Friends of Scouting

[Scovy]

Recently in our ward for three weeks strait we where drilled to donate $20 or more to Friends of Scouting during opening exercises for priesthood. I haven't nor will I ever donate to this. Too many friends have stated that none of the funds go to the local scouting groups. I wanted to stand up and ask if any the money would stay or how will it help the local YM in scouts.

Has anyone else been badgered these announcements for Friends of Scouting.

[Lakumi]

I remember in the Scouts, we felt it was best as a troop to go out and fundraise for ourselves...

We invented something called a Grocery Draw, in which we had a raffle by donation, to a giftcard for a grocery store.

Simple concept, were in the grocery store, basically standing there, telling people to have a good day or some such thing.

[skippy740]

Per the LDS Scouting handbook, it is one of the requirements for the Bishop's Counselors:

8. Conduct the annual Friends of Scouting campaign.

Friends of Scouting. The Church supports the annual Friends of Scouting drive. These funds provide financial support for the local BSA council. Stake presidents and bishops oversee the drive in their units.

(Bold emphasis added)

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scouting-handbook-2012.pdf?lang=eng

How does supporting the local council help your boys in your ward? You'll have to take a look at your local council's website to see the various services they provide on a regular basis as a non-profit organization.

I'm not telling you to donate, but we can see where the commitment and the drive is coming from, and where the funds are going.

[EarlJibbs]

We went through about a half hour testimonial about how good scouts is this past week combined with all the priesthood and Relief Society.

Now that I have a boy in Scouts, I donate more willingly. As far as where the money goes, I am not concerned at this point. I use the church resources for scouting and they pay for a lot of it if you think about it. So I don't feel bad at all contributing $20 -$50 and do not question it.

[MarginOfError]

While I think it's poor taste to set an expectation on donation, that's more of an issue with your ward's leadership than with Friends of Scouting (hereafter, FOS).

It's true that the money given to FOS does not go directly to local troops, packs, or other units. The majority of that money goes to the local council, with some of it moving up to national council. It is one of the few forums that people have to give to the BSA that is tax deductible (buying popcorn or other products-where the bulk of the money goes directly to the troop-is not tax deductible). FOS is also where the BSA picks up a lot of its big ticket donations.

But to say that these funds do not benefit the local units is disingenuous. Money raised in FOS is used to help pay administrative salaries, maintain camps, and keep costs low for camps. Consider that, at least in my area, a week of boy scout camp costs between $200 and $250. A high adventure program might cost a little bit more. By comparison, many private summer camps cost closer to $1,000 per week. Adventure Treks starts their programs at about $1,100 per week and that doesn't include transportation to the camp.

The Council also has the ability to negotiate deals with local organizations (sports clubs, outdoor groups, etc) that give new and fun experiences for youth to share with their parents. It also maintains the networks that, for example, allow boys in my troop where there is no merit badge counselor for aviation, to find a merit badge counselor for those merit badges we can't offer.

Some councils, such as my own, also run inner-city scouting programs that are highly subsidized because the members of these troops, packs, and crews live in poverty and simply can't afford the monthly camping costs and equipment costs of participation.

So while the money you donate to FOS may not go to your local troop, it does end up doing things that benefit your troop, and will do many things that benefit youth in your area.

I'll also point out that $20 is a pretty small amount to request. It takes about $180 per boy per year to keep my local council solvent (it might be less if we weren't running the inner-city programs, but I don't want that to end). So $20 keeps the lights on for a boy's scouting experience for about 40 days.

There's a lot of support that goes into your local unit that you don't see, and that costs money. A strong council is good for your local troop, and so I would encourage you to make a donation (I won't specify the size, whatever feels good to give) to FOS. You may not see or recognize how the money is being used, but I assure you that it will help create miracles.

Edited February 26, 2014 by MarginOfError

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm not a fan of the FoS generally or the bloated salaries of some of the BSA's bigwigs at the national and even council levels (the Deseret News ran an article about this a couple of years ago). But, having spent a couple years now working with 11-year-old scouts, I will concede that there's a LOT of training that has to happen for a unit to work well; that this training needs to be done by professional scouters who don't work for free; and that the LDS Church's practice of swapping out local unit leaders every couple of years dramatically increases training costs for the entire council.

So I give--some. I'll give more if/when our local council exec's salary dips below $100K/year.

