I'm Shocked

[Feta]

Hi everyone! I'm a long time lurker on this forum but I've never posted anything.

Anyway, I learned something today that totally shocked me and I feel like I need to talk about it and for some reason I don't want to talk about it with anyone I know personally.

So, earlier today a coworker of mine asked me how many wives Joseph Smith had. I said "One, Emma." He then told me that Joseph Smith had 34 WIVES!!! I didn't believe him because I'm sure I would have known that after going to church my whole life.

I was curious though and I went and looked it up. I was shocked to find out that everywhere I looked on the internet confirmed what my coworker said! And not only that, but 7 of his wives were under 18 and 11 were already married to other men!

I am seriously surprised by this. Is this common knowledge? Am I the only one who didn't know this? How have I spent over two decades going to church and not learned this!?

[estradling75]

I am seriously surprised by this. Is this common knowledge? Am I the only one who didn't know this? How have I spent over two decades going to church and not learned this!?

Yes it is common knowledge... Are you saying that in the two decades you have been a member you have never read, study, discussed or talked about Doctrine and Covenants 132?

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Feta,

How odd that two decades in church has never exposed you to the polygamist roots of the restoration of the church. Kudos for wanting to learn more.

I'd suggest you find a good bio of Joseph Smith to read. I can recommend a few:

Joseph Smith - Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman

Joseph Smith the first Mormon by Donna Hill

[applepansy]

I definitely recommend Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling. It is well written and not a dull history book.

I too am surprised that church history escaped you for two decades.

[Feta]

Yes it is common knowledge... Are you saying that in the two decades you have been a member you have never read, study, discussed or talked about Doctrine and Covenants 132?

I new about polygamy in the early church. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he too had several wives. I even had a year of seminary devoted to D&C, but Joseph's polygamy never came up.

I'm finding my self a bit bothered and I don't know how to explain why it would be good or acceptable for him to have teenage wives, or wives that are already married? Does anyone have any insight on this?

[applepansy]

I new about polygamy in the early church. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he too had several wives. I even had a year of seminary devoted to D&C, but Joseph's polygamy never came up.

I'm finding my self a bit bothered and I don't know how to explain why it would be good or acceptable for him to have teenage wives, or wives that are already married? Does anyone have any insight on this?

You need to read Rough Stone Rolling.

If you search here there are other threads discussing polygamy and Joseph Smith in detail. One thing to consider is that back in the early 1800s it was common for young people to marry in their early teens and not just girls. We get ourselves in trouble when we judge behavior from the 1800s by today's expectations.

Nothing anyone says here will be as clear and fair as Richard Bushman's book.

[Guest]

Just because he was sealed to them doesn't mean they ever lived as husband and wife or consummated the marriages. When sealing was a new revelation, in my opinion, it was a little misunderstood and not always implemented in the same way we do it today.

[Leah]

Hi everyone! I'm a long time lurker on this forum but I've never posted anything.

Anyway, I learned something today that totally shocked me and I feel like I need to talk about it and for some reason I don't want to talk about it with anyone I know personally.

So, earlier today a coworker of mine asked me how many wives Joseph Smith had. I said "One, Emma." He then told me that Joseph Smith had 34 WIVES!!! I didn't believe him because I'm sure I would have known that after going to church my whole life.

I was curious though and I went and looked it up. I was shocked to find out that everywhere I looked on the internet confirmed what my coworker said! And not only that, but 7 of his wives were under 18 and 11 were already married to other men!

I am seriously surprised by this. Is this common knowledge? Am I the only one who didn't know this? How have I spent over two decades going to church and not learned this!?

I am always amazed when someone who claims to have grown up LDS, says they never heard this information before. How can you get through two decades and never hear this? Are you saying this subject never came up anywhere ever in any context? I find that really hard to believe.

[Just_A_Guy]

I new about polygamy in the early church. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he too had several wives. I even had a year of seminary devoted to D&C, but Joseph's polygamy never came up.

I'm finding my self a bit bothered and I don't know how to explain why it would be good or acceptable for him to have teenage wives, or wives that are already married? Does anyone have any insight on this?

