Deeply bothered

[antispatula]

Hey, i am an active lds man attending byu. It has come to my attention that some discrepancies between the kjv, jst, and book of mormon, and its really bothering me. Any sincere insights would be greatly appreciated. Oddly enough, this stuff came to my attention studying out of the new testament manual for my religion class this semester.

In both the kjv and bom, it says "and whosoever shall compell thee to go a mile, go with him twain." ( matt 5:41 and 3 nephi 12:41). Yet in the jst, it reads "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him a mile; and whosoever shall compel thee to go with him twain, thou shalt go with him twain."(jst matthew 5:41).

Note that this jst change is not in the lds bible footnotes or appendix, but is included in the "full version" available online or for purchase.

I understand that the jst is rarely just a verbatim restoration of text, and that it is often to clarify or expound on doctinal ideas, but these two versions seem to contradict eachother-one says we should give what is asked, and one says we should give more. And the thing that disturbs me the most is the fact that not only does the BOM verse disagree with the jst, it agrees word for word with the kjv that is supposedly wrong. And again, its not as if the jst is simply clarifying an idea-it changes the meaning completely.

Please, please help me. I feel like i am in a very dark time. Please take 2 minutes out of your busy day to help, if you feel like you have a good answer.

[skippy740]

Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Selections from the Joseph Smith Translation are also included in the footnotes and the appendix in the LDS-published King James Version of the Bible, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) has only officially canonized certain excerpts that appear in its Pearl of Great Price. These excerpts are the Book of Moses and Smith's revision of part of the Gospel of Matthew.

My question to you is this: Why are you letting something that is not canonized scripture bother you?

[skippy740]

I would also apply D&C 91 to your thoughts on this matter:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

Is there a reason that we are not using the JST version of the Bible? Sure. Do I know what that reason is? No idea.

It is POSSIBLE (and this is just a theory with plenty of speculation), that the JST was corrupted... just like the plot to change the translation of the stolen 116 pages of the Book of Lehi. I don't know this, but it may be a possible reason why we don't incorporate more of the JST edition.

Considering that it is canonized by the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS), it may be possible that is a reason... or it may be due to copy write laws.

Since you have a copy, I would place more emphasis on the canonized LDS scriptures and not so much on the JST edition.

[Vort]

The JST does not claim to be a "retranslation" or a "correction" or even a "restoration". It may provide some or all of those things at some points, but at others it is clearly a commentary or expansion or meditation of what is being provided. One scripture can mean many things to different people, and even many things to the same person at different times. The Prophet Joseph Smith, like all other prophets, cited the teachings of previous prophets to explain his own teachings -- even when those teachings were not actually literally what the previous prophets meant. If you don't think this is common, reread the Old Testament citations in Matthew and observe how the author often messes up the quotation and often the very sense of meaning of those scriptures. Very, very sloppy -- yet we consider Matthew inspired scripture.

Meaning is provided through the Holy Ghost, and in no other way. I think your fears are misguided in this instance.

[NeuroTypical]

And the thing that disturbs me the most is the fact that not only does the BOM verse disagree with the jst, it agrees word for word with the kjv that is supposedly wrong.

antispatula, I'd suggest you learn a little about how records are preserved, how cultures and languages shift and change over time, and how the translation process works.

If this item is truly the root of your being deeply bothered, learning about how mortals write stuff down over time should solve your problem. If your being bothered has some other source, you'll still be bothered.

Are you sure this issue is the source of your being bothered?

[antispatula]

I would also apply D&C 91 to your thoughts on this matter:

Is there a reason that we are not using the JST version of the Bible? Sure. Do I know what that reason is? No idea.

It is POSSIBLE (and this is just a theory with plenty of speculation), that the JST was corrupted... just like the plot to change the translation of the stolen 116 pages of the Book of Lehi. I don't know this, but it may be a possible reason why we don't incorporate more of the JST edition.

Considering that it is canonized by the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS), it may be possible that is a reason... or it may be due to copy write laws.

Since you have a copy, I would place more emphasis on the canonized LDS scriptures and not so much on the JST edition.

Hey, i really appreciate your response. However, whether canonized or not, do we not beleive that joseph smith was a prophet? Also, we learned in our NT class that when elder mcconkie finally got his hands on the rlds inspired version, it was apparent that there had not been any changes.

[antispatula]

antispatula, I'd suggest you learn a little about how records are preserved, how cultures and languages shift and change over time, and how the translation process works.

