Mental illness vs. physical illness

[applepansy]

I'm still wondering. Are they calling people mentally ill if they become severely depressed because something bad happened to them? For instance : A spouse passing away. It sounded like that according to Elder Holland's talk, but I can't get my head around it. My thinking has been that mental illness is something wrong with brain chemistry or.. sorry, I'm trying to find the right words so I'm sorry if I come across wrong.. like someone who is bi-polar or someone hearing voices hearing voices. Something out of their control. I thought someone who doesn't have mental illness and then has something bad happen is going through a trial.

In today's psychiatric world all diagnoses involving the brain, moon or emotion is under the label of mental illness. So yes depression is now classified as a mental illness regardless of the cause.

The reason is for insurance reimbursement. Insurance won't pay for the doctor's appoint for a diagnosis of unhappy or sad.

Actually this reimbursement has been the driving factor behind what is considered a mental illness and what isn't.

[Vort]

I think that actually, you believe that anyone with different struggles than you needs to repent and become more like you.

I'll just say that my worst depression came during one of my most faithful times, when I was doing everything "right" and putting more effort into the Gospel than any other time in my life. I was living righteously, faithfully reading, praying, journaling, etc. I know it helped. I know it got me through. I also know that I should have been on medication at that time, because I was still deeply depressed and struggling just to get out of bed. I'm not sure what I should have been repenting of. What do you think?

[applepansy]

I think that actually, you believe that anyone with different struggles than you needs to repent and become more like you.

I'll just say that my worst depression came during one of my most faithful times, when I was doing everything "right" and putting more effort into the Gospel than any other time in my life. I was living righteously, faithfully reading, praying, journaling, etc. I know it helped. I know it got me through. I also know that I should have been on medication at that time, because I was still deeply depressed and struggling just to get out of bed. I'm not sure what I should have been repenting of. What do you think?

I wouldn't use the word repent in relationship to what you're experiencing. Its the wrong concept. You have nothing to repent of.

It has been proven scientifically that if we change our thoughts we can change the chemistry in our brain that causes depression. If we have negative thoughts, especially negativity towards ourselves or our situation, and we consciously change that negative thought to a more positive thought then we change our brain chemistry in a way which causes less depression. Medications change the chemistry but only for the short term. To change our brain chemistry long term we have to change our thoughts.

I put this concept into practice. It worked. Now when I feel myself falling back into the black whole of depression I do two things, 1) take St. John's Wort (because medications don't work for me) and 2) when a negative thought pops into my head I change it to something positive and then reinforce it by repeating it several times. With this process I've been able to stop the full blown episodes of clinical depression that have become part of my life with Fibromyalgia.

Edited December 6, 2013 by applepansy

[person122]

I believe that there are many considerations - and as soon as I give an opinion (like Vort) someone will likely take offense. To begin - I generally believe that illness (both mental and physical) is related (either directly or indirectly) to corrupted influences (unclean spirits) as part of our mortal state.

I also believe that in all cases we can make personal choices to either "better" our condition or "worsen" it. This does not necessarily mean that we can "cure" ourselves through our choices - only that we have some input into changing for benefit or for determent.

What I find ironic is that for the most part those that are personally suffering from something mental, physical or even spiritual (I might add other points here - such as economical, social or any number of other such things) that they most often do not like input (criticism) of possible solutions they can personally take upon themselves. For the most part - what ever solutions we seem to seek are solutions that place the greater burden outside our personal responsibility. In the case of various illnesses - we want to take a pill and be done with it. Often with various others things, economical or social - we want either sympathy or some kind of gift. But we do not want to change our personal status quo even if such action can be beneficial.

I have suggested in past discussion that we consider repentance as a possible attitude in dealing with various illnesses - both physical and mental. Not sure I got any happy responses from that; which convinced me that very few have a similar understanding of repentance that I have learned and experienced and that they did not want any part of such thinking - despite the fact that they are expressing great difficulty currently.

The Traveler

The problem is there are people with real mental problems.

Now, if you are talking about people who are healthy but some thought practice, upbringing or poor choices and such are causing a problem then the atonement can work. The problem is His ways are not our ways. We try to fix our own problems according to the way we our natural unhealthy self would do it or the way others would have us do it. It is a hard concept that there are some problems only Heavenly Father can fix. And then when He does try to fix us we don't like it. We don't realize that the pain is part of the process. It hurts. It really hurts and most of the time we don't know why we are going through it. It isn't until afterwards that we can see why we went through it. Just like everything else we have to go experience it to start understanding it.

Big atonement fan, too!

