Grace Vs. Works - Maybe Repentence = Key

[prisonchaplain]

Many here have probably participated in Grace vs. Works flame wars. Recently, I have read that some LDS scholars have started embracing a greater emphasis on the grace side of the equation. So, in reading Stephen Robison's explanation of the issue, I stumbled upon an interesting, if basic concept: faith must needs include REPENTENCE.

SEE: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/faq.php?id...table=questions

Perhaps this is our missing key? For, If you really BELIEVE in Jesus and his message, then you will REPENT of your sins, TURN from your wicked ways, and yes, proceed to OBEY Christ's commands.

We all agree on this, but get caught up in our desire to emphasize (God's grace - can't merit salvation vs. opposition to 'cheap grace' 'easy-believism,' or "fire insurance Christianity."). Perhaps if the emphasis were not on grace or works first, but upon repentence. You can't get saved until you realize you are lost. If you know you're lost, then when you are saved, you will be cognizant that things have to change. Sins have to be discarded, and the life of Christ (with its good works and obedience to commands) must be picked up.

I know there are still differences that are substantial, but I am thinking that REPENTENCE is a crucial meeting ground on this topic.

[pam]

Absolutely PC. Well said. All the good deeds in the world won't save you if there are things that need to be changed and repented of. That is first and foremost.

[susieSA]

Absolutely PC. Well said. All the good deeds in the world won't save you if there are things that need to be changed and repented of. That is first and foremost.

Diddo :)

[Guest Yediyd]

PC, I really like you!!!!

My favorite New Testiment person is Paul. ANd I LOVE what he said in Romans chapter 7.

Grace isn't a licence to sin, and works won't get us to heaven!!!!!

Jesus is the door, and I'll see you up there, PC!!!!!!

[the_jason]

This is one of those "chicken vs. egg" debates that will probably never be solved. Both grace and works are important to our salvation. However, grace exists because we are not capable of saving ourselves. No matter how much good we do, we will still fall short. It's only through the grace of our Savior that we will be saved. Therefore, if forced to choose, I'd choose grace.

[vinny15]

Many here have probably participated in Grace vs. Works flame wars. Recently, I have read that some LDS scholars have started embracing a greater emphasis on the grace side of the equation. So, in reading Stephen Robison's explanation of the issue, I stumbled upon an interesting, if basic concept: faith must needs include REPENTENCE.

SEE: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/faq.php?id...table=questions

Perhaps this is our missing key? For, If you really BELIEVE in Jesus and his message, then you will REPENT of your sins, TURN from your wicked ways, and yes, proceed to OBEY Christ's commands.

We all agree on this, but get caught up in our desire to emphasize (God's grace - can't merit salvation vs. opposition to 'cheap grace' 'easy-believism,' or "fire insurance Christianity."). Perhaps if the emphasis were not on grace or works first, but upon repentence. You can't get saved until you realize you are lost. If you know you're lost, then when you are saved, you will be cognizant that things have to change. Sins have to be discarded, and the life of Christ (with its good works and obedience to commands) must be picked up.

I know there are still differences that are substantial, but I am thinking that REPENTENCE is a crucial meeting ground on this topic.

Very nice PC. Ive always thought this and I believe that all latter day prophets and apostles would agree with you as well.

I personally am surprised you arent LDS, but it looks like your doin fine definately a god-fearing man on the right track.

Keep it up PC.

[prisonchaplain]

So, here's a follow-up question: At what point can I confidently say, "I'm saved." Or, if you prefer, "I'm converted." After the moment of repentence? After giving a public confession of faith? After baptism? After a year of faithfulness?

There's a fine line between spiritual arrogance and triumphalism and uncertainty. There is the false humility that says, "Well, I can't know for sure until I get there." Such seems to betray much faith in Christ's saving power at all. On the other hand, the bold proclammation of the unrepentent serial sinner that, "I'm saved cause I said the prayer," smacks of willful self-deception.

Can you spell out how the appropriate balance works in your own life? As for me, I would declare, after repentence that I was saved/converted. However, I also know Satan desires to trip me up, and cause me to fall away. I must guard my heart, and stay about the Father's business. So, as the cliche goes: I'm saved, I am being saved, and ultimately I will be saved.

