Help with a question - why do we need a savior?

[Mises]

I have a question which is very important to me so I hope to get some serious answers.

I was raised in the church. I have never had any issues or concerns about any doctrine except, and this is a big one, the need for a savior. I just can't understand why it would be necessary. We came here to earth to learn to be like Heavenly Father. I can do that by following the teachings of the gospel and serving my fellow man. The reason people always give (in and out of the scriptures) is that he has to make up for our failings with the law, but what forces us to go to Heaven or Hell? Heavenly Father? If we learn to be like him, then why would he send us to Hell when we have learned to be godly? Just because we did something wrong 50 years ago?

I am not tryig to be rediculous in any way. This has just never made sense to me and I am hoping someone will say something that will set my mind at ease.

[Guest]

We start with this Eternal Law - No unclean thing can be with the Father.

And - God is both Perfectly Just and Perfectly Merciful.

Next - What makes one a God is perfect unity with the Will that is God's. To be God, one has to FREEly exercise his will and choose good.

Next - to exercise free will, one must be given the choices of Good and Evil. One cannot know Light unless he knows what is Dark. One cannot know Good unless he knows what is bad. He has to experience opposition and then act upon it. Because God loves us, He wants us to have all that He has. He wants us to be God... He wants us to have knowledge of good and evil and choose to align our will to God's.

Again - no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God. Sin makes us unclean... So the price for Sin is Death (Eternal Separation from God). Because we have to choose on our own free will without God choosing for us, we are then in a precarious position to choose wrong because we still lack knowledge (just like a baby would eventually fall before he can learn to walk). We are then destined for death - eternal separation - unless somebody would pay that price to be the one to die instead of us.

So, you say... Well, God should have mercy on us and just forgive us when we sin. If that's the case, then God ceases to be God because He ceases to be Perfectly Just.

So you say... Well, God should just demand justice and leave those who sin die, to be separated from Him for all eternity... He ceases to be God then too because there is no way a spirit lacking knowledge can avoid choosing wrong things... God then ceases to be Perfectly Merciful.

Christ then offered Himself to die for our sins so that God remains Perfectly Just and Perfectly Merciful - He remains God. Christ is the only one that is qualified to pay the price for our sin because He is God (he can't eternally be separated from God because he is God) and he has no sin (one can't die for somebody when he himself is dead). So that, at the crucifixion, Christ died for us - he got completely separated from the Father (Father, why have you abandoned me?)... This spiritual death of an innocent paid the price of all our sins committed due to a lack of knowledge.

Edited November 9, 2015 by anatess

[Jane_Doe]

I was raised in the church. I have never had any issues or concerns about any doctrine except, and this is a big one, the need for a savior. I just can't understand why it would be necessary. We came here to earth to learn to be like Heavenly Father. I can do that by following the teachings of the gospel and serving my fellow man. The reason people always give (in and out of the scriptures) is that he has to make up for our failings with the law, but what forces us to go to Heaven or Hell? Heavenly Father? If we learn to be like him, then why would he send us to Hell when we have learned to be godly? Just because we did something wrong 50 years ago?

I am not tryig to be rediculous in any way. This has just never made sense to me and I am hoping someone will say something that will set my mind at ease.

 

You actually seem to have a couple questions here:  

 

1)  Why do some people not make it to the highest degree of Heaven?  

    Answer: because they choose not to.

Being united with God and God-like means surrendering completely to Him-- completely giving up on "it's about me and what I want".  Some people love their selfish and wicked ways more than God, and hence cannot be with Him eternal.

 

2)  Why doesn't God just let people sit away from Him forever until they "shape up"?

    Answer: because ultimately you have to choose wickedness or righteousness.  God gives us until the final Judgement, and then you must make a choice (no wishy-washy-ness for a couple thousand years)

 

3)  Why the need for a Savior?  Why can't the law just be ignored?

    Answer: because the law is divine and eternal importance.

(Warning: extreme example coming here)  Let's say you have a daughter, and when she's 7 years old, someone rapes & murders her in front of you.  That pain, that trauma, is incredibly real, and Christ sheds every single tear with you.  Even if the bad-guy has a massive change of heart, no amount of the bad-guy saying "I'm sorry" will simply make your pain go away.   Rather, your very real pain must be justified and a punishment must be issued.  If the bad-guy doesn't come to God, then he has to pay the price himself.  If he does come to God, that where Christ's sacrifice comes in: His blood to justify your pain, and  Godly forgiveness to free the repentant.    

