Progression: Smarter, Not Harder

[james12]

James, you ask a question and when given the answer you pass judgment on the giver of the answer.

You expect a one liner - like an EASY one-size-fits-all answer. There is none. CHOOSE THE RIGHT. Every second of every minute of every hour. Repent when you fail. If you think that is condescending then you go and choose what you think is better. Don't bother pointing it out to TFP... because, pointing out his sins means you already know the answer. Every single day especially every single Sunday, somebody is teaching you what is RIGHT. But, none of that matters... NONE. Unless you humble yourself on your knees and have the Holy Spirit manifest that truth of what is right to you.

Hi Anatess,

I have thoughts on every question I ask. That does not mean I know the answer. However, I have learned for myself that shear force of will brings little if any progress. I am curious as to what others have found and hoped to share my thoughts.

[james12]

None of this changes one bit what "the right way" is. Even if your severe judgment of me is 100% accurate, my weaknesses are irrelevant to what that way is.

 

The way is Jesus. Jesus taught to keep His commandments. The implication (which is accurate) that keeping them with an unwilling heart or only going through the letter without the right spirit* is insufficient doesn't mean that having the right spirit and a willing heart changes what we are to do. We are still to keep the commandments. They are the way as given by Jesus.

 

Your whole reply is a pretty big non-sequitur.

 

* I might add that supposedly keeping the commandments with an unwilling heart and the wrong spirit is not actually keeping them at all, as part of the commandments include a willing heart and having the proper spirit. So neener.

Actually, Jesus broke the commandments all the time. In fact, this was the continued complaint of the Sadducees and Pharisees against him. Now, of course, we say that the commandments he broke were superfluous. I wonder how many unnecessary commandments we keep?

 

My comment was not aimed at your "weakness" as you put it. Rather it was to show how attitude can trump words and actions.

Edited April 21, 2015 by james12

[Guest]

Actually, Jesus broke the commandments all the time. In fact, this was the continued complaint of the Sadducees and Pharisees against him. Now, of course, we say that the commandments he broke were superfluous. I wonder how many unnecessary commandments we keep?

 

My comment was not aimed at your "weakness" as you put it. Rather it was to show how attitude can trump words and actions.

Jesus did not break any commandments. None. He veered off tradition but those are not commandments. Think of that word - commandments - root word, command... understood to be from God. If he would have broken a single commandment no matter how trivial he would have sinned. And that just isn't the case.

[james12]

Jesus did not break any commandments. None. He veered off tradition but those are not commandments. Think of that word - commandments - root word, command... understood to be from God. If he would have broken a single commandment no matter how trivial he would have sinned. And that just isn't the case.

My concern is not whether Christ was perfect. Of course he was. I am more concerned about progression. And frankly, saying "keep the commandments" does little to help someone who has grown up in the LDS church their whole life. Such a statement is beat into our heads from the time we are born. For a sincere follower there is no confusion about the need to keep the commandments. The confusion comes in how to apply that teaching and more lists of "do's" does not help.

[Guest]

My concern is not whether Christ was perfect. Of course he was. I am more concerned about progression. And frankly, saying "keep the commandments" does little to help someone who has grown up in the LDS church their whole life. Such a statement is beat into our heads from the time we are born. For a sincere follower there is no confusion about the need to keep the commandments. The confusion comes in how to apply that teaching and more lists of "do's" does not help.

I don't understand how "keep the commandments" and a list of "do's" become confusing. It only becomes confusing if you have no faith in the counsel of prophets. So, if this is the case, then the teaching is back to square 1 - how to develop Faith.

What can be confusing is when you are left to govern yourself. But then, that can be more confusing if you are not spiritually in tune with the will of God because you are distracted by worldly pursuits. So, back to the basics again - get spiritually in tune by prayer, scripture study, communion with the saints...

I don't really know what you're asking. It sounds like you are trying to make this more complicated when Christ's gospel is supposed to bring Light. There's no hidden formula, magical chute and ladders, pass go and collect 200 dollars, etc... the teaching in Primary is the same teaching in Adult Sunday School. It is what you need to hold on to the iron rod.

[The Folk Prophet]

Actually, Jesus broke the commandments all the time. 

 

This is false, unless you're re-defining the meaning of "the commandments" to mean something other than what it commonly means when we say "keep the commandments".

 

I wonder how many unnecessary commandments we keep?

 

I am honestly curious. Do you really believe that God gives unnecessary commandments that we need not keep? If so, which ones?