An additional healthy check is the admonition of Scripture that we ought to judge ourselves so God won't have to. Even David pleaded with God to search his heart and see if there was anything unclean. I don't wallow in the paralysis of over-analysis, but neither do I dare to walk proudly before my God.

[Gabelma]

Maybe its false humility but I always see it as Christ's decision to make he is my judge, I cannot be a judge of myself I am either too harsh or not harsh enough- all I can do is have faith in him, trust him to help me make decsions in my life, and repent when I do wrong or pull away from him. But I am not LDS because I want to be saved, I am a Latter Day Saint because its where God wants me, and I adore him he has been such a huge part of my life since I was small . I can't help but think sometimes people become so obsessed with being saved, they forget the lifetime challenge to be close to the Saviour. I don't remember a moment of conversion - I am constantly being converted.. In the Chronicles of Narnia Aslan appears to get bigger and more glorious everytime the children meet him - but Aslan says he isn;t bigger the children are. As I go through my life my God becomes so much more, he does seem bigger and more glorious - that to me is Faith and Enduring to the End a continual growth.

I remember a priesthood blessing at the height of my illness (I have fibromyalgia), I wasn't praying, I wasn't reading my scriptures, I was having thoughts I didn't like and couldn't attend church, I was getting very angry with the people around me - basically I was sure I was never going to be close to my Saviour again - I was fully expecting the blessing to tell me off - what it actually said was that Heavenly Father was proud of me I was doing the best I could with the situation he had given me. I am not in a position to be my own judge. Maybe one day I will be able to but I am not at that stage in my conversion - there are times after a prayer though when I know I can hold my head up high - but other times I beat myself up about the things I don't do instead of remembering what I can do and what my Lord has done for me.

I guess the question of Grace vs Works (although I don't see it as a vs more Grace is as a result of Faith which is as a result of works and vice versa just see them as all part of one thing as without works faith isn't present and without faith works are nothing) is individual because ultimately its our relationship with the Saviour its what each of us is capable of.

Charley

[vinny15]

I undertand what both of you have said. I think it is a matter of simple centering. If you center your life on God/Chritst and that means in all aspects. If you hold back things lke joining the right church because of pride or what not than you havent centered yourself on christ.

Christ is there to promt us to the correct decisions and to judge after death. Hes a comfort to those who accept it. People often wonder why have I not been comforted. Well if you look you may see that you arent doing what is right. You need to make a full try with a broken heart meaning your open to anything and a contrite spirit meaning you truly want to know.

[CrimsonKairos]

Well it depends on what we mean by "saved."

To me, the ultimate goal is to return to live with God the Father in His presence, in Celestial burnings (i.e. the highest degree of glory). However, no one who is guilty of sinning can enter His presence. As the D&C says, God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Even if you've been forgiven of sins, you're simply guilty but forgiven. You're not innocent.

D&C 19 says that if we don't repent of our sins, we will personally suffer their punishment. The assumption is that once we've suffered the punishment, the sin goes away. However, we'd simply be guilty but out of debt. We wouldn't be innocent.

So what exactly is it that Christ's atonement does for me that I can't do for myself? It renews my innocence. As Isaiah says, my scarlet sins become snow white. Christ literally takes my "imperfect driving record" from my personal file, shreds it, and then photocopies his "perfect driving record" and places it in my personal file.

This change is more than just metaphorical, though. Our "spiritual record" is wiped clean, as if we'd never sinned and had stayed with Adam in Eden forever. But...Christ perfects us, literally. Provided we are willing and have voluntarily come to the table, he can change our nature into divine nature. We become the kind of being God and Christ are in terms of attributes, desires, thoughts, will, etc...

To me, this is what being "saved" means. It means Christ saves me from being a natural man. It means Christ makes me into a divine man, a son of God who's reached his full potential and become a joint-heir with Christ.

With that definition in mind, PC, I wouldn't consider myself "saved" until I'd been resurrected, judged, quickened/glorified (through Christ's grace), and let into God's presence. In short, I don't see myself as "saved" until I'm a divine man like the Man of Holiness who is my Father, until I'm sanctified.