[Vort]

Elder McConkie taught:

 

What of the mystery of our Lord’s birth? Indeed, why should God even have a son? Is Jesus the Son of Man, or the Son of God, or is there a difference? Was it necessary to have a Savior and Redeemer, or is the Koran correct in teaching that God had no need for a son because Allah has but to speak and a thing is done?

By what power could Jesus atone for the sins of the world, or rise from death’s dark tomb, or ascend physically into heaven? Is the atonement truly infinite and eternal, applying to all worlds and all created things?

[...]

It is our friend Paul who tells us: “Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory” (1 Timothy 3:16).

We agree. But all these things are beyond carnal comprehension. God dwelling in the flesh! How can anyone understand such a pronouncement unless quickened by the power of the Spirit?

The revealed word to Joseph Smith announces that endless torment does not last forever, and that eternal damnation is of limited duration. In spite of the plain meaning of words, the divine word is that eternal punishment and endless punishment do in fact have an end.

“For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it,” the Lord says, as he gives to these words a special scriptural definition. As he says, this is done so that the concepts involved “might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory” (D&C 19:6–12).

As it is with such a mystery as God dwelling in the flesh, or as eternal punishment having no reference to the duration, but rather to the kind of punishment, so it is with all else embraced within the designation the mystery of godliness.

The doctrine is what the doctrine is, and the concepts are what the concepts are. It is of no moment whatever that they spread confusion among uninspired worshippers at divers shrines, or among intellectuals whose interest in religion is purely academic and who rely on the power of the mind rather than the power of the Spirit for understanding.

Gospel truths are known and understood only by the power of the Spirit. Eternal life—which is to know God—is such an infinitely great reward that men must study, ponder, and pray, with all their hearts, to gain the needed knowledge.

[james12]

We came here to earth with imperfections which in some measure have been with us from the beginning. These imperfections prevent our advancement in the eternities. With no external circumstances forcing us one way or the other we were stagnant. The only way for us to move forward was to be cut off from God's presence (or in other words his influence and spirit) and face the adversary more directly. But to be cut off from Him would ensure our eventual collapse. Clearly we needed some way to reach him or we would ultimately lose all desire to improve.  

 

We needed someone who could be placed in our fallen condition, cut off from God's immediate presence as were we, but who was able to overcome the adversary and return to the Father. In so doing he could help us overcome our imperfections. If we accepted his offer, he could take us from where we were to where we should be. He would be the intermediary between God and man by offering imperfect man a path to completely regain the Father's presence. This process is called the atonement, or at-one-ment.

 

Through a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ he offered a path where we could make mistakes but not be overcome by Satan. When we failed, a commitment to improve and a willingness to change would be enough to allow the spirit to enter again into our lives and renew the covenant we had failed to keep.  

 

I'm out of time. Hopefully that answers some questions. Feel free to ask more or clarification and I'll help where I can.

 

 

 

[Backroads]

Because we aren't perfect.

Because without the Atonement to take care of our mistakes, we cannot move forward and properly learn to be like Heavenly Father.

Sin cannot exist in God's presence. Our Savior ' s Atonement gives us the opportunity to move past sin and allows us the change of heart necessary to grow, learn, and become like the Father.

In a nutshell.

(Tomes have been written on this.)

[Guest MormonGator]

Because humanity is sinful and in order to be saved, we needed to kill a sinless Man. 

[Guest]

When we sin there are two things that will not change without a Savior.

 

1) We have broken a commandment.  Justice demands payment.  We as mortals cannot pay such a debt.

2) There is a spiritual stain upon us as a result of that sin.  We as mortals cannot cleanse ourselves of such stain.

 

No amount of "learning to be Godly" will ever change those two facts.  And either of those two facts will prevent us from returning to our Heavenly Father.

 

So, why can't God just "wave a magic wand" and forgive us and cleanse us without the Savior?  That is a good question and requires some thought and spiritual maturity to understand.

 

1) If God can wave such a magic wand without any significant intervention, then Eternal Laws may be nullified.

2) Such Eternal Laws are Co-Eternal with God.  If those laws can be nullified, so can God.

3) Neither God nor such Laws can be nullified. They must be satisfied.

4) A work around or significant intervention is required.  The Atonement provided such intervention.

 

The Atonement of Christ was both Infinite and Eternal.  Through it,

 

1) We are justified -- payment for sins is rendered.

2) We are cleansed -- The stain is removed.

3) NOW we can simply "learn our lesson" and be forgiven, etc.  as soon as we accept Christ's Atonement so it can work in us.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Guest

[Traveler]

We need a savior from death or to be resurrected in order to overcome death.