 

My comment was not aimed at your "weakness" as you put it. Rather it was to show how attitude can trump words and actions.

 

Your comment was aimed to criticize my approach in order to sustain your own. And, once again, my so-called weakness (which I, by the way, I do not consider your accusation legitimate) is entirely irrelevant. And, as I pointed out, and you seem to be ignoring, is a non-sequitur point.

 

And frankly, saying "keep the commandments" does little to help someone who has grown up in the LDS church their whole life. 

 

I would ask this theoretical LDS-for-lifer sincere questions concerning their levels of service, missionary efforts day to day, scripture study, etc. One who believes that the concept of keeping the commandments does little to help, it seems to me, has never successfully actually kept them -- fulfilled such commandments as feasting upon the words of Christ, feeding His sheep, magnified their callings, and a myriad of other such things that bring peace, growth, and spirituality into our lives in greater abundance. The very idea that one can legitimately feast upon the scripture and have it be no help is a bit nonsensical.

 

You seem to be under the impression that keeping the commandments is constrained to a 10% tithing, attending church every week, and generally avoiding the no-nos such as the word of wisdom and chastity issues. This is ingenuous at best, but more likely disingenuous.

 

Seriously. You're asking for how to progress. The answer is in prayer, scripture study, service, etc. I cannot imagine how you feel comfortable writing these things off as some sort of lesser method. The way is given, clearly, again and again, in scripture, in conference, in church lessons, etc. It is not, as anatess has stated, complicated. It is simply a matter of commitment and choice. Go and do.

Edited April 21, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[james12]

Anatess/Folk Prophet, I see this conversation will not lead to understanding and does not carry the right spirit. Sorry for any words of mine that contributed to that feeling.

[Guest]

Anatess/Folk Prophet, I see this conversation will not lead to understanding and does not carry the right spirit. Sorry for any words of mine that contributed to that feeling.

I didn't feel the discussion was not in the right Spirit. And I sure didn't write my post under the wrong Spirit. So, I'm again at a loss as to what you're saying.

[The Folk Prophet]

Edit:

 

I want to publicly apologize to James12 and I'm removing the bulk of this snotty post and only leaving the scriptures. I was a bit oversensitive the other day. I'm sorry.

 

_____

 

1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

 

D&C 59:21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

 

D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

 

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

 

D&C 130:21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

 

D&C 105:6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

 

Abraham 3:25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Etc...

Edited April 22, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Anddenex]

So you do acknowledge there is a right way to progress. I don't see this as significantly different from what I mean when I say the "smart" way. The "smart" way is the "right" way. There is perhaps a difference of opinion when I contrast harder with smarter. It appears you believe the right way is also the hard way. So, I would ask what is the right way? And what makes it hard? 

 

What is the right way? -- 2 Nephi 25: 28-29.

 

What makes it hard? -- D&C 121: 37-40. 

- We gratify our pride

- Lust for power

- Lust for praise

- Cover our sins (pride) and set ourselves as a standard rather than God 

- 1 Nephi 8, vain ambitions

- The desire for self instead of "I seek not mine own will, but the will of him who sent me."  Or "I can of my own self do nothing." -- Self-preservation.

- The lack of knowledge

- The arm of flesh is greater than the arm of intelligence/glory

- Forgetfulness

- Cunning craftiness of men (Look at all the sophistry used to discredit Joseph Smith.  Look at all the sophistry used to discredit all of God's prophets since the beginning.  As they treated Christ they treat his servants)

- Fear of being, ridiculed, beaten, hated, being told one is intolerant by the intolerant.

 

I think this suffices for now.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think Alma 37 helps out with the idea of progression as well. Quoting sections below, with emphasis added:

 

O remember, remember, my son Helaman, how strict are the commandments of God

 

And now behold, I tell you by the spirit of prophecy, that if ye transgress the commandments of God, behold, these things which are sacred shall be taken away from you by the power of God, and ye shall be delivered up unto Satan, that he may sift you as chaff before the wind.

 

But if ye keep the commandments of God, and do with these things which are sacred according to that which the Lord doth command you, (for you must appeal unto the Lord for all things whatsoever ye must do with them) behold, no power of earth or hell can take them from you, for God is powerful to the fulfilling of all his words.

 

Therefore I command you...that ye be diligent in fulfilling all my words, and that ye be diligent in keeping the commandments of God as they are written.

 

Preach unto them repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ; teach them to humble themselves and to be meek and lowly in heart; teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Teach them to never be weary of good works, but to be meek and lowly in heart; for such shall find rest to their souls.