[Guest]

I don't understand the lament that moneys donated to a council (whether local or national) does not benefit the unit. The Boy Scouts of America is a Charitable Organization. The entire thing works off of donations and sponsorships. The membership fee of $24 is only enough to cover insurance for all members and leaders. I don't see how it is enough to pay for the BSA network - the people that work in the office maintaining records and paying for their computers and electricity. And there's the jamborees and campgrounds and firing ranges, etc. And there's the lobbies in Congress and the lawyers to defend against lawsuits!

Now, if you're talking about ASPCA - the national council for the Humane Society, then maybe I can understand it. Because there are a lot of things the ASPCA does that I don't agree with. So, if I'm going to donate to the Humane Society I try to keep at as local as possible.

I don't feel the same way for the Boy Scouts.

[Guest]

I'm not a fan of the FoS generally or the bloated salaries of some of the BSA's bigwigs at the national and even council levels (the Deseret News ran an article about this a couple of years ago). But, having spent a couple years now working with 11-year-old scouts, I will concede that there's a LOT of training that has to happen for a unit to work well; that this training needs to be done by professional scouters who don't work for free; and that the LDS Church's practice of swapping out local unit leaders every couple of years dramatically increases training costs for the entire council.

So I give--some. I'll give more if/when our local council exec's salary dips below $100K/year.

Ahhh JAG! You're a lawyer! You know how salaries to skill works. If your exec's salary dips below $100K/year you're getting the bottom of the barrel. The people that can't find a job elsewhere.

I know this from personal experience. You go to any town in the Philippines and look at their roads. The road doesn't last 2 years before it gets pothole-ridden. You go look at the state of any government building. It is horrible. Why? Because the government pays crap. So, the Civil Engineers you get are the left-overs from private industry. The ones who are borderline college drop-out or the great ones who are just there twiddling their thumbs waiting for their visa to Europe/America.

Heck, you know it from Church experience. You can't complain about the quality of Gospel Doctrine instruction... because those people are working for free.

If you want quality workers, you have to pay them the industry value.

Edited February 26, 2014 by anatess

[pam]

Ahhh JAG! You're a lawyer! You know how salaries to skill works. If your exec's salary dips below $100K/year you're getting the bottom of the barrel. The people that can't find a job elsewhere.

I know this from personal experience. You go to any town in the Philippines and look at their roads. The road doesn't last 2 years before it gets pothole-ridden. You go look at the state of any government building. It is horrible. Why? Because the government pays crap. So, the Civil Engineers you get are the left-overs from private industry. The ones who are borderline college drop-out.

Heck, you know it from Church experience. You can't complain about the quality of Gospel Doctrine instruction... because those people are working for free.

If you want quality workers, you have to pay them the industry value.

Have you seen the roads in Utah? You can't go 2 years without them having potholes.

[Guest]

Have you seen the roads in Utah? You can't go 2 years without them having potholes.

You have snow in Utah. It requires salting. Same in Cleveland. They have a 2-year repair cycle for roads in Cleveland as a consequence of salt and snow plows. So people think the national flower of Cleveland is the blinking orange cone.

No such thing in Texas or Florida. No such thing in the Philippines.

[Just_A_Guy]

Given how big Scouting is here in Utah, I simply refuse to believe that they couldn't find a guy to run the Great Salt Lake or Utah National Parks councils for $90K per year. In this part of the country you can live very, very well on that kind of money.

I think the comparison to the LDS Church is inapposite. Like the BSA, the Church relies on volunteers at the grass-roots level. Unlike the BSA, the Church pays its corps of professional support staff very poorly by industry standards.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[MarginOfError]

I tend to agree that administrative salaries are too high, but I'm not sure that $90,000 is high enough. Some of these guys spend as much time away from their families as physicians do, and I do think that it's fair to compensate them for that. But I'd put it more in the $125,000 range--not the $200,000 range that some of them are getting.

At the same time, there may be a case for leaving total administrative pay where it is, but dropping some of that money from the council executive to the district executives. Those guys really put a lot of time in, and they get paid peanuts.

[Wingnut]

You go to any town in the Philippines and look at their roads. The road doesn't last 2 years before it gets pothole-ridden.

Psshhhh...we don't even have to wait 2 years in Cleveland.

You have snow in Utah. It requires salting. Same in Cleveland. They have a 2-year repair cycle for roads in Cleveland as a consequence of salt and snow plows. So people think the national flower of Cleveland is the blinking orange cone.

Okay, well, there we are. I will state, though, that two years isn't frequent enough.

There was actually a joke made on a local news station in the last month that there needed to be a new Winter Olympic event. It would be called the "pothole slalom," and all the athletes would train in Cleveland.

I think the comparison to the LDS Church is inapposite. Like the BSA, the Church relies on volunteers at the grass-roots level. Unlike the BSA, the Church pays its corps of professional support staff very poorly by industry standards.