In this life, it's unlikely that I will be rid of all traces of imperfection, sin, selfishness and the natural man. So then what am I, if I'm living the gospel and obeying as best I can and on the straight and narrow path back to God? If not saved, I'd consider myself a "work in progress." Literally, faith and works combined, and if I'm actively obeying and serving, I'm a "work" progressing towards my potential in Christ...potential that can only be reached on a glorious day down the road when I'm made perfect in Christ (metaphorically, not ontologically ).

Maybe I should tattoo that phrase across my bicep: "Work in progress." B)

Your point about repentance is awesome, PC, and I wholeheartedly support your conclusion. I've said the following phrase many times on this board, and I think it goes along with what you've said:

We are saved by grace, and we access that grace through obedience.

I agree that repentance must be an inevitable "fruit" of true faith, and repenting involves "work" and obedience.

[vinny15]

Very nice. I like all of these. They all seem to fit well and I get a good feeling about it. :)

[Traveler]

I know there are still differences that are substantial, but I am thinking that REPENTENCE is a crucial meeting ground on this topic.

My Friend Prison Chaplain: I have found that there are fewer differences in truth – but whenever one look hard and long enough they will find them. Mostly there is lack of understanding.

I have found in general that many (including LDS) fail to grasp and understand the fall. It is in the basic concept of the fall that some error. The fall is part of the “Gospel” or Good News of Christ. The error is not in finding sadness in the fall – the error is not being able to find joy. It was the doctrine of the fall that divided heaven into 3 parts – of which one part turned from G-d never to look back.

When speaking of being saved – it is the fall that makes saving necessary. It is the fall from which we are saved. It is the fall that soils and darkens our soul with entanglements of evil. When we pray, “thy will be done, thy kingdom come, on earth, as it is in heaven.” We pray a prophesy that what has already occurred in heaven and divided that society of heaven will eventually occur on earth and divide the society of earth.

I believe our differences my friend PC is in the understanding why it was G-d’s will that we fall and become desperately entangled in evil and require a divine savior and a divine sacrifice in order that man (us and those that we and G-d serves) may have a treasure in heaven that would otherwise be unattainable and meaningless. It is not just so we can be free from sin – G-d could have done that without the fall or a savior or a sacrifice for Adam and Eve so lived in Eden.

I believe the problem is that LDS, through modern revelation, see beyond the fall and the atoning sacrifice as that such things are only the beginning of what G-d’s will would have us inherit. What is unthinkable and impossible is the very treasure of eternity. A treasure linked to love, compassion and service experienced and defined in marriage and the procreation of children in partnership with G-d and the understanding of why we address him as our Father in Heaven. I think it is this link that really separates LDS from other faiths. It is this circle of divine destiny and covenant that Satan and his angles despise and want to rip out of heaven. That is the treasure they sought to destroy in heaven and now, for the same reasons, seek to spoil on earth.

No it is not repentance that divides us for we both champion that concept and there we are trusted allies for which I give much thanks.

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

It is had to discuss Grace and Works with a professional clergyman. I've never heard of a chaplain or pastor who got paid piece-work or hourly-wages, though I'm sure these thoughts and union cards have come-up somewhere. Obviously, there is a need for professional clergymen and chaplains throughout the world however.

I know this is a divergence, but I believe there can not be grace without works. The very act of admitting being saved is a form of action. A work. The then question is: is that it? I don't think professional clergy agree, or otherwise the pews would be empty. Those who claim the grace of G-d though being saved are encouraged to go to church. A work. Sing along with the other parishioners. More work. Pray. Work.

I recently attended an\ non-denominational church in Orem with a friend as an exchange of sorts. The pastor asked people to pray during the week for the local soldiers in Iraq. Work. There were opportunities to volunteer with the United Way. Work, work. The band and choir need to rehearse for a special forth-of-July meeting. Work, work, work.

What about forgiveness? Work. One must work to gain the Lord's forgiveness in order to feel forgiven (in my case: work x 200 – I’m always running my stupid mouth).