 

O, remember, my son, and learn wisdom in thy youth; yea, learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God.

 

Yea, and cry unto God for all thy support; yea, let all thy doings be unto the Lord, and whithersoever thou goest let it be in the Lord; yea, let all thy thoughts be directed unto the Lord; yea, let the affections of thy heart be placed upon the Lord forever.

 

Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good; yea, when thou liest down at night lie down unto the Lord, that he may watch over you in your sleep; and when thou risest in the morning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God; and if ye do these things, ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

 

And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the thing which our fathers call a ball, or director—or our fathers called it Liahona, which is, being interpreted, a compass; and the Lord prepared it.

 

And it did work for them according to their faith in God; therefore, if they had faith to believe that God could cause that those spindles should point the way they should go, behold, it was done; therefore they had this miracle, and also many other miracles wrought by the power of God, day by day.

 

Nevertheless, because those miracles were worked by small means it did show unto them marvelous works. They were slothful, and forgot to exercise their faith and diligence and then those marvelous works ceased, and they did not progress in their journey;

 

Therefore, they tarried in the wilderness, or did not travel a direct course, and were afflicted with hunger and thirst, because of their transgressions.

 

And now, my son, I would that ye should understand that these things are not without a shadow; for as our fathers were slothful to give heed to this compass (now these things were temporal) they did not prosper; even so it is with things which are spiritual.

 

For behold, it is as easy to give heed to the word of Christ, which will point to you a straight course to eternal bliss

 

O my son, do not let us be slothful because of the easiness of the way; for so was it with our fathers; for so was it prepared for them, that if they would look they might live; even so it is with us. The way is prepared, and if we will look we may live forever.

 

see that ye take care of these sacred things, yea, see that ye look to God and live

[Finrock]

I'm...not...sure...how...what...huh...  Are you seriously asking this?

 

Let's see. Faith. Repentance. Baptism and The Gift of the Holy Ghost. Endure to the End. Keep the commandments. Priesthood for men. Temple ordinances. Serve. Fulfill callings with honor. Read/study scriptures. Pray. Fast. Pay tithing. Faith. Hope. Charity. Long-suffering. Patience. Humility. Peace-making. Honesty. Honor thy father and mother. Don't commit adultery. Don't look upon someone to lust after them. Do as Jesus taught. Follow Him. Feed His sheep. Keep His commandments.

 

Should I keep going?

 

Oh...wait. I don't need to. These things are all plainly taught in the scriptures, at conference, in church... And, of course, you already know all of this. So why are you asking me what the right way is?

 

I use to believe that the right way was doing all of those things, etc. I felt that if I was active at church, did my home teaching, was friends with the bishop, went to Church every Sunday, had the priesthood, went to the temple, had family home evening, prayed each morning and night, etc., that I was doing the right things and this is what it meant to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. I finally was compelled to learn a different way, the right way, when I acknowledged to myself that I wasn't happy, that I didn't feel at peace, and that I didn't believe or even understand the promise that Jesus Christ made when He said that His yoke was easy and His burden was light. I had no idea what that meant.

 

No matter how hard I worked and tried to do those things, I continued to believe and feel that me, myself at the core, was bad, worthless, evil, etc. I have since learned that God does indeed love me. I have learned that the standard is perfection and therefore we are all doomed to fail without a Savior. Knowing that the standard is perfection and realizing it fully has surprisingly started to relieve my burden. Here was my reasoning. If the standard is perfection then God set us up to fail and He knew it. But, this doesn't make sense because God is good. Therefore, He must have put in to place something that will make up for our inability to be perfect. I have finally realized that once I have had my heart changed and I have been baptized by fire, I don't need to stress about being perfect or even with screwing up. God knows that I will fail. He knows I'm not going to accomplish all of those things on that list. If I try, I am relying on my own strength and my own power and I KNOW this will lead to misery and hell.

 

Inside each of us is a spark of divinity. Inside of us is a spirit that is clean and pure and at one with God. At some point in our journey we need to recognize this truth and latch on to it with all of our hearts. When we do we will see that God is and has been speaking to us and telling us what we need to do each day in order for us to progress. Progression is a personal journey and God will instruct and guide each person based on what they need and desire in order to become perfected. Each person's trials and circumstances will be different and therefore Jesus Christ has promised to work with the individual. As we become more intuned with the Spirit we will find that our lists of tasks and do's and don'ts aren't what we thought they were.