I totally had to look that word up.

[Guest]

Given how big Scouting is here in Utah, I simply refuse to believe that they couldn't find a guy to run the Great Salt Lake or Utah National Parks councils for $90K per year. In this part of the country you can live very, very well on that kind of money.

I think the comparison to the LDS Church is inapposite. Like the BSA, the Church relies on volunteers at the grass-roots level. Unlike the BSA, the Church pays its corps of professional support staff very poorly by industry standards.

Finding a guy is not an issue. There are a jillion unemployed workers in the USA. Finding a guy that can do the job in the quality manner that is expected, or the BSA is used to, is another.

In my multi-national company, for example, a lot of people are making higher than the industry standards. That is because they get pay-for-performance packages - that is, a yearly raise depending on their performance. If you've worked there 10 years, you're more than likely busting the seams of the industry standard. My company doesn't believe in laying people off just to buy the cheaper college grad. They'd rather pay the high-end salary with the 10 years company-specific business knowledge and send these guys off to yearly training to keep their skills current. Our company lays off contractors. They don't lay off employees. Employees do their jobs well because they want to get those performance packages. Now, you cut their salaries off, they'll go somewhere else. There's no lack of competitors for my company. But my company is creme de la creme.

Now, my husband's company is the opposite. They go through lay-offs once every 3 years or so for "budget" reasons. Now, everybody knows, you don't go to his company to have a career even if they have pay-for-performance packages too. You go to his company as a stepping stone for the next company. So they have lots of store-manager-type executives. Employees do their jobs just enough not to get laid off sooner than necessary. And you can tell by how that company's customer service suck.

Edited February 26, 2014 by anatess

[Sharky]

We get hounded every year for several weeks "to donate whatever we feel we can spare". We are told each week what the "goal" is (apparently it's not a goal set by the local troop, rather by the officials at the scout office) & we are told each week how "short" our donations fall.

We also get a similar drill about the scouts need donations as we draw nearer to scout camp each summer.

Keep in mind ... it "Scouting" that the donations are for, NOT the young men's organization.

It irritates me & if I could I would avoid Priesthood this time of year ....

We can not outright ask for donations for the young women to help them pay for girls camp each summer, they have to do fund raisers & aren't permitted to use "church functions" or ward newsletters etc in those fund raising efforts ... but scouting does repeatedly.

In my mind, that sends a VERY strong message about ....

Edited February 26, 2014 by Sharky

[Wingnut]

The young men are supposed to have a fundraiser as well, rather than solicit donations.

[Guest]

We get hounded every year for several weeks "to donate whatever we feel we can spare". We are told each week what the "goal" is (apparently it's not a goal set by the local troop, rather by the officials at the scout office) & we are told each week who "short" our donations fall.

We also get a similar drill about the scouts need donations as we draw nearer to scout camp each summer.

Keep in mind ... it "Scouting" that the donations are for, NOT the young men's organization.

It irritates me & if I could I would avoid Priesthood this time of year ....

We can not outright ask for donations for the young women to help them pay for girls camp each summer, they have to do fund raisers & aren't permitted to use "church functions" or ward newsletters etc in those fund raising efforts ... but scouting does repeatedly.

In my mind, that sends a VERY strong message about ....

Young women are not in the Scouting program. They don't get any support from any councils. Hence, no need to fund raise for said council.

I don't get where you're going with this.

If you don't think the Scouting program is needed in the Young Men's program, that's one thing... I have 2 boys and a husband in Scouts and they do things like sell mulch in Spring and such to get money for camp because the Church has a very low budget which is barely enough to cover membership fees. There's a lot that needs to go into the Scouting program. Our Scout Troop sucks. They don't get much support from the parents or even the leaders because parents treat it like "just another church thing". You go to "real" Scout Troops you'll see where the money goes.

Edited February 26, 2014 by anatess

[Sharky]

Young women are not in the Scouting program. They don't get any support from any councils. Hence, no need to fund raise for said council.

I don't get where you're going with this.

If you don't think the Scouting program is needed in the Young Men's program, that's one thing... I have 2 boys and a husband in Scouts and they do things like sell mulch in Spring and such to get money for camp because the Church has a very low budget which is barely enough to cover membership fees. There's a lot that needs to go into the Scouting program. Our Scout Troop sucks. They don't get much support from the parents or even the leaders because parents treat it like "just another church thing". You go to "real" Scout Troops you'll see where the money goes.