[applepansy]

LOL I wish that applied. Men suffer from clinical depression too.

Edit: Vort, I've typed three sentences and deleted them. I don't think you intend it but posting this video in reply to Eowyn's post will leave a negative impression of your intent.

Edited December 6, 2013 by applepansy

[applepansy]

The problem is there are people with real mental problems.

Now, if you are talking about people who are healthy but some thought practice, upbringing or poor choices and such are causing a problem then the atonement can work. The problem is His ways are not our ways. We try to fix our own problems according to the way we our natural unhealthy self would do it or the way others would have us do it. It is a hard concept that there are some problems only Heavenly Father can fix. And then when He does try to fix us we don't like it. We don't realize that the pain is part of the process. It hurts. It really hurts and most of the time we don't know why we are going through it. It isn't until afterwards that we can see why we went through it. Just like everything else we have to go experience it to start understanding it.

Big atonement fan, too!

I KNOW that Heavenly Father can heal everything, both physical and mental. My clinical depression was triggered because I don't understand the reasons He didn't heal me.

I've come to recognize the blessings that have come from a chronic illness. One is a closer relationship with my Savior. I would miss that lesson if I got better. But... I'd still like to be out of pain.

[Traveler]

I think that actually, you believe that anyone with different struggles than you needs to repent and become more like you.

I'll just say that my worst depression came during one of my most faithful times, when I was doing everything "right" and putting more effort into the Gospel than any other time in my life. I was living righteously, faithfully reading, praying, journaling, etc. I know it helped. I know it got me through. I also know that I should have been on medication at that time, because I was still deeply depressed and struggling just to get out of bed. I'm not sure what I should have been repenting of. What do you think?

Why are you sure that my struggles are so different than yours - or anyone elses?

The Traveler

[Guest]

Because you place such condemnation on people who suffer with mental illness, or anything that makes them overweight, or. . .

[Guest]

I KNOW that Heavenly Father can heal everything, both physical and mental. My clinical depression was triggered because I don't understand the reasons He didn't heal me.

I've come to recognize the blessings that have come from a chronic illness. One is a closer relationship with my Savior. I would miss that lesson if I got better. But... I'd still like to be out of pain.

What if part of that healing comes in the form of a medication that restores a serotonin deficit?

[Traveler]

I KNOW that Heavenly Father can heal everything, both physical and mental. My clinical depression was triggered because I don't understand the reasons He didn't heal me.

I've come to recognize the blessings that have come from a chronic illness. One is a closer relationship with my Savior. I would miss that lesson if I got better. But... I'd still like to be out of pain.

Thank you for this insight - I believe repentance is the effort to make the best of our circumstance. Which is greater than being healed - it it the means by which we become whole. Thanks again.

The Traveler

[Guest]

Tell me again, please, what it is that I can repent of so that my depression goes away? You haven't answered.

[Vort]

LOL I wish that applied. Men suffer from clinical depression too.

Edit: Vort, I've typed three sentences and deleted them. I don't think you intend it but posting this video in reply to Eowyn's post will leave a negative impression of your intent.

I thought it was funny. Sorry if anyone imbued it with unintended meaning.

Eowyn said, "You believe that anyone with different struggles than you needs to repent and become more like you." That last part reminded me of "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man?", a very funny rant from My Fair Lady spoken by Professor Henry Higgins, an innocently misogynistic academic who cannot for the life of him figure out the actions of his protégé, the lovely flower girl Eliza:

If I were hours late for dinner, would you bellow?

If I forgot your silly birthday, would you fuss?

Would you complain if I took out another fellow?

Why can't a woman be like us?

...

If I was

[sic]

a woman who'd been to a ball -

Been hailed as a princess by one and by all -

Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing

Or carry on as if my home were in a tree?

Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?

Why can't a woman be like me?

Edited December 6, 2013 by Vort

[Guest]

And would you believe that I struggled a great deal with the decision to finally accept the help that medication offers me? After years of trying many, many things and struggling with more and more frequent depressive episodes? Would you believe that both my husband and I put the matter to fasting and prayer, and we both came to a positive answer? If you knew how strongly my husband feels against many meds, especially psychotropics, you would understand how significant that is.

FWIW, the meds have already made an enormous difference. Not that I don't still have negative feelings. Not that I still don't need to do other things. But they have helped give me the ability to actually do those things.

And not that it's really any of your business. I can't believe I'm even spending my morning justifying that to you.

But I am, for the sake of everyone that has been told that if they will just do x or y, or be more righteous, or repent, or try harder, they will feel better. That comes from a place of arrogance and ignorance, not compassion. It's not true for everyone. I did that for 20-some years. Then I finally find something that helps, and I have to justify it. It's demeaning.