If this item is truly the root of your being deeply bothered, learning about how mortals write stuff down over time should solve your problem. If your being bothered has some other source, you'll still be bothered.

Are you sure this issue is the source of your being bothered?

How does this even apply? The thing that bothers me is the fact that the actually content has been changed. In the jst, it says jesus said "if someone asks you to go with him a mile, go with him one mile," while in the kjv and bom it jesus says "go two miles". Which one did jesus actually say? That we should only do as we are asked, or should we go above and beyond?

[skippy740]

Hey, i really appreciate your response. However, whether canonized or not, do we not beleive that joseph smith was a prophet? Also, we learned in our NT class that when elder mcconkie finally got his hands on the rlds inspired version, it was apparent that there had not been any changes.

Then I suggest bringing it up in your BYU class.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I find nothing bothersome about that Joseph Smith Translation.

In my studies I have found great inspiration in many Joseph Smith Translations of different scriptures. Compare the original text of Romans chapter 4 with the below inspired translation:

2 For if Abraham were justified by the law of works, he hath to glory in himself; but not of God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[NeuroTypical]

How does this even apply? The thing that bothers me is the fact that the actually content has been changed. In the jst, it says jesus said "if someone asks you to go with him a mile, go with him one mile," while in the kjv and bom it jesus says "go two miles". Which one did jesus actually say?

This applies, because humans stink at perfectly recording important things, and it seems like you're having issues because you haven't internalized this knowledge. The short answer to your question is "we don't know which one Jesus said - and other than personal revelation, we'll never know."

Maybe this will help. Think about how scripture is made, and how, by definition, scripture is flawed and imperfect.

1. Jesus said something to people. (We can assume it was the correct thing, put the correct way, communicated clearly.)

2. People heard and understood the words (very error prone processes involving running sounds sent by the ear, through our brains, which add and subtract things, assign meaning based on our cultural understanding, and even change things into other things based on our filters, beliefs, desires, agendas, and life's baggage.

3. Someone tried to remember the words and write them down accurately. (Always a problem. Did God make the hearers perfect? Did He make the writers perfect? Doubtful.

4. Those records go on to be copied, retranslated, and updated with language changes (i.e. different English versions. In all of these processes, changes and errors creep in.

Did you believe that everything on a printed page, with chapter and verse assigned, came directly from the mouth of God to your eyes, unaltered and perfect? Too many fallible humans and the junk we carry around with us for that to happen.

Scripture tells us about this notion.

"...if there are faults they are the mistakes of men" - Intro to the BoM by Joseph Smith

"And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record." - Mormon 9:33

"And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself." - 1 Nephi 19:6

"And now I, Moroni, have written the words which were commanded me, according to my memory;" - Ether 5:1

"...wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge," - Jacob 7:26

In those last two, Moroni and Jacob start and end their respective books by basically saying "I'm doing my best here guys, work with me!"

Let's also look at the various English translations out there:

"If a soldier forces you to carry his pack one mile, carry it two miles."

"And if one of the occupation troops forces you to carry his pack one mile, carry it two miles."

"And if someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life."

"and who euer constreyneth thee a thousynde pacis, go thou with hym othir tweyne."

Depending on which English translation, you've got the notion of carried packs, or burdens, or soldiers, or occupation forces, even a lack of the notion of "mile". Depending on the translation, someone is forcing you, compelling you, demanding of you, making you, impressing you, or constraining you. Those all mean different things, which one was right?

We'll never know. We do not even have any original manuscripts for any of the books of the Bible. At best, we possibly have sixth or seventh generation copies, and most manuscripts are probably further away than that. The earliest NT manuscripts we have date between A.D. 150 and A.D. 300. That's 100-250 years after the originals.

Yes, only the JST has the notion that you should only go one mile if they demand one mile, and two if they demand two. But it's also missing the notion of soldiers or packs or servants.

Who is right? Who is wrong? It's a confusing mish-mash. antispatula, you are at the top of the roller coaster. Think about what you believe and why you believe it. As you move through these next few years of your life, prepare to learn about things that will challenge both.

[Vort]

And I'm pretty confident the Hebrews of 2000 years ago didn't use statutory miles.

[Suzie]

Hey, i am an active lds man attending byu. It has come to my attention that some discrepancies between the kjv, jst, and book of mormon, and its really bothering me. Any sincere insights would be greatly appreciated. Oddly enough, this stuff came to my attention studying out of the new testament manual for my religion class this semester.