There's no easy way to categorize Joseph Smith's polygamous relationships. Some were very probably husband-wife in nature that likely included sexual relations. Others were "dynastic" sealings--fathers like Heber C. Kimball who approached Joseph and asked that Joseph marry his fourteen-year-old daughter as a symbol of an eternal union between the two families--where the marriage was most likely never consummated. Where married women were concerned--sometimes, it was acknowledged that the union was only binding in the afterlife (and thus, again, unconsummated); other times, the women involved considered themselves divorced from their husbands already and so the participants didn't view the union as adulterous.

Marital ages of women did trend somewhat younger than now, and mid-teenaged-brides were certainly not unknown (in colonial Virginia I believe girls could get married at age twelve); but it's also maybe a bit of an overstatement to call such marriages "common" for the period. Of course, the modern concept of "statutory rape" didn't really exist in laws of the period--certainly not as pertaining to women the ages of Joseph Smith's wives.

Frankly, there are probably as many reasons for Joseph Smith's marriages, as there were marriages themselves. Study up on it, don't rush to conclusions, and stay close to the Lord.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Mahone]

I am always amazed when someone who claims to have grown up LDS, says they never heard this information before. How can you get through two decades and never hear this? Are you saying this subject never came up anywhere ever in any context? I find that really hard to believe.

I've been a member of the church since I was 13 - I'm 26 now.

The only reason I know anything about the subject of this thread is through my own research online. It has never been discussed, or even mentioned in any church meeting or lesson I have attended for the last 13 years.

So I don't find this hard to believe at all.

[Feta]

I am always amazed when someone who claims to have grown up LDS, says they never heard this information before. How can you get through two decades and never hear this? Are you saying this subject never came up anywhere ever in any context? I find that really hard to believe.

I admit I'm not an avid scripture reader and I don't actively try to learn more about church history. I've never read D&C cover to cover and I honestly didn't know about section 132. I basically have learned what I know from what was taught in church. I knew about polygamy, but didn't realize that it was actually something that came as revelation and was practiced by church leaders and prophets. I kind of dismissed it and assumed it was just something that a few non important church members did.

I just read D&C 132 for the first time. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around this. It says it's OK for a man to espouse additional virgins, but 11 of his wives were not virgins (I assume, since they were already married). Could "virgin" be interpreted as "unmarried woman", or maybe "unsealed woman"? What could the possible reason be for him marrying women that are already married to mormon men?

[estradling75]

In twenty years you haven't heard the church say that we need to be diligent about studying the scriptures?

Hmm it seems to me that your shock is a result of expecting to be spoon fed in a church that tries to teach people to be self reliant (This would include spirituality)

[Just_A_Guy]

I just read D&C 132 for the first time. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around this. It says it's OK for a man to espouse additional virgins, but 11 of his wives were not virgins (I assume, since they were already married). Could "virgin" be interpreted as "unmarried woman", or maybe "unsealed woman"? What could the possible reason be for him marrying women that are already married to mormon men?

See verses 43-44 for one possible explanation. The FLDS have run wild with this idea, to the point that wives are reassigned from one husband to the next practically willy-nilly. I don't think that was the intent of the revelation at all. However, Sylvia Sessions Lyon claimed on her deathbed that she conceived her daughter Josephine, by Joseph Smith, at a time when her husband Windsor Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church. (DNA testing on this theory has so far been inconclusive.)

I think Brian Hales just produced or is producing a significant work on Joseph Smith's polygamy. You might want to Google for it.

[NeuroTypical]

So Feta? You're asking important questions that deserve great answers. You honestly don't find great answers on anonymous message boards - just links to things you can study. You've been given links. Are you going to avail yourself of them?

Everyone who learns something surprising like this goes through what you're going through - you're hardly the first person to be taken aback and knocked off kilter at learning about polygamy. But right now, you're at the "I just heard some people on the internet said stuff" phase. Do you think your need to understand can be put at ease by some other people on the internet?

