John Koyle Prophecies

[JojoBag]

To put it in perspective, Jojo is the one who believes we ought to study evil spirits so that we can conquer them. Most of us disagree, but that's his stance. 

 

That's fine that you disagree, even if it is wrong.  Let me once again give you two quotes.  Whether or not you believe or agree with the prophet and the apostle who made these statements is not my problem.

 

"It is your duty to study to know everything upon the face of the earth, in addition to reading those books. We should not only study good, and its effects upon our race, but also evil, and its consequences."

Brigham Young

JD 2:93-94

 

This counsel, to "study...evil and its consequences" was repeated by Elder James E. Faust; not once but twice and it was also included in the Aaronic Priesthood manual. This counsel was given in his talk, "The Great Imitator," Ensign Oct 1987, and was so important that it was the First Presidency Message, Ensign Jan 2007.  In this talk he went against the traditional Mormon "doctrine" and explained what evil we are to avoid getting involved in.  I suggest you read both Brigham Young's sermon and the Ensign articles.

[Guest]

Not agreeing with your interpretation or application doesn't make me "wrong" or disbelieving of prophets and apostles. I won't even get into Journal of Discourses as not being canonized.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Eowyn

[JojoBag]

Not agreeing with your interpretation or application doesn't make me "wrong" or disbelieving of prophets and apostles. I won't even get into Journal of Discourses as not being canonized.

 

So, are you saying that because this quote is from the Journal of Discourses it is not valid?  If that is the case, why then do many church leaders quote from it?

 

Maybe you'll be happier if I also tell you the quote can also be found in, "The Discourses of Brigham Young," Pg. 395.

Edited October 22, 2015 by JojoBag

[Guest]

And in those days of darkness and chaos, many shall proclaim, “Woe is unto me for there is much darkness.”  And others shall say, “Woe is unto me for there is much chaos.”

 

And in the midst of that darkness and chaos shall the light shine forth to declare, “Be gone thou darkness, and be gone thou chaos.  For behold the light is back and I’m p**** off!”

 

I believe that prophecy.  

[omegaseamaster75]

 

 

"Why?"  This question goes back to one of several problems with the LDS: the "all is well in Zion" syndrome.  I've heard in church more times than I can count that we don't need to know the signs of the times.  That is not only wrong, but stupid.  I read a conference report that related a study about food storage from the University of Utah.  Only 5% of LDS had one year worth of grain and less than 3% had meat, vegetables, etc.  Those who don't have food storage fall into one of two categories: 1. sincerely cannot afford it, which would be very few LDS. 2. All is well in Zion crowd.  That's the crowd that will get cleansed and I don't want to be part of that group.  Studying the signs of the times will let me know what is coming as each sign presents itself.

 

 

This is a fallacious statement, Our leaders have told us to be prepared, have our food storage etc. I don't understand your interpretation of the "all is well in Zion" syndrome of which you speak. We have been warned and furthermore the body of the church knows it. Those who choose to not be prepared are not following the council of our leaders

 

You don't need to study the "signs of the times" you need to follow the council of our leaders and be ready.

 

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[Guest]

So, are you saying that because this quote is from the Journal of Discourses it is not valid?  If that is the case, why then do many church leaders quote from it?

 

Maybe you'll be happier if I also tell you the quote can also be found in, "The Discourses of Brigham Young," Pg. 395.

 

I'm saying it's not canonized as Church doctrine. I hear church leaders quote from cs lewis, different poetry, other good books, songs, and lots of other sources. That they are good and worthy of quoting doesn't mean that they are canonized doctrine. And again, my interpretation of what Brigham Young said is not the same as yours. That doesn't make me wrong or apostate or whatever it is you're trying to say.

 

The reason I mentioned your perspective on "studying evil" is that your conversation with FolkProphet seemed to relate. 

 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Eowyn

[The Folk Prophet]

"But does he know the future?"  Well, I figured this to be self-evident, but I guess you don't know the answer to your own question.  The answer is, "No."

 

Agreed. So listening to the prophecies of a man who is influenced by the devil is less than a waste.

