Baltimore riots

[yjacket]

Have they actually come out and said that?  Last I heard the BPD was still silent on the matter.

They are silent . . .but it's pretty easy to figure out what happened given the rap sheet and that the area he was in was where drug busting cops liked to hang out (can't remember nor find the link for the above).

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Baltimore Police Admit Delay in Calling Ambulance for Freddie Gray

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/25/us/baltimore-mayor-demands-answers-in-death-of-freddie-gray.html?_r=0

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Have they actually come out and said that?  Last I heard the BPD was still silent on the matter.

 

Yes it is mentioned in this article:

 

A Freddie Gray Primer: Who was he? How did he die? Why is there so much anger?

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/04/28/a-freddie-gray-primer-who-was-he-how-did-he-why-is-there-so-much-anger/

[yjacket]

And it's a dirty job.  Unless you have been out there on the front lines with them you don't have the slightest clue about how dirty their job is, what horrible dirt they have to deal with.

This has become the bizarro world.  Everything is backwards.  Crime is ok.  That's what these riots are all about.

dc

 

Disproportionately affects the black community?  Are you joking.  Was there ever any person who took up drugs involuntarily?  No. 

Most would rather deal drugs than go to college on an affirmative action program.  Easy money.  Affirmative action programs never fill their quota.

 

I don't know if anyone has noticed.  The most racist people in the United States today are ... black.

 

I do agree with the other stuff you wrote in this post, you are certainly right. You are right they should lose their jobs and not be able to find another one in that line of work . . . unfortunately it's real hard to get a prosecution on a cop and here is why.

1) Who would prosecute? The DA . . . well the DA works hand in hand with police; a DA who doesn't protect his own is going to have a real hard time working with the police.

2) Police Unions- again protect their own. 

3) Grand Juries - with a DA who doesn't really want to prosecute but wants to say he did he can very easily conduct a half-hearted attempt and the cop doesn't even go to trail.

 

Now prosecutions do happen, but for them to happen it has to be extremely egregious.

 

As for front lines. . .please spare the hyperbole; Please read the following:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2015/01/how_dangerous_is_police_work_1053727.php

 

Being a cop is not a dangerous job.  Sometimes it can be but overall it is not, anyone who says it is is selling something.

 

And yes drug laws affect blacks (more particular poor blacks) more than whites . . . if one is poor less likely one is going to find some kicking lawyer to prevent one going to jail for smoking crack.

[bytor2112]

David, I try not to be sarcastic or snarky, but you are seriously tempting me.  

 

I'll leave it at this:  do you have any facts to support your OPINION, which I strongly disagree with. 

 

David is not alone in that belief. . I have a great deal of disdain towards labeling people racist as the word is so overused and most normal people have racism fatigue since it has been used as a battering ram for so many years. 

 

I tend to view all races as inherently prejudice toward the unknown and particularly toward those of different races. I live in and grew up in a small southern town and to this day there are areas of the city that white people should not walk through or near and that is on main streets and not even in the neighborhoods. The local football stadium has had and still has a section that if you are white you best not be found in during a football game if you don't want to get attacked. That problem is more pronounced in larger cities and is not isloated to the southern United States.

 

Perception becomes reality when it is your day to day experience. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by bytor2112

[David13]

yjacket

Read my words.  I did not say dangerous.  I said dirty.

And, believe me, it is dangerous enough. 

Just exactly why is it that you think they carry guns?

Yes, it is because there are certain robbers, rapists and thieves that do not want to go back to jail, and will do anything, including killing a cop to avoid going back.  And who carry guns.  Yes, illegal guns, guns obtained with no background check whatsoever.  (What!  How did that happen?)

dc

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

David is not alone in that belief. . I have a great deal of disdain towards labeling people racist as the word is so overused and most normal people have racism fatigue since it has been used as a battering ram for so many years. 

 

 

 

Ok...MANY people's OPINIONS do not make equate with facts.  David stated his opinion as if it were an undeniable fact, which it isn't. I'm well aware many people hold this opinion, many feel the opposite.  Perception is also not fact.  I understand that my opinion and perception does not equal TRUTH either.  

 

So there we are left with opinions and perceptions...

Edited April 29, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[unixknight]

For anyone who still doesn't quite understand the frustration and anger being felt by people in Baltimore, just take a look at LP's link to the timeline.

 

" Officials say he was able to climb into the back of a police van."

Lie.  Video taken by witnesses show several officers physically lifting Gray into the van.

 

"Police have said they don’t know whether Gray was injured during his arrest or while in the van."

Lie.  Video shows them physically carrying Gray, who was in severe and visible pain, after he was cuffed.

 

Surprising fact:  WHEN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT OPENLY LIES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, PEOPLE WILL STOP TRUSTING THE POLICE.

 

This isn't cop hate.  This isn't thuggery.  This isn't people looking for an excuse to cause problems.  This is what happens when you insult the intelligence of the people you're supposed to be serving.