[estradling75]

The problem is there are people with real mental problems.

Now, if you are talking about people who are healthy but some thought practice, upbringing or poor choices and such are causing a problem then the atonement can work. The problem is His ways are not our ways. We try to fix our own problems according to the way we our natural unhealthy self would do it or the way others would have us do it. It is a hard concept that there are some problems only Heavenly Father can fix. And then when He does try to fix us we don't like it. We don't realize that the pain is part of the process. It hurts. It really hurts and most of the time we don't know why we are going through it. It isn't until afterwards that we can see why we went through it. Just like everything else we have to go experience it to start understanding it.

Big atonement fan, too!

I would like to add to this...

I find I dislike the 'If you had enough faith...' response to problems. I understand were it comes from but I believe it comes from a incomplete understanding of what the Lord is talking about. Faith can not get us out of test and trials that the Lord has ordained for us to go through (aka mortality) Although it is of great help in getting us through them. Take for example Paul, he prayed in faith for the Lord to remove a 'thorn in the flesh' that afflicted him. The Lord's answer was no. Did he lack faith? If you answer yes then I have to I think it is totally unreasonable to expect us for not having greater faith then Paul did. If you answer no, that Paul had enough faith... Then you also have to accept the Lord's answer in not responding to the act of faith might apply others as well.

[applepansy]

What if part of that healing comes in the form of a medication that restores a serotonin deficit?

Eowyn, sometimes meds are necessary. There is not what if. If you need the medication and it helps, then take it. Don't beat yourself up about it. And don't listen to naysayers. Your journey is your jounrney, only you can decides what is best for you.

[applepansy]

Tell me again, please, what it is that I can repent of so that my depression goes away? You haven't answered.

I thought I did. I'm confused.

[Guest]

I was asking Traveler, who is the one using the word "repentance".

[applepansy]

And would you believe that I struggled a great deal with the decision to finally accept the help that medication offers me? After years of trying many, many things and struggling with more and more frequent depressive episodes? Would you believe that both my husband and I put the matter to fasting and prayer, and we both came to a positive answer? If you knew how strongly my husband feels against many meds, especially psychotropics, you would understand how significant that is.

FWIW, the meds have already made an enormous difference. Not that I don't still have negative feelings. Not that I still don't need to do other things. But they have helped give me the ability to actually do those things.

And not that it's really any of your business. I can't believe I'm even spending my morning justifying that to you.

But I am, for the sake of everyone that has been told that if they will just do x or y, or be more righteous, or repent, or try harder, they will feel better. That comes from a place of arrogance and ignorance, not compassion. It's not true for everyone. I did that for 20-some years. Then I finally find something that helps, and I have to justify it. It's demeaning.

In my journey with chronic pain and depression I've come to realize that MY struggles are mine because there are lessons I needed to learn. My journey will not be the same as anyone else's. I refuse to let other people's opinions matter, but they do hurt sometimes. Especially family.

Being more righteous, repent or try harder won't help until the chemical imbalance is corrected. Meds, herbs and cognitive changes are the only things that can help. Don't listen to naysayers. Just do what is best for you.

BTW, I list an unsympathetic husband as a naysayer. But that's just me. Either my husband is on board with my healing or he's not. I can't change his opinions. All I can do is what is best for me. Sometimes that's meant we don't talk about it. Surprisingly after 15 years he thinks the same way about most meds as I do. :) Not arguing for decades got the result I needed.

[applepansy]

I have suggested in past discussion that we consider repentance as a possible attitude in dealing with various illnesses - both physical and mental. Not sure I got any happy responses from that; which convinced me that very few have a similar understanding of repentance that I have learned and experienced and that they did not want any part of such thinking - despite the fact that they are expressing great difficulty currently.

The Traveler

Traveler,

Repentance doesn't always play a role in healing in the same way for everyone. Telling someone they need to repent when they are seeking advice on healing usually gets the wrong reaction because nobody except Christ can know if repentance is necessary or will help. Its a personal journey, which is why I don't tell someone with depression or other illnesses to repent to feel better.

However, I will say this: Repentance has helped me. Not to be out of pain but to be closer to my Heavenly Father and Savior. I need to be close so that I can cope with the pain and depression. Being close spiritually has also helped me in listening to personal revelation regarding my struggles.

I don't think its appropriate to bring repentence into a discussion like this because this discussion is general and repentance is personal and it will always be perceived as hurtful.

