Does Christ know the exact time when He will return?

[durangout]

Several years ago I became interested in ancient calendar while studying the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Anciently calendars were very important and involved much more than just the date.  Ancient calendars were used to determine who would officiate as a priest in the temple.  For example the date Zechariah was to be in the holy of the temple was determined by the ancient Hebrew calendar.   The significance of the birth of John the Baptist as well as the Messiah was coded into the ancient Hebrew calendar.  So are many other things that come from the ancient Hebrew calendar - such as the six gates to heaven through which the sun passes twice each year.  Though there were solar events tied to the calendar there were also lunar events as well. 

 

One of the most important events of the ancient Hebrew calendar was the beginning of the New Year.  This was also part of determining passover and other critical religious holy celebrations.  The first day of the new year was always a Sunday.  It was believed that this day had to correspond with the first or beginning of creation.  But the first day was determined the the first Sunday following the first new moon following the vernal equinox.   This method is still employed today to determine both passover and Easter.  Easter is interesting because it draws upon a number of ancient pagan calendars.  But the Hebrew calendar required that two expert witnesses must testify before a judge that they had observed the new moon as well as the vernal equinox.  Once the witnesses were made fires would be lit on hill sides on a Saturday night to signal or give the sign that the next day (Sunday) would begin the new year.  Until the sign (fire on a hill) was given the celebrations of the new year - that included a special feast - could not occur. 

 

There were problem when storms would move in at the end of the calendar year and obstruct the view of the moon and sun preventing the observations necessary.  So there was a saying concerning the Hebrew calendar when the question was asked when the feast of the new year would be.  The answer was in essence similar to a current saying of heaven only knows.  This is not that the sighs could not be observed but just that it was believed that G-d was in control of such thing and that G-d would bring such things about according to his plan - which may not always be understood by mankind.   Now as I was saying when storm brought clouds that would hide the sun and moon there was another saying that no man knew the hour or the day that the sign would be given - not even that angles of heaven but G-d only.  But this saying is translated literally in scripture even though Jesus was quoting a familiar ancient saying.  This is because the ancient experts were smart enough to figure out well in advance when the new year should be - but still could not testify until the proper events were observed.

 

It is my understand from studying ancient calendars that the true prophets of G-d as well as many of his saints will know and understand when the time draws near.  I believe they will know the hour and the day from understanding the prophesies and the signs that always testify of G-d and his workings.  That it is a misinterpretation of an ancient familiar saying that has confused many in not realizing that G-d does indeed reveal his works and plans to man in advance.  But sadly man is blinded by many things in the world that confuse the things of G-d.

 

I have said before that I am convinced that many will be surprised by how soon Jesus will come again.  As saints of the last days we should understand that the time is drawing near.  Not because I am saying these things but because of the many signs that are being fulfilled.   I am very sure that I personally will know the hour and the day at least 3 days before he come again.  And my saying 3 days should be a most interesting clue to anyone that reads the prophesies concerning the last days before Jesus appears again and shows himself as the king of his covenant peoples.

First, to answer the OP:  Yes; w/o a doubt He knows the exact time when he will return.  IMO it is byond reason to think that the Creator of the universe and the Author of our salvation would not know such a thing.

 

OK; now onto a couple of quesitons about your post Traveler:

 

-   You are correct, of course, when you state that "no man knoweth the day nor the hour..." is a figure of speach and is not be taken literally. There are many such examples in the scriptures in which an idiom or figure of speach is taken literally and the true meaning is missed.  For example, Eve was created from Adam's rib--not litearlly but the idiom / expression teaches the idea that they were equals.  There are many other examples but so I don't derail the thread I'll skip other examples.  A question however is I thought that it was the Feast of the Trumpets that was announced by the the witnesses that you desccribed above not the New Year as you seem to indicate.  Maybe I misunderstood you?  Thanks for any calrificaiton.

 

-  My second quesiton is about your statement that you will know exactly 3 days before He returns.  Are you referring to the event described in Rev 11?

 

Thanks.

Edited May 18, 2015 by durangout

[Average Joe]

I know that we've always learned that no one knows the time of His return but the father.  But does Christ know when he will return?

 

 

I have always believed there was wiggle room in the timeline of the second coming. Abraham bargained to save Gomorrah according to the number of righteous found. In the BoM a city had been spared because of the prayers of the righteous. Once the wicked slew the righteous time was automatically up. Hezekiah had his life extended. The sun was made to stand still so Joshua could win a battle. The problem for the wicked is at some point the Father gets to say "Enough." despite the pleading prayers of the saints and the intervention / mediation on our behalf by Christ.  

 

I believe Christ was given agency on the cross to chose the precise moment of his death in order to become our mediator with the Father. I believe the Father will use his agency to decide when enough is enough before the millennium just like when the war in Heaven occurred and that Christ will carry out the Father's will just as he has submitted his will to the Father's in all things.

 

But that's just my opinion. 