 

"Why?"  This question goes back to one of several problems with the LDS: the "all is well in Zion" syndrome.  I've heard in church more times than I can count that we don't need to know the signs of the times.  That is not only wrong, but stupid.  I read a conference report that related a study about food storage from the University of Utah.  Only 5% of LDS had one year worth of grain and less than 3% had meat, vegetables, etc.  Those who don't have food storage fall into one of two categories: 1. sincerely cannot afford it, which would be very few LDS. 2. All is well in Zion crowd.  That's the crowd that will get cleansed and I don't want to be part of that group.  Studying the signs of the times will let me know what is coming as each sign presents itself.

 

Whoa! Bait and switch. You're correlating the prophecies of an excommunicate with real prophets in order to study the signs of the times? Or is it that you didn't answer my question? Let me be more clear. Why are you studying the prophecies of an excommunicate who, as you admitted, may as likely as not have gotten his prophecies from the devil who, as you admitted, doesn't know the future? Why?

 

"study...evil and its consequences." 

 

Edited October 22, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[EarlJibbs]

Let me take your questions in order.

 

"But does he know the future?"  Well, I figured this to be self-evident, but I guess you don't know the answer to your own question.  The answer is, "No."

 

"Why?"  This question goes back to one of several problems with the LDS: the "all is well in Zion" syndrome.  I've heard in church more times than I can count that we don't need to know the signs of the times.  That is not only wrong, but stupid.  I read a conference report that related a study about food storage from the University of Utah.  Only 5% of LDS had one year worth of grain and less than 3% had meat, vegetables, etc.  Those who don't have food storage fall into one of two categories: 1. sincerely cannot afford it, which would be very few LDS. 2. All is well in Zion crowd.  That's the crowd that will get cleansed and I don't want to be part of that group.  Studying the signs of the times will let me know what is coming as each sign presents itself.

 

"Including the devil?"  As I stated, the Devil tells the truth when it suits his purposes, always to deceive.  However, Brigham Young told us to "study...evil and its consequences."  As for taking the Devil's word for anything, nope, I don't go there.

I find your post is not sitting well with me. 

 

In response to the two items I have highlighted in black. "1. sincerely cannot afford it, which would be very few LDS"  - "Very few" LDS cannot afford food storage? As is almost all can? Where are you getting your information from? I would suspect that there are quite a few that cannot afford it, or at least think they cannot and lack the skill or know how to save food. Perhaps the planning and care that goes with slowly building up your food storage is difficult for many beyond yourself. I think there are many many more categories than just two. You are saying that either you are very small percentage that actually cannot afford it and if you are not, you must be a sinner. 

 

"That's the crowd that will get cleansed and I don't want to be part of that group"  By cleansed you mean die, correct? I have doubt in this. Please show me where your conclusion is coming from. If I am "cleansed" of all things, for this, I think that I would be leading a pretty good life.  This isn't an "all is good in Zion" approach and I doubt that I will be wiped off the face of the planet along with my family if we didn't have a year food storage. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by EarlJibbs

[mirkwood]

Nostradamus foretold jet fighters too, because he talked about how "the half pig man will find it hard to speak", and fighter pilots have difficulty speaking during high-g maneuvers, and wear those cool helmet things that look like this:

 

 

 

Looks like an elephant.  A jet has a sting like a scorpion in it's tail. 

[Guest]

What exactly is your point?  You started with a simple question:  "What do you think?"  Pretty open.  But then you kept talking like the guy might be on to something.

 

Multiple times people have commented that if a blind man on a trotting horse is given enough ammunition he'll eventually hit the target.  Why is that not enough for you?  What is your bottom line anyway?

 

"It is your duty to study to know everything upon the face of the earth, in addition to reading those books. We should not only study good, and its effects upon our race, but also evil, and its consequences."

 

I don't have a problem with the quote.  I have a  problem with your interpretation.  What you're saying is tantamount to: In order to know the deleterious effects of drugs, take drugs for years.  NO!  You only study such things in a highly academic sense.  But you're going beyond that.  In order to know the dangers of evil spirits you need to invite evil spirits  into your home?  Yeah, what could possibly go wrong?