Here's another way to look at things. From D&C 46:

And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church. For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

And again, to some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know the differences of administration, as it will be pleasing unto the same Lord, according as the Lord will, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men. And again, it is given by the Holy Ghost to some to know the diversities of operations, whether they be of God, that the manifestations of the Spirit may be given to every man to profit withal.

And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom. To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.

This is a list of some of the gifts God grants us individually. Do you think the part I bolded applies to you? Is it sufficient to you, to hear that other believing members have looked into polygamy and still maintain their testimony in the truthfulness of the work? If that's enough for you, then here you go. I've researched, read, thought, and prayed a lot about plural marriage and the more interesting aspects of our church's history. I've sought out criticisms and critics, and interacted with both, emerging on the other side with my testimony intact. God is real, Jesus Christ is His son and my Savior, Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, and Pres. Monson is the current prophet leading the Lord's modern church.

If statements like mine are enough for you, then I guess there's no need to look further. If you want to know more, better to read actual books about it and ponder and pray, instead of listening to random loudmouth mormons on the internet. :)

[Feta]

In twenty years you haven't heard the church say that we need to be diligent about studying the scriptures?

Hmm it seems to me that your shock is a result of expecting to be spoon fed in a church that tries to teach people to be self reliant (This would include spirituality)

I get it, I need to study more. Do you have anything useful to say about my concerns and questions?

I hate to say it, but just researching this on the internet is not making Joseph look like a good person, let alone a prophet of God.

I think it would be useful for me to read a biography on Joseph Smith. It looks like the two big ones are "Rough Stone Rolling" and "No Man Knows My History". You guys have recommended the first one already, has anyone read the second? Is it good too? I ask because my library has "No Man Knows My History" , but not "Rough Stone Rolling".

[Just_A_Guy]

"No Man Knows My History" was written by Fawn Brodie, who was a niece of David O. McKay. That said, it's hardly sympathetic to Smith. Most orthodox Mormons would have some real problems with her conclusions (Hugh Nibley wrote a rebuttal entitled "No, Ma'am, that's not history").

That said: She did get into some pretty good sources for her era. But then again--the scholarship in that book is seventy years old by now. Even if you leave aside the ongoing publication of the Joseph Smith Papers--I think it would be difficult to try to get to know Smith's character while ignoring some of the excellent work that was done on him back in the 1970s and 1980s.

[estradling75]

I get it, I need to study more. Do you have anything useful to say about my concerns and questions?

I hate to say it, but just researching this on the internet is not making Joseph look like a good person, let alone a prophet of God.

I sure do... Study the scriptures and get on your knees and pray and ask God if the revelations Joseph Smith gave are true. When you get a yes you can realize it doesn't matter how flawed, weak, and otherwise human Joseph Smith was. All those do is show that the Lord is capable of using anything and anyone to advance his work.

While histories and other members (including all of us here on the forum) can tell you anything because we all have our own biases. Trusting anyone other then God is putting your faith in the arm of the flesh and that is just going to lead to more shocks and surprises for you.

[Dravin]

I ask because my library has "No Man Knows My History" , but not "Rough Stone Rolling".

I'd look into seeing if your library does inter-library loans and if it is available through such. It may not be of course, not all libraries participate in such and even if it does it's partner libraries may not have it, but it is worth looking into.

[yjacket]

I get it, I need to study more. Do you have anything useful to say about my concerns and questions?

I hate to say it, but just researching this on the internet is not making Joseph look like a good person, let alone a prophet of God.

I think it would be useful for me to read a biography on Joseph Smith. It looks like the two big ones are "Rough Stone Rolling" and "No Man Knows My History". You guys have recommended the first one already, has anyone read the second? Is it good too? I ask because my library has "No Man Knows My History" , but not "Rough Stone Rolling".

Looks like you might be at the beginning stages of SFS.

2013 Shaken Faith Syndrome, Part Deux « FAIR

I second Rolling Stone. One of the things we in the modern culture have a very hard time doing is to see things from the perspective of those who lived in a different time. Just like to modern culture slavery is and was horrible institution. Yet go back 300 years and while there were people who didn't like it, there were people who believed slavery as an institution that was ordained by God.