I know that ... My point is that Scouting (a integral part of the LDS young men's program) can & does use church meetings & church functions etc to open ask for & obtain donations.

Yet, no other church auxiliary is permitted to do so.

It's a very strong & obvious inequality in the application of church policy. I am referring to the specific use of Church Meetings & Church Functions to ask for donations.

Out-of-Pocket Summer Camp costs for young women in our ward exceed what the parents pay for the boys to go to scout camp by 300% & much of that is actually covered by the leaders, Why?

Because each year they use "Scouting" to drum up donations to pay for the young men to go to scout camp ... While young women get just the opposite, nothing in the way of donations sought thru church meeting/functions.

Our scouts/young men don't do "projects" to raise money, they ask in Priesthood under the name of "Scouting" for Donations .... While young women's are not permitted to ask for donations in church meetings, they must earn their funding.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Sharky

[Just_A_Guy]

Finding a guy is not an issue. There are a jillion unemployed workers in the USA. Finding a guy that can do the job in the quality manner that is expected, or the BSA is used to, is another.

"The quality manner that . . . the BSA is used to" would seem to have resulted in a 11% drop in overall membership over the last decade, and a 23% drop in the number of Cub Scouts specifically (see this article). One of the reasons executives in for-profit entities get high salaries is because it is understood that if the organization doesn't perform well under their leadership, the blame will fall upon them and they will be summarily dismissed. Is that happening in the BSA?

You've got hugely dedicated people in Utah; and as I recall you've got a lower median income here relative to the rest of the country. If we aren't trying to grow the program, then I stand by my original point--you can get someone who's perfectly capable of keeping the program going on $90K or less. I submit that given the BSA's current circumstances, anything above and beyond $100K is paying for a resume, not ability. All well and good, if you're a for-profit entity. Not so good, if you're paying for those salaries out of contributions solicited from individual Mormons who really can't afford it, and/or diverting funds from other programs (Young Women's, perhaps?) which already have to make do with less than what the BSA/Young Men's program has to work with.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

I know that ... My point is that Scouting (a integral part of the LDS young men's program) can & does use church meetings & church functions etc to open ask for & obtain donations.

Yet, no other church auxiliary is permitted to do so.

It's a very strong & obvious inequality in the application of church policy. I am referring to the specific use of Church Meetings & Church Functions to ask for donations.

Out-of-Pocket Summer Camp costs for young women in our ward exceed what the parents pay for the boys to go to scout camp by 300% & much of that is actually covered by the leaders, Why?

Because each year they use "Scouting" to drum up donations to pay for the young men to go to scout camp ... While young women get just the opposite, nothing in the way of donations sought thru church meeting/functions.

Our scouts don't do "projects" to raise money, they ask in Priesthood under the name of "Scouting" for Donations .... While young women's are not permitted to ask for donations in church meetings, they must earn their funding.

It must be different in your ward then. We have Church Functions simply for stuff like Cake Auctions and Garage Sales at the Church published as a Ward Activity to raise money for Girls' Camp complete with little talks in Relief Society about the importance of attending said Activities and how they need your donations with the Young Women giving little talks about what they learned/benefitted from Girl's Camp. Leaders don't have the kind of money to cover that stuff!

The FoS thing is much less in-your-face in my ward. It's just an announcement in Priesthood (and sometimes when RS and Priesthood are combined for the hurricane season) that there's this letter going out for FoS donation and how you can use the tithing slip for it and what to put in it so they'll know it's for FoS. They only went on a special talk for it in combined RS/Priesthood a few years ago when they were trying to raise money to fight the Gay Leaders lawsuit.

They don't use FoS donations for Scout Camp. They raise the funds in Scouts or the parents pay for their own children. They don't announce those in Church even... the Scouts go door-to-door for their mulch orders. They can earn merit badges for those.

[applepansy]

Friends of Scouting is an annual fund raiser. I used to donate every year. But... with money tight and getting tighter some years we don't donate. I don't feel guilty about it.

[Sharky]

It must be different in your ward then. We have Church Functions simply for stuff like Cake Auctions and Garage Sales at the Church published as a Ward Activity to raise money for Girls' Camp complete with little talks in Relief Society about the importance of attending said Activities and how they need your donations with the Young Women giving little talks about what they learned/benefitted from Girl's Camp. Leaders don't have the kind of money to cover that stuff!

That's basically it ... under Fund Raising in the Church Handbook of Instruction, ONE (1) fund raiser per year may be authorized to pay for summer camp or buy necessary equipment. & said fund raisers should be held & conducted in a "meaningful way".

In my ward that policy seems to be applied very unequally.