In both the kjv and bom, it says "and whosoever shall compell thee to go a mile, go with him twain." ( matt 5:41 and 3 nephi 12:41). Yet in the jst, it reads "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him a mile; and whosoever shall compel thee to go with him twain, thou shalt go with him twain."(jst matthew 5:41).

Note that this jst change is not in the lds bible footnotes or appendix, but is included in the "full version" available online or for purchase.

I understand that the jst is rarely just a verbatim restoration of text, and that it is often to clarify or expound on doctinal ideas, but these two versions seem to contradict eachother-one says we should give what is asked, and one says we should give more. And the thing that disturbs me the most is the fact that not only does the BOM verse disagree with the jst, it agrees word for word with the kjv that is supposedly wrong. And again, its not as if the jst is simply clarifying an idea-it changes the meaning completely.

Please, please help me. I feel like i am in a very dark time. Please take 2 minutes out of your busy day to help, if you feel like you have a good answer.

I think often times we think that "going the extra mile" it is always the right thing to do under all circumstances and even though I agree that a lot of times doing more than we are expected to do can bring along great results and blessings, it can also cause the opposite effect than the one intended and I think that's what Joseph Smith tried to state when he made that change.

In my view, going the extra mile isn't always the wisest thing to do. Should we run faster than we have strength and jeopardize our health or financial stability? Should we become religious over-zealots and miss the point entirely often times leading to becoming judgmental when others do not do as much as we do in the Church?

Like any other scripture, we should also analyze it historically. What was the audience of Christ and the audience of Joseph Smith? In the time of Jesus, people like you and I were mandated by law to carry the armor (along with other things) of Roman soldiers if they wanted us to do so. It wasn't a choice you or I could make. It makes sense why would Jesus asked them to 1) fulfill the law by carrying it for one mile and then bringing along the point of doing more than we are expected. The thing is, doing more doesn't always equal doing "better".

Perhaps, some of us can really go that extra mile and be blessed for it...we have the strength to do so, we have the means and the spiritual maturity to accomplish it however, among us are also people who haven't reach that stage quite yet, they still trying to catch up a quarter or half of a mile... and that's what makes Joseph Smith change in that scripture so brilliant because it helps us to understand that ALL of us are in different parts in our spiritual journey called life.

What is better? Someone killing themselves trying to reach that second mile that seems so far away from their own personal story and terribly fail in the process because they are just not ready yet or someone who can see that one mile more clearly, more reachable and get a sense of accomplishment when they actually are able to be there?

Heavenly Father asks us to do our best, of course it doesn't mean we will slack and be satisfied with mediocrity. The best for some maybe the second mile because they are spiritually ready for that, but for others their best is simply reaching that one mile Joseph brilliantly wrote about.

[Traveler]

Please, please help me. I feel like i am in a very dark time. Please take 2 minutes out of your busy day to help, if you feel like you have a good answer.

Greetings antispatula,

It is my personal opinion that scriptures, by design, are flawed. The short reason is that scriptures are not intended to be the answers for everything but a means by which we prepare (discipline ourselves) to come to G-d (and Jesus Christ) where in is the answer to all things. Thus scriptures are not proof of G-d, Christ nor any prophet but a tool for understanding help. It is interesting to me that from the ancient world we have many original documents - with the exception of Christian Scripture. Even with modern restoration we do not have access to original manuscripts - including the Doctrine and Covenants.

My first principle to understand the Joseph Smith Version - is to understand that it was not intended to by our standard New Testament but rather a exercise both for the uneducated Prophet and the Latter-day Saints in scriptural discipline and preparation.

Consider the scriptural account of the creation. There is no evidence that any interpretation of the scriptures matches empirical reality. But creation scripture is not intended to outline the physics of creation but rather G-d's investment and sacrifice and man place as his image and likeness.

But let us deal with the particular scripture in question in the proper historical setting. When Jesus taught the principle of the extra mile Israel was under the control of the Roman empire and the draconian laws that oppressed the Jews. One of the most oppressive and hated law was that any Roman citizen, under threat of life, could while traveling, compel a Jew to drop whatever they were doing and carry a specified burden for the distance of one mile. Often this law was utilized to rob Jews of possessions of their possession that would have to be abandoned to carry the prescribed burden. Within the lifetime of the Apostles this particular law would be one of the primary engine of the Jewish revolt (74 AD) against Rome.

Rather than fight the oppressive law and their oppressive government Jesus commanded his disciples not just to comply but to also go an extra un-compelled mile carrying the burden. In essence he taught a principle that for the most part is lost to modern Christian interpretation that are not subject to such oppression.

The Traveler