 

As I said earlier, nobody's excusing the opportunistic looters.  I'm talking about the legitimate anger and frustration being felt by people who feel as if their own city law enforcement is a bigger threat to them than the crime in the streets they're supposedly being kept safe from by the police department.

 

I drive through that areas on my way to and from work sometimes.  (My preferred route is to take Martin Luther King Blvd to I-395 but sometimes traffic is bad there so I go the North Avenue way.)  It's a demographically black part of the city and some of it is run down with many abandoned townhouses.  Would I walk alone at night in that part of the city?  Probably not, but I feel less threatened by that prospect than by the notion of dealing with the BPD...

 

...which I have.  I flagged an officer down once after I was in a minor car accident and the other driver fled the scene.  The officer treated me with suspicion and openly suggested I was up to some kind of shenanigans.  (And I look white, so this isn't a claim of racism.)

[David13]

I just don't believe their "frustration and anger" has anything to do with this arrest.

I understand you have the facts and the truth, and we only have our opinions, but I say, that's good enough for me.

dc

[yjacket]

yjacket

Read my words.  I did not say dangerous.  I said dirty.

And, believe me, it is dangerous enough. 

Just exactly why is it that you think they carry guns?

Yes, it is because there are certain robbers, rapists and thieves that do not want to go back to jail, and will do anything, including killing a cop to avoid going back.  And who carry guns.  Yes, illegal guns, guns obtained with no background check whatsoever.  (What!  How did that happen?)

dc

 

Dirty . . . fair enough my bad.  Plenty of other worse dirty jobs out there, plumber, etc.

 

No, sorry I don't believe you.  I've got statistics and facts and you have belief.  Now if your belief lined up with statistics and facts, I'd believe you; but they don't.  You've got rhetoric, I've got statistics.  The facts don't lie, being a cop is a safe job.

 

There are times when it might be dangerous and I've never said they shouldn't carry guns, I believe they should carry guns so that in the extreme rare case they encounter a nasty person, they have the means to stop them and protect themselves.

 

Please put aside the rhetoric; it is extremely rare for a cop to be in a situation that calls for physical violence.  Unfortunately, instead of looking at facts cops believe the lies and "prepare for battle" every day . . . well guess what happens when everyone you meet you treat as the enemy . . . they start seeing you as the enemy.

 

The stats do not lie, violent crime is dramatically down over the past 20 years and cops rarely are in mortal danger (more are killed in automobile accidents than someone killing them).

Edited April 29, 2015 by yjacket

[yjacket]

 

So, to arbitrarily conclude that legalization of drugs will keep jailhouses empty is not necessarily true. You have to be able to show that legalization of drugs will not increase poverty. We are not just talking marijuana here.

 

Oh I don't know let's take a real world example . . . . .Portugal 15 years ago decriminalized drugs . . . boy they must all shoot up over there right?  It must be absolutely crazy, drugs everywhere.

 

Eh, not so much.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html

http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

Edited April 29, 2015 by yjacket

[David13]

yjacket

Nothing personal, but I get the impression you have no cop friends and have never worked with any of them. 

i would like you to watch a video.  Yes, it is somewhat rare.  But watch this and see if your view (I must say jaded) view of a cops job doesn't change just a tad.

Viewer discretion is advised. 

They get a computer report.  The gentleman cop says a profanity;  the lady cop says omg the words.

And then ...

dc

Now, tell me being a cop is not dangerous.  You see, it's not always dangerous.  But when it is, it's really dangerous.

[Guest]

I've never had a job where I needed to wear Kevlar.

[bytor2112]

Ok...MANY people's OPINIONS do not make equate with facts.  David stated his opinion as if it were an undeniable fact, which it isn't. I'm well aware many people hold this opinion, many feel the opposite.  Perception is also not fact.  I understand that my opinion and perception does not equal TRUTH either.  

 

So there we are left with opinions and perceptions...

 

I agree. One might even be so bold as to suggest that those opinions exist because of the vast evidence that it could be fact.

Edited April 29, 2015 by bytor2112

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I agree. One might even be so bold as to suggest that those opinions exist because of the vast evidence that it could be fact.

Yes we might even agree if we could just agree on the vast evidence we are going to accept, right? In my opinion, I presented compelling evidence and facts above. But I'm guessing that didn't pesuade you.

When we can't agree on facts then we are back to opinion.

[bytor2112]

Yes we might even agree if we could just agree on the vast evidence we are going to accept, right? In my opinion, I presented compelling evidence and facts above. But I'm guessing that didn't pesuade you.

When we can't agree on facts then we are back to opinion.

 

It would seem that you are in the minority opinion. While opinion is not fact and in this case I don't know that there is a way to prove or disprove by way of fact, it does appear to many that there is enough evidence to suggest it is reality. But that is just my opinion...