Edited May 17, 2015 by Average Joe

[Traveler]

First, to answer the OP:  Yes; w/o a doubt He knows the exact time when he will return.  IMO it is byond reason to think that the Creator of the universe and the Author of our salvation would not know such a thing.

 

OK; now onto a couple of quesitons about your post Traveler:

 

-   You are correct, of course, when you state that "no man knoweth the day nor the hour..." is a figure of speach and is not be taken literally. There are many such examples in the scriptures in which an idiom or figure of speach is taken literally and the true meaning is missed.  For example, Eve was created from Adam's rib--not litearlly but the idiom / expression teaches the idea that they were equals.  There are many other examples but so I don't derail the thread I'll skip other examples.  A question however is I thought that it was the Feast of the Trumpets that was announced by the the witnesses that you desccribed above not the New Year as you seem to indicate.  Maybe I misunderstood you?  Thanks for any calrificaiton.

 

-  My second quesiton is about your statement that you will know exactly 3 days before He returns.  Are you referring to the event described in Rev 11?

 

Thanks.

 

As for question #1 - I am sorry but my information came from a discussion with a Jewish Rabi and reference notes I have made to the Enoch calendar (which appears to be the calendar used by Christ because of his celebration of the Passover on Thursday) - we are currently remodeling and my notes and information are not currently accessible.

 

In answer to your second question - yes.  However, the Jews (as well as the Romans) only understood integer (without negative numbers or zero) number mathematics.  The reference to a half day likely does not mean the same thing as it would to our culture that employs real numbers in our culture.

 

I have always believed there was wiggle room in the timeline of the second coming. Abraham bargained to save Gomorrah according to the number of righteous found. In the BoM a city had been spared because of the prayers of the righteous. Once the wicked slew the righteous time was automatically up. Hezekiah had his life extended. The sun was made to stand still so Joshua could win a battle. The problem for the wicked is at some point the Father gets to say "Enough." despite the pleading prayers of the saints and the intervention / mediation on our behalf by Christ.  

 

I believe Christ was given agency on the cross to chose the precise moment of his death in order to become our mediator with the Father. I believe the Father will use his agency to decide when enough is enough before the millennium just like when the war in Heaven occurred and that Christ will carry out the Father's will just as he has submitted his will to the Father's in all things.

 

But that's just my opinion. 

 

I find your opinion quite interesting but I am of the opinion that many things in this life were a determination of the exercise of our agency in the pre-existence and are not the same level of choice many think we have during this mortal probation.

[Vort]

In answer to your second question - yes.  However, the Jews (as well as the Romans) only understood integer (without negative numbers or zero) number mathematics.  The reference to a half day likely does not mean the same thing as it would to our culture that employs real numbers in our culture.

 

I have nothing to add to the discussion per se; just commenting on this specific thing.

 

The idea of "half", and in general the idea of fractional amounts, are prehistoric and common to many, probably most, cultures. It does not take a mathematically sophisticated understanding of numeric manipulation to understand that two halves make a whole, for example. I would guess the ancient Hebrews would have understood such things perfectly well, even without a place-holding decimal system or the benefit of algebra, negative numbers, or zero-based counting.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread before posting.

 

Read here: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=cut+short+in+righteousness&x=-1142&y=-362

 

And here: "It is the privilege of every Elder to speak of the things of God; and could we all come together with one heart and one mind in perfect faith the veil might as well be rent today as next week, or any other time. …" (Joseph Smith - Teachings, p9 - Quoted in: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1971/04/the-lords-people-receive-revelation?lang=eng )

 

No, Christ does not know the time of His own coming because it's yet to be determined.

The way I understand these revelations is that the timing of the Lord's return is up to us. Righteousness will hasten it, wickedness will delay it.

Edited May 19, 2015 by puf_the_majic_dragon

[hagoth]

In answer to your second question - yes. 

To which portion of Revelation 11 are you referring?

 

Are you referring to this?

[durangout]

To which portion of Revelation 11 are you referring?

 

Are you referring to this?

 

To which portion of Revelation 11 are you referring?

 

Are you referring to this?

Yes; that's what Traveler referred to.

 

Personally that chapter in Rev I have found to be the most enegmatic chapter of the entire book.  The more I study it, the less I think it means what was inferred in the post that brought it up.  That meaning I understand is the predominate interpretation, nevertheless there is much more to it than that.

 

Here is a list of verses that give additional direct insight to that chapter:

 

Great City” = Rev 17:18, 14:8

 

1 Cor 6:19

 Eph 2: 19-22

 1 Peter 2: 5-6

 

Zech 4:1-14

Isa 51:19-21, 52  (2Ne 8:17-25)

Ezk 37

3 Ne 21:24-26

Isa 11:11-13

Jacob 5 / Rom 11

Jer 11:16

Isa 44:1-4

Orson Hyde Dedicatory Prayer

Rev 1:12

D&C 77:15

Dan 12: 5-7

Isa 19:18-22

Dan 12:2

 

It's quite a puzzle.  I have all the pieces but just haven't put it all together yet. 