All of this is Christian Activism. Latter-day Saints are asked do this as well in their day to day lives, though we might not associate "activism" with works (the term is too closely identified with being a liberal). So, what then for a clergyman? A clergyman's entire life is a series of works. Every aspect of being a chaplain means doing nothing unless there is something attached to the faith. Even when Father Mulcahy in MASH shoots craps with Klinger or doubles as a card-shark, there is a religious underpinning to every act. Father Mulcahy is doing more than begging for forgiveness, he is serving his flock in the ways he feels he must. So the question becomes: when is service or work on behalf of your flock work-deserving-grace and not just doing one's job?

This dirty question applies to Latter-day Saints as well. So often in our society, callings and service are rewarded by intangible social advancements. We get paid for what we do in ways that make it seem like an actual exchange no different than being paid for our service. A friend of mine is a seminary-teacher at Mountain View High School. He is on salary. He says seminary teachers are expected to be "on" at all times. There is no "off" time. Everyone loves and admires the sister who has four or five callings. This love is a reward. Bill talked about the work he does on behalf of his community, he is great person and he has my admiration and envy. I hope when I’m finally finished with school I will have the time to volunteer like he does, but isn’t my admiration of Bill and other great people for their activism a type of reward? There is an earthly payoff.

When are a person's works genuine even if they are paid to be a Soldier of Chr-st regardless if the recompense is monetary or not?

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, why don't you address this idea that there is joy in the Fall, and that you see a link between it an our eternity destinies in joining our Heavenly Father in having eternal families etc. I've learned some about eternal families and the expanded LDS view of our own future glorification, but not how those teaching are linked to the Fall.

I've come to a different view of the Fall, and so find this fascinating. My sense is that Adam & Eve did not give into to curiosity, but rather joined in rebellion against God. With the knowledge of good and evil, they could be like God. If you're like God, you know longer have to depend on him.

God may have foreknew the Fall would come, but I the only joy I find is that we have been gifted with a dramatic example of our Heavenly Father's mercy and love.

The Ogre raises the interesting issue of grace/works AND rewards. The first part, imho, is actually easy--though costly. Grace allows me to serve God, because I've received "citizenship" into a kingdom I had no natural rights to. There is no amount of work I could do that would satisfy my debt to God.

Having embraced the grace, yes indeed, working for God pays well. Be it through reputation, salary, the 100X return on my gifts to God, or, to be extreme, the ultimate joy of being maytred for Christ--our Heavenly Father is no miser.

I could become paralyzed in analyzing my motives for any good I do for God. However, the simple admonistion of Scripture to seek first God's Kingdom, and allow everything else to fall into place sifts out a lot of that.

Beyond that, daily communion with God--asking Him to sift out my pride, my hunger for accolades, etc.--looking to Him for approval instead. To be real new age and modern--it truly is a spiritual journey, isn't it?

[the Ogre]

There is no amount of work I could do that would satisfy my debt to God... --it truly is a spiritual journey, isn't it?

This is the exact LDS thought. The only problem comes to an LDS concept called priestcraft. I tease my seminary teacher friend about it. Should one be paid for their service or their job as a professional clergyman? I always tell him he needs to more like the Lilies of the Field.

I mentioned once before I have had problems with military chaplains (in basic training, they told us that there were no local LDS services in New Jersey, but eventually an LDS drill sergeant found the three of us in our company and we were marched to church with the other new recruits on post [i.e. the chaplain lied about the existence of local LDS services—BTW, I have more stories like this]). They have to be there. Someone has to be available to serve the needs of soldiers and in your case inmates. It was not until LBJ that there were LDS chaplains in the military (it took a special request from the first presidency directly to LBJ and eventually a presidential order) and it was not until the current conflict in Iraq that the number of LDS chaplains proportionally matched the number of LDS servicemen (even if they never conduct the meetings and services in the serviceman's groups unless they are specifically called to by local [and often civilian] ecclesiastical leadership).

The conflict is discussed in the Book of Mormon specifically in reference to Korihor and Nehor (there are other examples however).

Being a chaplain to people who are constrained or who lack the ability to find their own church is important. I am glad you serve the people you serve, but the next issue is then the LDS ordinances that always get attached to this topic. How does one reconcile these ordinances to grace?

I’m sure you have had people tell you on this site in the past so I won’t, but this has always been a sore issue when it has been brought up in the past.

[CrimsonKairos]

Grace, faith and works are like a rowboat and two oars.

