Here we go again

[Leah]

Age doesn't equal wisdom as pointed out by some of the remarks the make. Homeles people are willful sinners, judgemental statements about people with disabilities etc etc

And you aren't being the least little bit judgmental in any of YOUR views, right? Nothing at all judgmental about calling people derogatory names and asserting that your views are superior to theirs.

[Suzie]

I'll say the same thing I said in my other post. Before I die, the Church will ordain women to the priesthood. If not, the Church will gradually lose credibility, influence and eventually, relevance. The Church would rather change "doctrine" (like they have in the past) to maintain influence and power than be completely dogmatic and fundmentalist.

The thing is, let's just say for a second what you are saying is true. So far, nobody in the outside world of Mormonism seems to care too much whether or not our women hold the Priesthood.

[applepansy]

I'm officially an old ignorant bat.

Now on to the topic of this thread:

I feel sorry for the women who are fighting (yes they are fighting) to hold the Priesthood. I feel sorry for them because they don't understand what they have. If any of them are married in the temple then they don't understand they hold the Priesthood with their husbands. Men alone and Women alone are but half of the whole. Also, horse unequally yoked will go around in circles. I believe Heavenly Father gave the Priesthood to men for some of the reasons stated in this thread. I think some men would leave a lot up to the women if they didn't have a defined reason not to. I think its more than that though. Heavenly Father knows his children. He created us, men and women, to fulfill roles, to be the other half, so that the most important entity in society, The Family, would survive.

Look outside the church. Look outside all religion. The family is under attack and failing. The statistics are clear. Too many children are being born without a traditional family. Men need to feel needed and be fathers. Those who don't have the teachings of a religion don't see the need or don't think its important. Its hard to be a parent (father or mother). Why not just enjoy making babies and moving on? Men who hold the Priesthood of God (in my opinion and experience) are more likely to be the kind of stand up guys Heavenly Father meant them to be.

[Lakumi]

The thing is, let's just say for a second what you are saying is true. So far, nobody in the outside world of Mormonism seems to care too much whether or not our women hold the Priesthood.

Do you think it is a dealbreaker for investigators?

[Dravin]

How are they doing that? By expressing their opinion? So far, I don't think they are doing anything wrong and the Church certainly isn't excommunicating them or using any disciplinary action (that I am aware of) which would indicate the same sentiment.

That they aren't facing Chuch discipline simply means their actions do not warrant Church discipline. This could be because said actions are perfectly acceptable and the leadership of the Church sees nothing wrong with their actions, or it could be because said actions do not rise to a level that garners Church discipline despite the disapproval the leadership of the Church has for their actions. Or something in-between or more nuanced.

In short, that they aren't being disciplined doesn't tell us a whole lot, only that their actions don't warrant discipline.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Dravin

[Lakumi]

Look outside the church. Look outside all religion. The family is under attack and failing. The statistics are clear. Too many children are being born without a traditional family. Men need to feel needed and be fathers. Those who don't have the teachings of a religion don't see the need or don't think its important. Its hard to be a parent (father or mother). Why not just enjoy making babies and moving on? Men who hold the Priesthood of God (in my opinion and experience) are more likely to be the kind of stand up guys Heavenly Father meant them to be.

Not all unreligious families are broken and awful, just like not all religious families are fantastic and perfect.

There was no religion in my family, and my parents are great people.

Something like that is just spitting in the face of everyone who isn't part of your religion, regardless of how good they can be, or how lousy you all can be.

[Dravin]

Not all unreligious families are broken and awful, just like not all religious families are fantastic and perfect.

Good thing she didn't say that.

[Lakumi]

Good thing she didn't say that.

I know that, perhaps I could have extended that a tad more, but the opportunity will most likely come to me in due time

[Dravin]

I know that, perhaps I could have extended that a tad more, but the opportunity will most likely come to me in due time

By all appearances you are attributing the sentiment to her and then telling her it's spitting in the face of your parents to maintain such a sentiment. I eagerly await clarification when you find the time for it.