[Finrock]

Part of having faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ is believing that it can heal you but, often neglected, is also the belief that it can sustain you and compensate for the weaknesses, trials, and suffering that may still endure through-out your life.

For me the switch was recognizing that all of the hurt in my life has been swallowed up in the atonement. The atonement has completely covered those things. Part of my journey also required me recognizing that I can take my burdens, my sins, and place them on the shoulders of the Savior while I find time to heal. This means that healing isn't always immediate. It also means that getting rid of the things in my life that are contributing to my suffering is a process. God allows us to work on one thing at a time. I don't know if I am describing it right but when I allowed God to take my burdens from me it freed me to be able to tackle the issues that were and are plaguing my life. For me this means healing from the wounds inflicted by others and healing from the wounds I've inflicted upon myself because of my sins. I now know that I can do all things if I continue in faith in Christ.

I am not filled with charity. I don't have perfect faith in the atonement. I don't have all things figured out. I don't have all of the answers to the struggles in my life. What I do have is an abiding faith and hope in the atonement. I know it is real. I have tasted a portion of it. I don't worry any more that I have "issues". I know that in time they will work out for my good. Again, I'm not immune from being hurt and having struggles, I just know because God has made it known to me by the power of His spirit, that everything is in order and God is in control. All things will work out for my good. I love this part of the gospel. I love Jesus Christ. I love His atonement.

-Finrock

[Just_A_Guy]

I was asking Traveler, who is the one using the word "repentance".

Eowyn, I have no idea if this is where Traveler is coming from or not, but I would offer this:

I think generally, in the Church, we identify "repentance" as something we have done after we have "sinned"--and that's why telling someone to "repent" is often such a loaded statement; because when we say "repent" we often mean "you're fouling up--stop it!"

But "repentance" really just means "change", and that's something we all need to do--not because we're actively "sinning", necessarily, but just because of our fallen natures generally. It's more than just the five "r"'s or however it gets taught in Sunday School--it involves finding new ways of opening one's self up to the Lord so that His healing power may be felt more effectively--basically, engaging the process that Finrock talks about above. That's why the Church's addiction recovery program--which is first and foremost, a program of repentance--is the curriculum not just in the group meetings for recovering addicts; but in the group meetings for the victims of recovering addicts.

Does that make any sense?

[applepansy]

Part of having faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ is believing that it can heal you but, often neglected, is also the belief that it can sustain you and compensate for the weaknesses, trials, and suffering that may still endure through-out your life.

For me the switch was recognizing that all of the hurt in my life has been swallowed up in the atonement. The atonement has completely covered those things. Part of my journey also required me recognizing that I can take my burdens, my sins, and place them on the shoulders of the Savior while I find time to heal. This means that healing isn't always immediate. It also means that getting rid of the things in my life that are contributing to my suffering is a process. God allows us to work on one thing at a time. I don't know if I am describing it right but when I allowed God to take my burdens from me it freed me to be able to tackle the issues that were and are plaguing my life. For me this means healing from the wounds inflicted by others and healing from the wounds I've inflicted upon myself because of my sins. I now know that I can do all things if I continue in faith in Christ.

I am not filled with charity. I don't have perfect faith in the atonement. I don't have all things figured out. I don't have all of the answers to the struggles in my life. What I do have is an abiding faith and hope in the atonement. I know it is real. I have tasted a portion of it. I don't worry any more that I have "issues". I know that in time they will work out for my good. Again, I'm not immune from being hurt and having struggles, I just know because God has made it known to me by the power of His spirit, that everything is in order and God is in control. All things will work out for my good. I love this part of the gospel. I love Jesus Christ. I love His atonement.

-Finrock

Thank you. I think you said it well.

I don't have a perfect faith but I do know I can be healed. I've also learned that my definition of healing might be different from my Savior's definition of healing. I have enough faith now to realize that His definition is in my best interest long term (eternity) while my definition is more temporal.

[applepansy]

I feel like I'm on both sides of the conversation. I'm also trying to figure out why there is a division.

Maybe after some contemplation I'll be able to put my thoughts into understandable sentences and paragraphs.

[person122]

Eowyn, I have no idea if this is where Traveler is coming from or not, but I would offer this:

I think generally, in the Church, we identify "repentance" as something we have done after we have "sinned"--and that's why telling someone to "repent" is often such a loaded statement; because when we say "repent" we often mean "you're fouling up--stop it!"

I thought he was talking about grace.

[person122]

I think the problem is everybody defines mental illness differently according to their knowledge and experiences. Also the atonement is one of those things each of us has a different view of also.

Edited December 6, 2013 by person122