and no matter how clearly I try to state my opinion, it will be misinterpreted.

I thank everyone for the interesting conversation. It was worth it. I hope that I got some people thinking and pondering...

Edited October 8, 2013 by Durzan

[Traveler]

I have concluded from carful observations that there are 6 great eternal cardinal principles that G-d follows in dealing with man – including his grand plan of happiness (Plan of Salvation).

1. G-d will not do for man what man can do for himself.

2. G-d will do for man that which man cannot do for himself.

3. G-d will not do for man that which is not of eternal benefit for man.

4. G-d will do for man that which is of eternal benefit for man.

5. G-d will not do form man that which is not acceptable to man.

6. G-d will do for man that which is acceptable to man.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

...and obeying God's commandments is one of the few things he expects us to do "on our own." The spirit does guide us and offers aid, but ultimately it is up to us.

When you say there is nothing to figure out, I say that that is ridiculous. God gave us an entire universe to study and to figure out... If the conclusions we come are off, well then, that is part of the experience of life, isn't it? Life is full of joys, and so long as we don't over indulge ourselves, or lose our perspective, then we are free to enjoy the good (or the bad) in life. We are here to see if we are willing to obey, not specifically to obey. It is our choice whether to do so or not. We are not puppets, we are God's children. IF we are willing to obey, then we will do so, if not, well then... I don't want to get into that, as it is off topic.

...Again, being righteously independent does not mean that we are without thankfulness or obedience. Your emphasis on those particular lines puzzles me, as I cannot see how they contradict what I say, because in my eyes there is no such contradiction, provided the independent person is righteous. Following God's commandments is a consious choice of our own free will, hence why we can be independent, yet still rely on God.

Those who don't rely on God suffer the lack of the benifits that come with not having the Spirit.

I say it again, on Earth, we are as little children, hence why such guidance is necessary. I do not dispute that we need guidence now. Verse 18 up above would support my notion that God is aiding us because we are not yet ready to bear "all things" on our own, and hence the emphasis on relying on God. The blessings referred to are many and we SHOULD be grateful for. As stated before, being independent does not necessarily mean that we are ungrateful. Said blessings are varied, some come naturally as a part of life, others as conditions for following the commandments and doing God's will. But in the end, it is our independent choice that determines whether we follow God or not.

God cannot truly help us, except we decide to accept said help, and that choice must be our own. He may be leading us, but it is our own decision whether or not to follow and that decision is what must be made on our own. In the end, it all boils down to whether we willingly accept God's aid of our own free will and on our own, or whether you discard his help and try to struggle through life on our own.

As for learning, I only agree with you partially. Faith and obedience are the best way for learning, but there are stipulations. The faith and obedience are part of a personal and independent action, based on the commandment given by God. Heavenly Father said to "study [a problem] out in your mind" and come to your own conclusion, then ask God if the conclusion we arrived at is correct, which he will then confirm or deny. Thus, it is my opinion that with this statement, he is emphasizing us to try to solve the problem ourselves, but be WILLING to accept aid from Heavenly Father by asking for confirmation.

As for the "Inheriting all things" being the opposite of "figuring things out", I would disagree. In life, you can inherit something, without knowing how to use it properly. Since we do not know what life in the Celestial Kingdom will specifically be like, I would not jump to conclusions that we would instantly gain all knowledge. Such a thing in my eyes would seem to be too easy. I have noticed that Heavenly Father expects us to work for things, so why should I expect anything different in the Celestial Kingdom? Inheriting God's attributes and creations, I would imagine, would require quite a bit of work even after we reach God's presence again. Since that is the case, it only seems logical, at least according to the current trend, that we would continue to learn bit by bit, line upon line, precept upon precept, what we need to know in the Celestial Kingdom, and in a similar but more refined manner to which we learn here on earth: After we being taught a parable or lesson, He would expect us to "Studying it out in our mind" aka, trying to "figure it out ourselves," until we are able to come to a conclusion. Then we ask him if the conclusion is correct, and he will use that opportunity to teach us further.

"Study it out in your mind" how much of what you know came from you. One can learn from others. Learning does not have to be based in one's own trial and error.

Yes, one can learn from trial and error but we are told that it is better to obey without having to be prompted. If one has to try A before choosing B and finds that choice A was not good because there were bad results by choosing A then that is a choice based in prompting, trial and error. As opposed to listening to someone who knows better and says, 'choose B'. If choice B is chosen because one is listening to the spirit then there is no trial and error, it is simply based in faith and it doesn't require proof. It is done without the proof.

One of the bad results of the attitude of "figuring out for one self" is that credit for success is given to self. That is what Satan wanted, all the glory for himself. He didn't want help, he couldn't swallow the idea of depending on a Savior, giving glory to someone else. But his ideas were false. Dependence brings glory, that is what is implied by statements like "an eye single to the glory of God" and "love your neighbor as your self". We can't save our self by our self. That is why I put those verses in about thankfulness, etc.

Most everything we know in this life came from someone else. Someone else developed the words we are using now. I learned from my parents and teachers growing up. I learn from listening to the spirit. I learn from reading books that someone else wrote. I benefit from their learning and developing the computer I am now using. All of these things were inherited and so my thanks goes outward not inward for that associated learning. God knows all. One is not going to discover something new that God has not yet known. There is no need to "figure it out" as it has already been figured out. The benefit in discovery for man, behind the veil (not having access to all the things we learned before) is in showing where we put our faith, in the teachings of man or of God. It shows our hearts desire. Where we put our time and effort and faith is part of the test more than the actual factual content of what is learned.

[mordorbund]

While I understand the thought of, "Oh, cool! I'll make a world with dragons, and fireballs, and elves with seas of potable ginger ale and cotton candy clouds!" I honestly doubt such impulses will be around if there comes a time to be making our own worlds, we'll have matured out of them. It's kinda like how most responsible adults have matured out of naming their children Ryu Deathskull Dragonbane by the time they have kids.

I tend to think that's why God's plan calls for a father AND a mother for each child. Otherwise I would be named "Amos Moses".