[Suzie]

That they aren't facing Chuch discipline simply means their actions do not warrant Church discipline. This could be because said actions are perfectly acceptable and the leadership of the Church sees nothing wrong with their actions, or it could be because said actions do not rise to a level that garners Church discipline despite the disapproval the leadership of the Church has for their actions. Or something in-between or more nuanced.

In short, that they aren't being disciplined doesn't tell us a whole lot, only that their actions don't warrant discipline.

That's correct. The things that are being said are just personal interpretations and assumptions.

[Meerkatarmy]

So basically women shouldn't hold the priesthood because men are too lazy to keep active with out it? Wow. Also surely that goes against agency, if you are only doing something because you are expected to do it, that turns the situation into a pressgang rather than faith

[Windseeker]

One of the things I was trying to convey in my post was put very succinctly by a good friend. This had me rolling on the floor. You would have to know her, she's a total surfer chick, just had her first child and spends most of her day trying to get her infant son on surfboard (not kidding). She posted the following on facebook.

Just learned about a group called "Ordain Women"...way to publicly tell everyone you don't understand your own religion.

[Meerkatarmy]

Ha I like it!

I don't think women will ever get ordained in the church as there is no need. I am noit putting it very well but in the 70's when the church let black men hold the priesthood that had to happen because the church was denying them their 'birth right' for want of a better word; denying someone something based on the colour is wrong, in my opinion anyway. Women aren't being discriminated against by not holding the priesthood as they hold different roles no lesser or more important. Any more than I am being discriminated against because I am too short to do the high jump but I am way good at limbo. I think people think people think equality means people are the same, they couldn't be more wrong

[Bini]

All my black friends refer to themselves as black...

And before you get on any particular soap box, please make note of dahlia's race...

That being the human race, I'd imagine...

Had to be said.

[Wingnut]

Here's the problem I would see if women held the priesthood:

Men would no longer participate and contribute. Why? Women just do it better. There would be less of a feeling of 'need' and 'belonging' and 'duty' because there are typically a LOT more women at church who could then fulfill these duties.

I think you do men a disservice here. I also think this is a problem endemic in the Church: the feminist groups complain about women being marginalized in the Church, but it's the men that get unfairly ragged on.

I am sorry but how is people choose to be mentally ill, immigrants are taking over and homeless people are willful sinner an OK thing to say?

Those may be ignorant, careless, inaccurate, and rude things to say, but suggesting that someone would "choose to be mentally ill" is pretty offensive.

Is there an official survey the Church conducted? Anyone has the data they used? (number, location, etc).

Big majority of Mormons (including women) oppose women in priesthood | Pew Research Center (I haven't read this, but I saw it referenced somewhere, so I knew it was there.)

I feel sorry for the women who are fighting (yes they are fighting) to hold the Priesthood. I feel sorry for them because they don't understand what they have. If any of them are married in the temple then they don't understand they hold the Priesthood with their husbands. Men alone and Women alone are but half of the whole. Also, horse unequally yoked will go around in circles. I believe Heavenly Father gave the Priesthood to men for some of the reasons stated in this thread. I think some men would leave a lot up to the women if they didn't have a defined reason not to. I think its more than that though. Heavenly Father knows his children. He created us, men and women, to fulfill roles, to be the other half, so that the most important entity in society, The Family, would survive.

I think many of the women in the Ordain Women group understand the whole temple/sealing/sharing thing as related to the Priesthood. I'm not saying I agree with them (I think I've made that clear, historically), but I think their perspective is this:

(1) Women may benefit from the Priesthood through their husbands, but they aren't allowed to use the Priesthood, outside of ordinance workers performing initiatories.

(2) Women only have access to this after they're sealed...to a man. Men are ordained with and permitted to use the Priesthood even if they never marry!

(3) Having access to isn't the same as actively participating.

Perhaps some of my language here is imprecise, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to convey.

[Backroads]

That being the human race, I'd imagine...

Had to be said.

I'm torn between the reply of "Fair enough, I thought as much even as I typed that" and the reply of "Oh, come on!"