 

Then you try to apply this to studying the "prophecies" of an apostate because we're supposed to dig through piles of excrement to dig up the undigested bits of food that we could use for nourishment?  Look! there's some corn.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Many years ago I worked on the development and deployment of the cruse missile.  The navigation of the cruse missile uses a pre-determined and known path from source to the destination - I would liken this (as a similar example of navigation by president Uchtdorf) and then a specialized down looking radar to match the current turane against the turane of the pre-determined and known path.  Often we reference the scriptures (prophesy) as a map or guide to help us find our way.  But that is only part of what the cruse missile uses.  The other most important element is current feed back and exact location of where we are to the prophetic path.  This I would liken to current revelation - without which; that initial path or revelations are useless and even misleading.

 

By synchronizing the known path with the current turane the curse missile is able to fly so accurately that it can fly through a target window 3 feet in diameter at an exact altitude 1,500 miles from where the missile was launched.  But if the known map has a flaw or if there is at any point confusion over the exact location being traveled on the path - the missile can miss the target by hundreds of miles - rendering the missile completely useless as a threat to the target.

 

This is the great problem I see in religious efforts that believe in the authority of closed cannon - they may understand that path or way of the closed cannon but have no clue as to where they are thinking prophetic turane is a match for what they observe on their current path.

 

I'm usually not a grammar or spelling Nazi.  And it's nothing personal (especially when your post could be taken as either side in or is completely irrelevant to this current debate). But it is difficult for me to take you seriously as an expert in a field when you misspell simple but key words like "cruise" or "terrain" or "prophecy" and misuse words like "altitude".

Edited October 23, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

This how a missile guidance system "really" works:

 

The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.

 

In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.

 

The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.

[NeedleinA]

Those who don't have food storage fall into one of two categories: 1. sincerely cannot afford it, which would be very few LDS. 2. All is well in Zion crowd.  

I fall into a 3rd category. The "you gotta die from something" group. I've moved over a dozen times in my life. Ever moved a one year supply of food for a family of 8 over a dozen times? Now that I'm older with my own family, I think I'd rather die of starvation than move those boxes again   I think it is easy to get overly concerned with avoiding death. We all have to die from something, so if it comes to me from lack of food storage, at least my back will have thanked me until said time. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by NeedleinA

[Guest]

My husband is a really smart guy, an engineer (software), and can't spell to save his life. Homonyms are the enemy. He's still a really smart guy, so when we're chatting online I try to leave my grammar/spelling Nazi at the door. as it were (and remember that he outbrains me in pretty much every other discipline). :) 

 

Though I have been guilty of ribbing Traveler over some particularly amusing misspellings. 

[Guest]

I usually do too.  But sometimes I just can't contain myself.  Of course, I recognize the double standard of this coming from a guy who purposefully misspells his Internet Handle.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Guest

[Blackmarch]

I just recently learn of some alleged prophecies from a former bishop, John Koyle. He was excommunicated from the church and died in 1949. He made a series of alleged prophecies, one of which caught my attention.

 

 

Since three general authorities recently died in quick succession, it makes me wonder what else he said that has and will come true. The following are a few of his prophecies.

 

 

 

 

What do you think?

if it stirs one to get their lives in order, then good.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Blackmarch

[spamlds]

It has been interesting reading the various comments here.  I made a lengthy comment earlier and, since then, some chapters in Alma I read in my daily scripture study came to mind.  

 

I just started the "war chapters" of Alma, which I think have great bearing on our time.  The thing that impresses me most is that the wars came upon the Nephites because the Church fell  into pride and dissenters began to cause trouble.  That impacted the whole of the Nephite community because the vehicle for message of salvation got distracted from its core missions.