[NightSG]

The idea of "half", and in general the idea of fractional amounts, are prehistoric and common to many, probably most, cultures. It does not take a mathematically sophisticated understanding of numeric manipulation to understand that two halves make a whole, for example. I would guess the ancient Hebrews would have understood such things perfectly well, even without a place-holding decimal system or the benefit of algebra, negative numbers, or zero-based counting.

 

Right; I've often wondered how such concepts were expressed, but I just can't imagine that a Roman thought an apple ceased to exist after one cut it in half, or that they were unable to express the idea of not having any of something.  They just made lousy programmers since their routines couldn't exit without errors.

[Traveler]

 

The idea of "half", and in general the idea of fractional amounts, are prehistoric and common to many, probably most, cultures. It does not take a mathematically sophisticated understanding of numeric manipulation to understand that two halves make a whole, for example. I would guess the ancient Hebrews would have understood such things perfectly well, even without a place-holding decimal system or the benefit of algebra, negative numbers, or zero-based counting.

 

Right; I've often wondered how such concepts were expressed, but I just can't imagine that a Roman thought an apple ceased to exist after one cut it in half, or that they were unable to express the idea of not having any of something.  They just made lousy programmers since their routines couldn't exit without errors.

 

One good example is how the Jews and Romans counted the number of days Jesus was in the tomb.  Jesus was placed in the tomb Friday evening before sun down and arose at sun rise Sunday.  This is not much more than one and one half days by our modern way of counting.  If "two halves make a whole" as Vort suggests then it would have been said that Jesus was in the tomb for two days - not three.  Partial days are counted as a day with no fraction of a day considered in the total.  In essence each partial day is counted as a day.

 

It is my personal speculation that the half day referenced in Revelation is an indication that the events spoken of would take place at night rather than during the day.  Others may have different opinions - and I may disagree with such opinions.  Not as some think, because I believe that I am right but because I have already consider such possibility and eliminated it as the end all answer - and would like to explorer broader possibilities and expand the ground I have already covered.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Traveler

[Vort]

One good example is how the Jews and Romans counted the number of days Jesus was in the tomb.  Jesus was placed in the tomb Friday evening before sun down and arose at sun rise Sunday.  This is not much more than one and one half days by our modern way of counting.  If "two halves make a whole" as Vort suggests then it would have been said that Jesus was in the tomb for two days - not three.  Partial days are counted as a day with no fraction of a day considered in the total.  In essence each partial day is counted as a day.

 

Perhaps. Even if this is granted, however, this has little to do with mathematical sophistication. It is a matter of how different cultures view time and time periods, not unlike how all Chinese children born during a given year are called "a year old" at the beginning of the next year, whether they were born the day before or 365 days before.

 

(I have heard arguments that place Jesus' body in the tomb for a full 72 hours, so I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea that Jesus was in the tomb for far longer than 30-36 hours, but that's beside the point.)

[Crypto]

hmm, I seem to count fractions of a day as a day...unless it confuses people and I have to clarify, tell them something along the lines "Well I left at lunch time"

Interesting stuff.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Crypto

[Average Joe]

As for question #1 - I am sorry but my information came from a discussion with a Jewish Rabi and reference notes I have made to the Enoch calendar (which appears to be the calendar used by Christ because of his celebration of the Passover on Thursday) - we are currently remodeling and my notes and information are not currently accessible.

 

In answer to your second question - yes.  However, the Jews (as well as the Romans) only understood integer (without negative numbers or zero) number mathematics.  The reference to a half day likely does not mean the same thing as it would to our culture that employs real numbers in our culture.

 

 

I find your opinion quite interesting but I am of the opinion that many things in this life were a determination of the exercise of our agency in the pre-existence and are not the same level of choice many think we have during this mortal probation.

 

Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? - Isaiah 40:21

 

Consider 2^nd Chronicles 18:18-21

 

Again he [the prophet Micaiah] said [to to the kings Jehoshaphat and Ahaz], Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left [righteous and wicked spirits in the pre-existence]. And the Lord said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith?  And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

 

Notice the 3^rd spirit mentioned is evil = 1/3 of host of heaven were evil. So not only did the righteous make covenants in pre-mortality concerning the second estate, so did the wicked spirits.  As you said, “many things in this life were a determination of the exercise of our agency in the pre-existence and are not the same level of choice many think we have during this mortal probation.”

 

 

God is omniscient

 

 

And yet, Jesus would say to the Jews in the meridian of time:

 

“Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day...” Joseph Smith Matthew 1:17

 

Would he tell them to pray if it was useless?

 

Yet what is going on in mortality? Consider Abraham 3:22-28.

 

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

 

And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

 

And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

 

And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

 

So we have 1/3 of the host of heaven that didn't keep their first estate but covenanted to perform certain temptations on mortals. We have the noble and great ones who were “chosen” in God before they were born, who would be rulers (spiritually) and give guidance and support to those mortals to be tested.

 

Now this third group who would be “proven” have a promise:

 

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. – 1 Cor. 10:13

 

Now if this group has no hope of making the choices which bring celestial life then agency has no meaning. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Average Joe