We're given a boat (grace) that we couldn't make ourselves and don't deserve. We take said boat out on a lake in pursuit of a location on the opposite side of the lake.

We have brought with us two oars (faith and works)

If you only focus on faith and think works are unnecessary, it's like paddling with just one oar. You'll only go in circles.

If you only focus on works without having faith, again, it's like using one oar and you'll go in circles.

Only when you use both oars in unison will you make any progress towards your goal, and only when we combine faith and works will we progress towards salvation.

[Dale]

LDS persons think more of salvation than just salvation from hell. They think of things like exaltation, and the Celestial kingdom. Salvation exists in the lower kingdoms.

How much works does it take in LDS belief to be saved from outer darkness? Does a failure to keep Celestial law mean you go to outer darkness? Is Celestial law breaking guilt the same kind of guilt to keep the old law. (James 2:10) Are these two kinds of law different laws?

[prisonchaplain]

The question The Ogre raises, if I understand correctly, is: How can church leaders accept pay, if grace is unmerited, and "Jesus paid the price?"

1. Since Christians churches do not charge admission, access to the gospel is never denied because funds are short.

2. Churches who employ clergy do not expect their leaders to be the primary source of grace. Rather, most converts are won by faithful members who share the goodness they have received with those in their circles of influence.

3. Most evangelical churches do not teach that ordinances are a prerequisite for conversion, so no clergyperson is necessary for one to receive grace--simply someone to explain and demonstrate the faith suffices.

4. Churches that choose to employ clergy do so because they want their leaders to be fully trained and set aside to teach, counsel and lead individuals, and the congregation.

IMHO, the New Testament church model hints at clergy leaders who were full time, and supported by the congregation. On the other hand, there is certainly no biblical mandate for such, and there are advantages to the LDS model--which forces a large % of members to accept callings to help out with congregational life.

Grace, faith and works are like a rowboat and two oars.

We're given a boat (grace) that we couldn't make ourselves and don't deserve. We take said boat out on a lake in pursuit of a location on the opposite side of the lake.

We have brought with us two oars (faith and works)

If you only focus on faith and think works are unnecessary, it's like paddling with just one oar. You'll only go in circles.

If you only focus on works without having faith, again, it's like using one oar and you'll go in circles.

Only when you use both oars in unison will you make any progress towards your goal, and only when we combine faith and works will we progress towards salvation.

Are we "saved" (converted) when we get into the boat, or when we reach the location?

Calvinists: When we get in.

Armenians: When we get in--and hopefully we don't drown on the way, and lose it.

LDS: When we get there (though I'm not nervous, because I've get the best guidance systems the Heavenly Father offers us)

[cchrissys1]

Many here have probably participated in Grace vs. Works flame wars. Recently, I have read that some LDS scholars have started embracing a greater emphasis on the grace side of the equation. So, in reading Stephen Robison's explanation of the issue, I stumbled upon an interesting, if basic concept: faith must needs include REPENTENCE.

SEE: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/faq.php?id...table=questions

Perhaps this is our missing key? For, If you really BELIEVE in Jesus and his message, then you will REPENT of your sins, TURN from your wicked ways, and yes, proceed to OBEY Christ's commands.

We all agree on this, but get caught up in our desire to emphasize (God's grace - can't merit salvation vs. opposition to 'cheap grace' 'easy-believism,' or "fire insurance Christianity."). Perhaps if the emphasis were not on grace or works first, but upon repentence. You can't get saved until you realize you are lost. If you know you're lost, then when you are saved, you will be cognizant that things have to change. Sins have to be discarded, and the life of Christ (with its good works and obedience to commands) must be picked up.

I know there are still differences that are substantial, but I am thinking that REPENTENCE is a crucial meeting ground on this topic.

for me i repented when i was babtized into this church, and the Holy Ghost actually moved in me and changed me so i no longer wanted to do alot of the sins i did before i joined the church. I had little to do with it and it gave me a testimony for myself of the authienticity of the lds church. I'm in the process of being "born of the spirit" or born agin as the other churches i went to refered to it. but in this church it really happens. It is through his grace that i am given that. and I pitch in with my faith and actions. but yes my repentance opened the door for everything.