In the early days of the restoration, there was a period of time where a huge chunk of members fell away, in fact if IIRC without the massive wave of new converts coming in the church would have been in a world of hurt. Members claimed that Joseph was a "fallen" prophet. Understanding the time period, the situation, the context gives meaning to yes I can see how some early members would have issues. In fact, his death to a large extent was facilitated by former members.

Ultimately, however (and those who didn't fall away relied on this) the bedrock of testimony is in Jesus Christ and our personal relationship with him. If we have that then we can claim being Christian. If we have a witness that JS saw God and Jesus, translated the BoM by the power of God and established His church and that we have a prophet today, then we can claim we are Mormons in addition to being Christian.

The first item is the most important and too many people believe b/c Christ was perfect it means His prophets and His church is perfect. Neither are or will be. Prophets make mistakes and need the Atonement just as much as we do and just as much as the Church does too. Everything else is secondary to the 1st item. Prophets and the church exists to bring people unto Christ and ultimately to eternal life. Church on Sunday isn't a history lesson, it's about teaching each other how we can bring our lives in accordance with His will.

[Guest]

Just to let you know, a member of our ward who is a return missionary and has held the calling Ward Mission Leader as well as EQ counsellor and whose wife was a Young Women President left the church and are now posting likes to atheist posts on FB and trying to get other "ignorant Mormons" to leave the church.

All because they claimed the Church deceived them for hiding the truth that Joseph Smith is a pedophile...

[Backroads]

I don't find it impossible to believe, but I'm still a little surprised.

Now before go accusing the Church of hiding history, remember that our Church lessons are pretty much there to build faith and learn of gospel principles as they apply to us. It's not really for learning history for history's sake. So I'm not surprised that Joseph's polygamy doesn't come up as often as some might like it to. And I think it's best that way. I find gospel doctrine heated debates irritating.

Generally, I'd say this information is usually discovered in personal study or conversations with others outside the formal gospel doctrine class setting. But the Church taking painstaking attempts to hide it? I don't think that happens. The history is there for the research, one just has to do it himself.

But it seems a big number of Mormons usually happen upon it one way or another.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Backroads

[yjacket]

All because they claimed the Church deceived them for hiding the truth that Joseph Smith is a pedophile...

That's just a little bit of a stretch there. From wiki (hey it's the internets :-))

(generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13)

I haven't seen anything that indicates any wives under the age 14 . . .

[jerome1232]

Generally, I'd say this information is usually discovered in personal study or conversations with others outside the formal gospel doctrine class setting. But the Church taking painstaking attempts to hide it? I don't think that happens. The history is there for the research, one just has to do it himself.

One has to consider that the Church is the very entity preserving the vast majority of this history, detailed history just isn't one of our Sunday classes, doctrine is.

[NeuroTypical]

Our church used to get all sorts of accusations that we were intentionally hiding from our history. Even today, folks with stories similar to the OP will complain about feeling cheated, bamboozled, or lied to because someone didn't adequately ensure that they were adequately educated about the things that are currently troubling them.

So, just to make sure there are no misunderstandings about our church's openness on it's history:

LDS.ORG search on 'Polygamy'

.

[Mahone]

I don't find it impossible to believe, but I'm still a little surprised.

Now before go accusing the Church of hiding history, remember that our Church lessons are pretty much there to build faith and learn of gospel principles as they apply to us. It's not really for learning history for history's sake. So I'm not surprised that Joseph's polygamy doesn't come up as often as some might like it to. And I think it's best that way. I find gospel doctrine heated debates irritating.

Generally, I'd say this information is usually discovered in personal study or conversations with others outside the formal gospel doctrine class setting. But the Church taking painstaking attempts to hide it? I don't think that happens. The history is there for the research, one just has to do it himself.

But it seems a big number of Mormons usually happen upon it one way or another.

I haven't even implied that the church has intended to hide their history. My only claim was that I wasn't surprised that the subject hasn't just "come up" in conversation, despite the OP being a member of the church for a lengthy period of time. You're referring to something entirely unrelated to my post, so I'm unsure as to why I was quoted?