knowledge and culpability Luke 23:34

[askandanswer]

We had an interesting discussion in Sunday School last week about Luke 23:34

 

(New Testament | Luke 23:34)

34  ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.  And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

 

This scripture seems to suggest that those who Christ was asking to be forgiven did not know or understand the sinful nature of the conduct they were involved in, but that they still needed to be forgiven. I’ve always understood that there was some sort of relationship between knowledge and culpability, and that you couldn’t have culpability if you didn’t know that what you were doing is wrong. See for example

 

(Book of Mormon | Alma 29:5)

5  Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience.

 

(New Testament | James 4:17)

17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

(New Testament | 1 Timothy 1:12 - 13)

12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

 

So are we culpable and responsible if we did not know that what we were doing was wrong? And if we are not, why did Christ ask that they be forgiven when they acted without knowledge?

[Vort]

Christ was asking forgiveness for the Roman soldiers. Were they culpable for executing someone? Or perhaps Jesus was speaking of their cruelty. In either case, the gentile Roman troops were in ignorance and so would be exculpated in many of their spiritual transgressions. In doing this, perhaps Christ was demonstrating how we are forgiven and not held accountable before God for our unrighteous acts: Because Christ, our Redeemer, asks it of the Father.

 

Your penultimate question deserves scrutiny: Are we culpable when we didn't know what we were doing was wrong? The easy answer, which in many cases it is doubtless also the correct answer, is no. But I believe there are many cases where we should know right from wrong, and we don't because we refuse to see or acknowledge it. In these cases of willful blindness, I think we bear a great deal more blame.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think the implication of the scripture isn't forgive them for everything and give them exaltation, etc. It was forgive them for crucifying a God, which certainly has to be the greatest sin one could possibly commit in the know. They were culpable for what they were doing that they knew better. Had they any idea who Christ really was, they would have been culpable for that as well I think. But they knew not that they killed to Son of God.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Perhaps the reason that we are not held as accountable for sins committed in ignorance is precisely because Jesus said this? Maybe this was the moment where He decided that His atonement would cover those who ignorantly sin?

I don't know, but it's the thought that came to me when I read the question.

[The Folk Prophet]

Perhaps the reason that we are not held as accountable for sins committed in ignorance is precisely because Jesus said this? Maybe this was the moment where He decided that His atonement would cover those who ignorantly sin?

I don't know, but it's the thought that came to me when I read the question.

 

The plan of salvation was established well before the foundation of the world. There was nothing newly decided in the middle. Moreover, Jesus didn't "decide". He did, and does, the will of the Father.

[james12]

We had an interesting discussion in Sunday School last week about Luke 23:34

(New Testament | Luke 23:34)

34 ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

This scripture seems to suggest that those who Christ was asking to be forgiven did not know or understand the sinful nature of the conduct they were involved in, but that they still needed to be forgiven. I’ve always understood that there was some sort of relationship between knowledge and culpability, and that you couldn’t have culpability if you didn’t know that what you were doing is wrong. See for example

...

So are we culpable and responsible if we did not know that what we were doing was wrong? And if we are not, why did Christ ask that they be forgiven when they acted without knowledge?

I believe Jesus is not referring here to intellectual knowledge but an unconciousness of the mind. The Roman soldiers had been compelled because of their mental conditioning to act and behave in certain ways. If they had learned to listen to the spirit they would have felt inside themselves the wrongness of the action and would have behaved correctly. It is this lack of knowledge, this ignorance of feeling the spirit, that Christ is referring to.

Now to your specific questions. The light of Christ is given to all men. If they listen to this light which the spirit brings, they will know what is right. So all people know at some level how to act. However many have never learned to pay attention. They do not recognize the guidence of the spirit. Such people have been conditioned to only focus on the physical, the carnal. These people's actions have to do with ignorance of who they truly are. Because of this they do not deserve punishment but pity.

[cdowis]

Christ was asking forgiveness for the Roman soldiers. Were they culpable for executing someone? Or perhaps Jesus was speaking of their cruelty. In either case, the gentile Roman troops were in ignorance and so would be exculpated in many of their spiritual transgressions. In doing this, perhaps Christ was demonstrating how we are forgiven and not held accountable before God for our unrighteous acts: Because Christ, our Redeemer, asks it of the Father.