[CrimsonKairos]

Are we "saved" (converted) when we get into the boat, or when we reach the location?

Well you're equating salvation with conversion. To me, they're different.

To modify my analogy, let's say someone tells you there's this rich guy who owns an awesome mansion on the other side of a huge-normous lake. Anyone who can get there eats as much as they want, is treated like a king, and generally has more fun and pleasure than they've ever had.

Now, if you believe this tale and get in the rowboat, I'd equate that with personal conversion. You've been changed by the promise of joys across yon lake. You're excited and invigorated. You're committed.

So you row across the lake using both oars (faith and works), and when you reach the docks and walk up the marble steps of the mansion and pass through its glittering gates, you've reached that which you sought (salvation).

What say you to that alteration, PC? Make sense? Agree? Disagree? Think I'm one of the coolest purveyors of parables and metaphor around?

[the_jason]

So, here's a follow-up question: At what point can I confidently say, "I'm saved." Or, if you prefer, "I'm converted." After the moment of repentence? After giving a public confession of faith? After baptism? After a year of faithfulness?

I don't believe you can, not in this lifetime anyway. Conversion is a process, not an event. Salvation comes after we have been proven by our words and our deeds. Our lives are nothing more than a time to be proven, so the salvation cannot come until after our life is over.

Many people believe that accepting Christ as our savior is enough to to be saved, but there is more to accepting Him than just saying "Christ is my savior." Acceptance includes obeying his commandments and striving to emulate him. Our ENTIRE lives are to be spent for this purpose, not merely just a portion of our lives.

[prisonchaplain]

What say you to that alteration, PC? Make sense? Agree? Disagree? Think I'm one of the coolest purveyors of parables and metaphor around?

But, if salvation means living forever with Jesus, then it begins at conversion.

I don't believe you can, not in this lifetime anyway. Conversion is a process, not an event. Salvation comes after we have been proven by our words and our deeds. Our lives are nothing more than a time to be proven, so the salvation cannot come until after our life is over.

Many people believe that accepting Christ as our savior is enough to to be saved, but there is more to accepting Him than just saying "Christ is my savior." Acceptance includes obeying his commandments and striving to emulate him. Our ENTIRE lives are to be spent for this purpose, not merely just a portion of our lives.

I know that many LDS find it sad that the rest of us have not embraced and enjoyed the Latter-Day truths. Likewise, many evangelicals are dismayed that some who follow Jesus do not journey with assurance about their relationship with our LORD, nor about their ultimate destiny. My confidence is not in myself. It's "Christ in me--the hope of glory!"

To say, "I'm saved!" is not a denial of my responsiblity to live for the LORD, nor an abdication of my need to produce fruit--100-fold, if possible. Rather, it is a certainty that what God has started in me, He will finish. I continue to guard my heart, and I continue to struggle daily to work out the salvation that is in me. But, I have it. It is mine, thanks to the shed blood of Jesus.

[CrimsonKairos]

PC, this whole discussion strikes me as a semantic exercise.

I certainly believe that if I've repented of my sins, do my best to live God's will, and love those around me, I can have confidence in my eternal fate due to Christ's promises and grace.

Maybe this will be an interesting tidbit for you:

To feel and know is testimony.

To feel and know and do is conversion.

I guess I see the words "saved" and "salvation" as slightly different. At any point when I've repented and am "right" with God, I'm "saved." However, I won't acquire "salvation" until after Judgment in the next life. Make sense? Confusing? Heretical?

[the_jason]

I know that many LDS find it sad that the rest of us have not embraced and enjoyed the Latter-Day truths.

I never mentioned once that Latter-day Saints will be the only ones who are saved. My point is simply that conversion takes a lifetime and salvation cannot be attained until a person's life either ends or is perfected, the latter of which cannot take place in this life. I'm grateful for your view on salvation. I only wish the rest of the world shared the same.

[CrimsonKairos]

...salvation cannot be attained until a person's life either ends or is perfected, the latter of which cannot take place in this life.

I don't know about that last part. Having your calling and election made sure is pretty much attaining salvation in this life (though it happens so rarely I don't mention it often). It occurs a few times in the Book of Mormon (where the Lord tells one of the prophets, "Thou hast eternal life...").