 

After Alma put the Church into Helaman's hands, Helaman and the high priests of the Church saw the need for a regulation of the Church.  By "regulation" here, the scripture means corrective attention from its leaders.  I attended a conference convened for the benefit of stake presidents, bishops, and branch presidents in the the state of Virginia.  Elder Nelson presided and one of the Seventy (I don't recall his name and my notes from the meeting are packed away from recent move) who was on the Scripture Committee of the Church.  They described this meeting as a a "regulation" meeting.  They spoke of "establishing" the Church as described in Alma, meaning that these kinds of meetings were to ensure that the Church in an area is founded or established on sound doctrine.  The teachings in that meeting were gentle, instructive, and corrective in some areas.  This is the kind of meeting Helaman and his brethren held among the Nephites.  In Alma 45:21 it says:

 

For behold, because of their wars with the Lamanites and the many little dissensions and disturbances which had been among the people, it became expedient that the word of God should be declared among them, yea, and that a regulation should be made throughout the church.

 

Note that the corrective action was to deal with "little dissensions and disturbances."  That's the kind of stuff that arises on forums like LDS Freedom Forum or A Voice of Warning.  Julie Rowe's teachings cause disturbances that cause problems in the Church.  Many well-meaning people get drawn away by these false oracles.  When the General Authorities issue the correction (or when it comes through stake presidents or their bishops), some of these people will become "dissenters."  They become critical of the Church for not being "awake" to the dangers that their chosen oracle is proclaiming.

 

In Helaman, the next verses tell us:

 

23 And now it came to pass that after Helaman and his brethren had appointed priests and teachers over the churches that there arose a dissension among them, and they would not give heed to the words of Helaman and his brethren;

 

24 But they grew proud, being lifted up in their hearts, because of their exceedingly great riches; therefore they grew rich in their own eyes, and would not give heed to their words, to walk uprightly before God.

 

Invariably, the dissenters start with criticizing leaders, then they object to paying tithing, complaining how the Church allocates its funds.  Then they cause contention in their quorums or in their Church classes.  Some of them go inactive, but they haunt Internet forums stirring up dissent. Others leave the Church and follow cult-like offshoots, like Bishop Koyle's "Relief Mine" group.  A few will apostatize completely and go to other churches where, like Amalickiah, they go to "stir up the Lamanites" to anger against their former brethren, and seek to persecute the Church.  

 

Once the poison of these false oracles get into an Internet forum, the greatest mistake is to debate the doctrinal points or the accuracy of the supposed prophecy.  That's what causes dissent.  The dissent is the symptom of the poison.  It gives Satan his opening to divide and conquer.  The people who want to follow the true oracles become the constant targets of the dissenters' harping and they eventually will leave the forum.  

 

That just leaves the dissenters to argue among themselves until the Church itself loses credibility in the eyes of other visitors.  Just go to one of these "prophecy" discussions on these other web sites and you'll see predictions that the collapse of society or the "call-out" to the "tent cities" was imminent in 2010 and again in 2012 and again this year with the Shemitah and the blood moon eclipses.  It doesn't take much to see that their track record of accuracy is pitiful.

 

I'm not saying that those things aren't going to happen, but they're not going to happen without the Lord giving the real prophets of our dispensation the warnings we need.  The nature of the warnings we receive are clear and unambiguous.  If we heed them, we'll be ready.  If we don't we won't. 

 

As interesting as these things can be, the prophecies of Bishop Koyle, the dreams of Julie Rowe, Hopi prophecies, or the vision of Catholic St. Malacky are not the oracles the Lord has appointed.  If we trust in them more than we trust in the legitmate oracles, we will be deceived and lead ourselves and others astray.

[cdowis]

War chapters in the Book of Mormon

 

 

Nibley said (more or less), "Woe to that generation which is able to understand why these chapters are in the Book of Mormon."

Edited October 25, 2015 by cdowis

[hames02]

We don't need to wait for the Prophet to tell us what to do, we have the gospel plan already. Searching out "truths" in apostates writings is quite frankly barking up the wrong tree. Stay on the current path (I mentioned that we already have a road map right).

[hames02]

We don't need to wait for the Prophet to tell us what to do, we have the gospel plan already. Searching out "truths" in apostates writings is quite frankly barking up the wrong tree. Stay on the current path.