 

There is nothing more pleasing than knowing that what you are doing is precisely what God wants you to do at this moment. When you have this assurance then it becomes easy and it is a joy to accomplish even the most difficult tasks or commandments.

 

When we enter the way through baptism we become apprentices to the Master Jesus Christ. As a humble apprentice I will be in an environment where nothing that I do can cause real or permanent damage. I can experiment, make mistakes, and my Master will not be angry with me, scold me, or punish me. Instead, He will instruct me, lead me, guide me, walk beside me, and help me along the way. As the Master, Jesus bears the burden of responsibility. He bears the burden of my sins, my pains, my sorrows. But, until I believe this and accept this then it is as a gift that is given but which is not received or accepted and so I can't benefit or rejoice in the gift and neither can the person who gives the gift rejoice in it.

 

-Finrock

[The Folk Prophet]

Finrock - There is a distinct difference between Christ's willingness to forgive those who repent and His just being okay with mistakes.

 

Regardless, you're talking about being at peace as compared to the standards set. The fact that we may carry psychologically instability on the matter cannot negate God's promise. If we obey, He will reward us with His promise for obedience, and that promise is eternal life. The fact that you didn't feel happy or at peace doing so doesn't have any bearing on God's word, which He has given and will not go back on. He is bound when we do what he says.

[Finrock]

Finrock - There is a distinct difference between Christ's willingness to forgive those who repent and His just being okay with mistakes.

 

You are right. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

 

God said that those who are meek and humble and become as little children will inherit the kingdom of God. When we enter in to the way through baptism by water and by fire, we do so because we are humble, meek, submissive, and teachable. These are all signs of your conversion. In other words, you can know that you have been converted and have entered in by the way because you are humble, meek, submissive, teachable, and have become as a little child, with Christ as your Father. Now, take this image and continue with it to its logical conclusion. Christ will be our perfect father. He will teach us how to be his sons and daughters. He will guide us as tenderly as a perfect father would. We are his children and he understands that we live in a fallen state. He will teach us the correct traditions. He will be by our side, like a perfect father would with a little child. He knows that children can't expect to be able to carry the burdens of mortality alone or even mostly. He knows precisely how to guide, teach, and instruct each of his children. He is loving, kind, merciful, and just.

 

-Finrock

[Vort]

I wish I had read and been involved in this conversation from its inception. I have wondered just what james12 asks. There is a spirit underlying the commandments, and the commandments are designed to lead us to that spirit. But if we never reach that point, the commandments themselves become superfluous, and our own efforts degenerate into a gift given with no real desire that, in the end, does not benefit us.

 

I have often wondered how to become a better person. I realize that the path involves keeping the commandments, but my spiritual progress has been so painfully slow that I am sure I am doing many things wrong. But what? Some I know, but many I do not.

 

Jesus did indeed break many "commandments", but they were the commandments of men, interpolations of the word of God, like presumptuously undertaking to heal people on the Sabbath (how DARE he!!!). But such restrictions as how many steps one was allowed to take on the Sabbath day, though nowhere commanded by God, were accepted by the Jews as divine because they came from God's anointed leaders. Many have suggested that some modern "commandments", e.g. the Word of Wisdom, are not really commandments and that we are not really obligated to keep them. I disagree, but I can see their point.

 

I think we must come to the point where we are guided by the Spirit in all things. I am nowhere near that point, so I "blindly" follow commandments until I can see clearly enough to understand my way. I also look with a jaded eye on those who claim to be able to see and who mock or criticize those "sheep" who practice what they term "blind obedience". I have little patience for or sympathy with the sneerers who deride others. As for myself, yes, I am a sheep, absolutely so. My efforts are not bent so much toward blazing my own brilliant path as they are toward determining who my Shepherd is and what his voice sounds like.

 

Anyway, because james12's post has struck a chord with me, I assume he feels somewhat the same way that I do, and that other good members of this list have misapprehended his question. Too bad, because I would love to receive greater insight into this point. But perhaps such insight comes only through personal revelation -- ironically, the very thing I would like to achieve by "progressing smarter, not harder".

Edited April 27, 2015 by Vort

[The Folk Prophet]

I wish I had read and been involved in this conversation from its inception.

 

It's only on page 2. Compared to some threads, it still is it's inception.

[The Folk Prophet]

Whoops. Page 3 now.

[Blackmarch]

To the OP as one progresses the burden of responsibility will become greater... However if one is dutiful and earnest in seeking the will pf God they shall be strengthend so that they can bear that burden.