Edited April 29, 2015 by bytor2112

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

It would seem that you are in the minority opinion. While opinion is not fact and in this case I don't know that there is a way to prove or disprove by way of fact, it does appear to many that there is enough evidence to suggest it is reality. But that is just my opinion...

 

Majority opinion does not define truth.  Consider this if I went to Iraq I would be in the minority, does that mean when I'm in Iraq Islam is true, but when I come back to the States where Christianity is the majority then Christianity is truth again?

 

Do you have any response to my evidence that I posted up thread?

[bytor2112]

Majority opinion does not define truth.  Consider this if I went to Iraq I would be in the minority, does that mean when I'm in Iraq Islam is true, but when I come back to the States where Christianity is the majority then Christianity is truth again?

 

Do you have any response to my evidence that I posted up thread?

 

Evidence regarding black people being.....less racist than white people? I guess, I missed that. 

 

I believe David said blacks in the USA and not around the world, so, your example above doesn't work. That said, experience creates opinion and that opinion is wide spread. Not sure why we are arguing whether it is a provable fact, it isn't. I simply noted that he is not alone in his opinion as evidenced by the Rasmussen poll. Your are free to believe otherwise as am I. 

[unixknight]

Majority opinion does not define truth.

 

^This.

 

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."

—Christopher Hitchens

[Guest]

Oh I don't know let's take a real world example . . . . .Portugal 15 years ago decriminalized drugs . . . boy they must all shoot up over there right?  It must be absolutely crazy, drugs everywhere.

 

Eh, not so much.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-decriminalization-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html

http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-after-portugal-decriminalized-all-drugs-here-s-what-s-happening

You are not reading correctly.

My point is that increasing POVERTY increases crime. I want you to give me some reason how legalizing drugs does not increase POVERTY in the US.

The case in Portugal does not apply to the US. First off, Portugal did not legalize drugs. It merely removed the criminal penalty of personal drug use. It is still illegal to grow, manufacture, distribute, and possess drugs. But, criminal penalty is not applied to personal use only. Freddie - being a distributor - would still have been prosecuted for criminal charges in Portugal. But, even personal users are still given court summons and their drugs confiscated. They are then required to submit to psychological evaluation and possibly treatment and rehabilitation. Interestingly, this system already exists in many parts of the US - including Jackson County Missouri, the meth capital of the US in the early 2000's. Those caught using meth and other illicit substances may be sentenced to psychological evaluation and government-paid treatment and rehabilitation instead of jail depending on the case in Missouri.

Portugal's move to remove the criminal penalty of personal drug use came with high increases in treatment and rehabilitation. Portugal provides Universal Healthcare, therefore, these got absorbed into that system. The US healthcare system is a mess right now. Putting that strain into that system is just going to make the problem worse. The treatment and rehab system worked in Missouri because they had a really high incidence of drug use - these people were not contributing members to society and are already straining the system. Therefore, diverting tax funds to rehab and treatment was worth the investment of getting these teenagers and young 20's folks into stable jobs.

So, as you can see, there is nothing in Portugal that is better than what is going on in the US.

[Traveler]

What happens when laws are not enforced?  Some think people will be more respective of the law - if there is not any effort to show that the law will  be enforced.

 

I have noticed many time while driving that people tent do speed - run yellow lights and even run stop signs if they think the law will not be enforced - but the same people will slow down and drive the speed limit - stop for yellow lights and make complete stops at stop sign if they see a traffic cop observing them.

 

Where on earth did the idea come from that people will respect the law more if there is no threat to enforce it.  It is irresponsible for any public official to suggest that any law not be enforced.  We may want to change an unjust law but if a law exist - to pretend it should not be enforced - with rare exception - will not help a society be peaceful.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

Being a cop is not a dangerous job.

 

 

Just wanted to make sure your statement here got highlighted, yjacket.

[Litzy]

I once heard (perhaps even here?) a cop's career was described as 98% being bored out of your mind and 2% being terrified for your life. If this is one of those cute statements that gets passed around the percentages probably differ slightly but amount to the same idea.

 

As for the riots... it's a sad situation. By all means, I don't surprise mindless looting and cruelty and I think the majority of those rioters are simply taking advantage of the situation. But the root incident was terribly sad and there are so many mixed and passionate emotions in this city. I can't whole-heartedly pick a side.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Litzy

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Another great question we could be asking . . . this is a question a protestor asked someone from the media.

 

"My question to you is, when we were out here protesting all last week for six days straight peacefully, there were no news cameras, there were no helicopters, there was no riot gear, and nobody heard us." Williams said. "So now that we've burned down buildings and set businesses on fire and looted buildings, now all of the sudden everybody wants to hear us."

 

"Why does it take a catastrophe like this in order for America to hear our cry?" she continued. "I mean, enough is enough. We've had too many lives lost at the hands of police officers. Enough is enough."

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/baltimore-protester-media-coverage_n_7166018.html?ir=Black+Voices&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000047

Edited April 29, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest]

Have they tried peacefully protesting for days?