In my ward, young men's get several opportunities thru the year to openly ask for donations under the name of "Scouting" or the "Scout Troop". Asking for the donations seems to be the "fund raiser".

Our young women's have to do an activity, outside of church meetings & outside of church function to raise their funds.

Our young women's leaders don't have the funds to pay out-of-pocket for the costs either ... they find a way of doing it rather then having several of the young women left out ... few families in my ward or stake can afford the costs associated with just 1 daughter, let a lone 2 or 3 .... especially after donating to all the scouting requests!

[Guest]

"The quality manner that . . . the BSA is used to" would seem to have resulted in a 11% drop in overall membership over the last decade, and a 23% drop in the number of Cub Scouts specifically (see this article). One of the reasons executives in for-profit entities get high salaries is because it is understood that if the organization doesn't perform well under their leadership, the blame will fall upon them and they will be summarily dismissed. Is that happening in the BSA?

You've got hugely dedicated people in Utah; and as I recall you've got a lower median income here relative to the rest of the country. If we aren't trying to grow the program, then I stand by my original point--you can get someone who's perfectly capable of keeping the program going on $90K or less. I submit that given the BSA's current circumstances, anything above and beyond $100K is paying for a resume, not ability. All well and good, if you're a for-profit entity. Not so good, if you're paying for those salaries out of contributions solicited from individual Mormons who really can't afford it, and/or diverting funds from other programs (Young Women's, perhaps?) which already have to make do with less than what the BSA/Young Men's program has to work with.

And of course you know that 11% drop in overall membership doesn't necessarily have a one-to-one correlation with the quality of executive leadership right? It has more to do with a cultural change.

I would like to see how many of those 11% dropped due to the Moral Principles that the BSA has insisted on keeping. Or the overall decline in American Economy. And generally, Executives don't get a paycut because profits are lower than last year. Executives get laid off. So, if you want BSA to reduce their executive salaries, then you'll have to get the existing ones laid off. And then we're going to be talking another set of complaints.

Edited February 26, 2014 by anatess

[Guest]

I just talked to my husband. Scout Leader and all that.

He told me these things:

1.) Many LDS in Utah complain about the BSA Executive Salaries because of the media attention it is getting.

2.) Executives in the BSA don't get hired as Executives from the street. They usually work their way up from Eagle Scouts. Unlike other Charities like the United Way where they can put somebody who is from another Charitable experience to top positions, BSA hire from within due to their need for people who are "career scouts". So, their CEO would have had over 30 years of experience in the BSA and would be CEO until retirement. So that, salaries start from the base pay at the bottom position and has to be raised up from there. They're not as flexible with industry standards because they don't let go of people and replace them willy-nilly because they hire from within the Scouting experience. He said, he's been working with Scouts since he was a Cub and he has over 15 years of executive experience in the private sector. He's not going to get hired for a BSA executive position.

3.) A lot of the salaries posted in media outlets are not just salaries. They include pension plans. Since there are a lot of BSA Executives who work with BSA until they retire, the pension plan output is high.

Just parroting what he said.

Edited February 26, 2014 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

And of course you know that 11% drop in overall membership doesn't necessarily have a one-to-one correlation with the quality of executive leadership right? It has more to do with a cultural change.

Sure; but that's beside the point. As I understood it, your point was that BSA needs to pay salaries that are "competitive" with what corporate America pays. But in corporate America those higher salaries come with a trade-off: it's understood that the buck stops with the executive. If you don't make the institution perform--no excuses; you're gone.

I would like to see how many of those 11% dropped due to the Moral Principles that the BSA has insisted on keeping. Or the overall decline in American Economy.

Oh, I don't disagree with you there.

And generally, Executives don't get a paycut because profits are lower than last year. Executives get laid off. So, if you want BSA to reduce their executive salaries, then you'll have to get the existing ones laid off. And then we're going to be talking another set of complaints.

The main complaint would be that BSA is acting like a for-corporation--which its apologists already concede that it's doing.

But I'm not sure BSA should act like a for-profit corporation--either in executive salaries paid, or in (lack of) job security for those executives. In a for-profit corporation you can say "hey, the CEO's only getting a couple of pennies off of every widget sold". But the BSA doesn't sell widgets; it solicits contributions from LDS ward members--thus pre-empting other worthy projects/programs that could be funded by those same dollars.

The Great Salt Lake Council's website proclaims that it currently has just shy of 32,000 adult volunteers. You're telling me that none of those 32,000 individuals could and would do the job--and do it well--for $90K per year? I just don't buy it.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Just_A_Guy