[Meerkatarmy]

I do wonder if women did get ordained from the group how many would keep the priesthood after they see how much work and responsibility comes with it. Not saying women don't have responsibility in the church obviously. Which brings me to another thought I personally think if everyone could recieve priesthood it could end up being a pick and choose thing and could take away from the holynes of it. The grass is always greener on the other side.

[Bini]

I'm not so hung up on women holding the priesthood. I'm just not. I can live with the idea that some roles are better fulfilled by men and other roles better fulfilled by women. The stuff that bugs me is the "Mormon culture", which isn't doctrine, but merely long lived tradition that people have difficulty with when any changes are presented. Like, women wearing pants to church, or men wearing coloured shirts instead of white to church, or priesthood holders with beards. That stuff is annoying because none of it challenges gospel principles, just the "norm" that many Mormons are used to.

[Wingnut]

Which brings me to another thought I personally think if everyone could recieve priesthood it could end up being a pick and choose thing and could take away from the holynes of it.

I think, in some ways, it should be a "pick and choose" thing, though I'm not sure if you and I are thinking of that in the same way.

Assume that an announcement were made at General Conference in two weeks, saying that women may now be ordained to offices in the Priesthood. Will that mean that all women will be? That all women should be? I think that (considering the Pew Research study I linked to above) if such a change were to be made, that women who wished to advance in their eternal progression via the Priesthood, would meet with their bishops to discuss ordination. Those who wished to pursue their eternal progression without such a change would still be free to do so. That brings up the question, though, of whether women must be ordained in order to received temple ordinances, as men currently are required to be. But I think if this change were made, many other changes would also need to be made. Not all men might be ordained. Certainly not all women would be. And I think that men and women would still meet separately during the third hour of Sunday meetings, because Priesthood or not, men and women still have different needs, learn in different styles (and even so within the gender), and need the experience of brotherhood and sisterhood.

Just some personal thoughts.

[estradling75]

So basically women shouldn't hold the priesthood because men are too lazy to keep active with out it? Wow. Also surely that goes against agency, if you are only doing something because you are expected to do it, that turns the situation into a pressgang rather than faith

I think people have a hard time saying "I don't know." But that is the only answer we really have on why God and not called for women to be ordained. We have a lot of speculation some of which might be correct... Personally I think we can do better then trying lift women up by tearing men down. Because that just brings us all low.

[Meerkatarmy]

Genuine question does the priesthood make you more worthy or a better person in heavenly fathers eyes or is it just that these things need to be done so men are ordained to do them?

I keep shifting my opinion I can see where your coming from Wingnut if a woman didn't want priesthood she wouldn't seek it but does that equally mean not all men should be ordained that it should be something that is earned like in other churches? I am in favour of this but I am sure some one will come and shift my mind again

[estradling75]

Genuine question does the priesthood make you more worthy or a better person in heavenly fathers eyes or is it just that these things need to be done so men are ordained to do them?

That seems to run contrary to everything the church has taught on the subject (that someone is more worthy just because they have the priesthood)

The Lord's standard appears to be "How well you have been doing with what he has given you to work with"

For example the Nephites were considered 'more blessed' by the Lord. Yet several times we hear about the Lamanites being considered more worthy... Because they did better with the little they had then the Nephites were doing with theirs

[applepansy]

Not all unreligious families are broken and awful, just like not all religious families are fantastic and perfect.

There was no religion in my family, and my parents are great people.

Something like that is just spitting in the face of everyone who isn't part of your religion, regardless of how good they can be, or how lousy you all can be.

I didn't mean to imply that there aren't exceptions. Of course there are. But, the statistics show that society is failing to support The Family.

[Wingnut]

Genuine question does the priesthood make you more worthy or a better person in heavenly fathers eyes or is it just that these things need to be done so men are ordained to do them?

No. A resounding "no." As for an explanation? I don't have one. Estradling's post (quoted below this paragraph) seems to do a good job of discussing it, though, and as he (I think) said on the previous page, sometimes the best answer is simply "I don't know."