[Irishcolleen]

We start with this Eternal Law - No unclean thing can be with the Father.

And - God is both Perfectly Just and Perfectly Merciful.

Next - What makes one a God is perfect unity with the Will that is God's. To be God, one has to FREEly exercise his will and choose good.

Next - to exercise free will, one must be given the choices of Good and Evil. One cannot know Light unless he knows what is Dark. One cannot know Good unless he knows what is bad. He has to experience opposition and then act upon it. Because God loves us, He wants us to have all that He has. He wants us to be God... He wants us to have knowledge of good and evil and choose to align our will to God's.

Again - no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God. Sin makes us unclean... So the price for Sin is Death (Eternal Separation from God). Because we have to choose on our own free will without God choosing for us, we are then in a precarious position to choose wrong because we still lack knowledge (just like a baby would eventually fall before he can learn to walk). We are then destined for death - eternal separation - unless somebody would pay that price to be the one to die instead of us.

So, you say... Well, God should have mercy on us and just forgive us when we sin. If that's the case, then God ceases to be God because He ceases to be Perfectly Just.

So you say... Well, God should just demand justice and leave those who sin die, to be separated from Him for all eternity... He ceases to be God then too because there is no way a spirit lacking knowledge can avoid choosing wrong things... God then ceases to be Perfectly Merciful.

Christ then offered Himself to die for our sins so that God remains Perfectly Just and Perfectly Merciful - He remains God. Christ is the only one that is qualified to pay the price for our sin because He is God (he can't eternally be separated from God because he is God) and he has no sin (one can't die for somebody when he himself is dead). So that, at the crucifixion, Christ died for us - he got completely separated from the Father (Father, why have you abandoned me?)... This spiritual death of an innocent paid the price of all our sins committed due to a lack of knowledge.

 

You almost sound Evangelical! :)

Edited November 11, 2015 by Irishcolleen

[cdowis]

You may find this analogy helpful.

 

[LeSellers]

I have a question which is very important to me so I hope to get some serious answers.

I was raised in the church. I have never had any issues or concerns about any doctrine except, and this is a big one, the need for a savior. I just can't understand why it would be necessary.  … If we learn to be like him, then why would he send us to Hell when we have learned to be godly? Just because we did something wrong 50 years ago?

It all goes back to the nature of God.

 

We are His children. He loves us. He wants for us everything that He has, everything good for us. And He wants that we should be like Him, both spiritually and physically. That requires a physical, glorified, immortal body.

 

There is only one way this can happen for a spirit, as we all were: we must be born on an earth, and overcome the wicked impulses that physical body has on its own.

 

Sin corrupts us. It corrupts our physical bodies, and it corrupts our spirits. The two are one thing once we are born, and cannot be considered separately. As others have shown, no unclean thing can be in the presence of God, but even one sin (and that includes those for which we are not accountable, as with children under eight) will make us unclean. We cannot become clean without an outside intervention. We do not have the power to wash our own sins away.

 

When I was a photographer, we had a saying: a dryer becomes dirty by drying dirty prints. Someone explained that a clean print becomes dirty when it goes through a dirty dryer, and the dryer becomes cleaner. It is a truism that nothing can become clean unless something else becomes dirty. In our case, the Thing that becomes dirty when we becomes clean is Jesus Christ. But He is different from a bucket of water used to clean a car: He can clean Himself (indeed, He doesn't actually get dirty when He cleans us), by virtue of His righteousness and obedience.

 

If we were to remain unclean (the only possible outcome without Him as our Savior), we would have no possibility of being happy. Satan, the quintessential example, is miserable because he put himself beyond the redemption. His only "happiness" is an illusion: he seeks to make all men miserable like unto himself, and, by so doing, lessens, in a way, the joy of God Who loses a child. But even in this short-lived satisfaction, he remains miserable.

 

We would be like him without a Savior. Only Christ is capable of saving anyone beside Himself. We are unable to save ourselves, no matter how righteous we become because the one sin 50 years ago corrupted us.

 

Finally, re do not have the power to resurrect ourselves. Only He does. Let's assume a child who dies fifteen seconds after his birth. He did not, and could not sin. He is not corrupted by sin. But he cannot save himself because, dead, he is corrupted, and he needs a Savior to overcome the transgression of Adam as it works in his short life.

 

I rejoice in the salvation of God: Jesus Christ. May we all find His grace and His love.

 

Lehi

Edited November 15, 2015 by LeSellers