 

 

 

This is what the JST says, that he was speaking of the soldiers.

[Josiah]

So are we culpable and responsible if we did not know that what we were doing was wrong? And if we are not, why did Christ ask that they be forgiven when they acted without knowledge?

 

Christ still asked for their forgiveness because it is only through Him that we are not held responsible. I think it's critical here to remember that without Christ and His Atonement, any sin or transgression would keep us from God's presence according to the law of justice. Hence this from Alma 42:

 

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

 

 14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

 

 15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

 

 

Why does the Savior set repentance as a condition for redemption? Because without it there is no point to our being here. We are here in large part to change and improve. I personally believe this is at least a critical portion of the "work of justice" Alma is speaking of. So where does that leave those who sin ignorantly? Alma continues:

 

16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.

 

 17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

 

18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.

 

 19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

 

 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.

 

 21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

 

 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

 

 23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

 

 24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

 

 

So neither justice nor mercy has claim on them? Of course it isn't that simple because, as james12 has pointed out, all men have the Light of Christ as a guide. But something in the principle still applies I think. After all, D&C 131:6 informs us that "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance." And if the work of justice truly is to help us improve, this possibility is lost on the ignorant as well.

 

Forgiven or not, those who sin ignorantly are spiritually stuck where they are until they learn. Fortunately, either in this life or in the next, everyone will be able to learn. At that point, each can choose to use that knowledge to repent of past mistakes, or to reject that knowledge and remain in sin willfully. Then, having had the law given to them, they qualify for either mercy or justice to have full claim on them according to their choice. So, we are not held responsible if we repent to whatever degree we can.

 

Honestly, what amazes me most is the Savior's infinite love and patience with me at times when I certainly know better. 

Edited July 27, 2015 by Josiah

[Traveler]

We - even as LDS - seem to have some limited understandings of agency.  I have said before on this forum that agency is a gift from G-d and it is not a power within us.  I believe that it is because of agency given to us that Jesus is able to forgive and the only one (individual) that is able to do so.  Some love to puff themselves up thinking they know something and can judge culpability.  I am of the mind that while we are in mortality we are agents of faith and as such are never are fully culpable - and this is why we can repent and allow him that has given us agency to legally take upon themselves our sins and pay for them in full.

 

I believe Jesus did forgive those that crucified him.  I am content to let him and him only define those that he forgave - but I have come to believe that he honestly and fully forgives everybody.  For some this may seem difficult or even stupid to believe - but I have come to the conclusion that if I can be forgiven - anybody can - and I believe it and so try to govern myself and my actions towards others thinking that Jesus has already forgiven them - that it would be most foolish for me to assume otherwise.  So as far as I am concerned everybody is or will be forgiven for everything.

 

Culpability has nothing to do with anything - it is the atonement that changes everything and allows us to be forgiven.

[Guest]

Repentance is a condition to salvation.  Hence, children baptized at 8-years-old repent for the sins they have done without sufficient knowledge.

 

People who commit sin without knowledge still require repentance/forgiveness for the atonement to work for them.  The great lesson in this last words of Jesus is that forgiveness is available to those who sin with lack of knowledge.  Sometime in the life of every person, knowledge comes - whether it be in mortality or in the spirit world - and at that time, repentance would connect the person to forgiveness through the covenant of baptism qualifying him for salvation.

[The Folk Prophet]

Repentance is a condition to salvation.  Hence, children baptized at 8-years-old repent for the sins they have done without sufficient knowledge.

 

People who commit sin without knowledge still require repentance/forgiveness for the atonement to work for them.  The great lesson in this last words of Jesus is that forgiveness is available to those who sin with lack of knowledge.  Sometime in the life of every person, knowledge comes - whether it be in mortality or in the spirit world - and at that time, repentance would connect the person to forgiveness through the covenant of baptism qualifying him for salvation.

 

I think you'd better check your Book of Moroni a bit closer. Chapter 8:

 

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

 11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

Edited July 27, 2015 by The Folk Prophet