That seems to run contrary to everything the church has taught on the subject (that someone is more worthy just because they have the priesthood)

The Lord's standard appears to be "How well you have been doing with what he has given you to work with"

For example the Nephites were considered 'more blessed' by the Lord. Yet several times we hear about the Lamanites being considered more worthy... Because they did better with the little they had then the Nephites were doing with theirs

I keep shifting my opinion I can see where your coming from Wingnut if a woman didn't want priesthood she wouldn't seek it but does that equally mean not all men should be ordained that it should be something that is earned like in other churches? I am in favour of this but I am sure some one will come and shift my mind again

To some extent, the Priesthood already is something that is earned. It's not an automatic thing. Men must be worthy to hold the Priesthood. They must be living by Church standards and keeping commandments to the best of their abilities. Similar to temples, it's not a given, just because one is a member of the Church. A cursory glance, however, might demonstrate otherwise. Because it's such a quintessential element to the Church -- and really, a doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- it's something that all active men in the Church work toward and strive for. They tend to live their lives (when young) in preparation to receive the Priesthood, and (after ordination) to remain worthy of its blessings.

[Guest]

Genuine question does the priesthood make you more worthy or a better person in heavenly fathers eyes or is it just that these things need to be done so men are ordained to do them?

I keep shifting my opinion I can see where your coming from Wingnut if a woman didn't want priesthood she wouldn't seek it but does that equally mean not all men should be ordained that it should be something that is earned like in other churches? I am in favour of this but I am sure some one will come and shift my mind again

There is an intrinsic difference between males and females - not only physically but also spiritually. It is an intrinsic eternal trait carried by our eternal intelligences/consciousness.

Therefore, the Plan of Salvation is designed around gender roles. The Plan of Salvation is brought to pass through Priesthood Power. Underneath this power are certain Authorities granted to specific people. Some are conferred in Pre-Mortal life - the most important one is Jesus Christ' Authority to be our Savior and Redeemer - others are conferred in Mortal Existence. There will probably be others conferred in Post-Mortal Existence such as Authority to teach in the Spirit World.

Let us then look at the Plan of Salvation as a Journey of Progression. We start with Our Heavenly Father. Then we pass through the gate of mortal life away from our Heavenly Father. Then we pass through the gate of spiritual life back to our Heavenly Father. Our gender roles are then assigned to open and close those gates. The Woman under Priesthood Power opens the gate to mortal life. The Man under Priesthood Power opens the gate to spiritual life. Jesus Christ is Male as His role makes it possible for us to go back to our Heavenly Father once the gate to spiritual life is open by meeting the demands of Justice. But with Heavenly Father having all Power, and as perfect as Christ is, the atonement cannot be brought to pass without Mary first opening the gate for Christ to mortal life. Heavenly Father alone did not open that gate.

But, both Male and Female do not do their roles in isolation of each other. Both Male and Female work together in the entire Plan of Salvation even in their specific responsibilities of opening the gates. The woman's ordination is intrinsic to her physical mortal design. Once the gate is opened to Mortal Life made possible by the Woman - both men and women work towards the progression of that infant life through mortality until such time that the spirit is ready to pass through the gate to spiritual life made possible by the Man. The man's ordination is by spiritual qualification and given through the physical act of laying on of hands. It is not possible for Woman alone to give mortal birth to infant spirits even though she has the power over the gate. Likewise, it is not possible for Man to perform Saving Ordinances to spirits without the woman first opening the first gate.

Also, there are women, even though they have the responsibility to open the gate to mortal life, cannot exercise that power due to mortal circumstances - both by specific choices or circumstances out of their control. Likewise, there are men, even though they have the responsibility to open the gate to spiritual life, cannot exercise that power due to mortal circumstances - both by specific choices or circumstances out of their control. This does not change the roles assigned to gender. If unable, they can still make the best of their circumstances and help in the work of bringing to pass the eternal life of man.

Hope this helps.

Edited March 18, 2014 by anatess