Gog and Magog

[Traveler]

27 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

Please provide a source for this belief.

Lehi

Hugh Nibley

We also have the end or days Biblical symbolic reference of Babylon.  Ancient Babylon was the initial source of the banking industry.  There is reason that our prophets of the restoration have commanded the saints to avoid debt.  Debt is a sin as well as a major temptation.  President Faust in a conference talk expounded on the bondage of debt.  That debt is a master that never takes a day off, never takes a vacation and never sleeps or rests.  Debt is one of the flaxen cords that Satan uses to capture, bind and lead the children of men down into destruction and captivity.   Many believe that debt destroys more marriges than adultry.

[Guest]

Multiple times the twin cities were paired in the description of their evils. Yes, plural.  So, I believe it to be inaccurate to say only one city had one type of sin and the other had a different type of sin.  Further, there were several other cities in the area that were also guilty of similar sins.  But as I understand it they were smaller cities and were not often included in a listing of evil cities.

Ezekiel talks about their pride and not willing to share with the poor.  Jude makes it clear that it was sexuality that was the issue.  I'm certain that if we're talking about cities (all of them) which were utterly destroyed by the Lord down to every man, woman, and child, then we're talking about quite a bit of sin.

In the ward I grew up in, one leader put it: This was not just someone being naughty-naughty.  This was an entire society who had nothing on their minds but various types of sin from morning till night.

One religion professor asked, "Have you ever had a really sinister, truly evil thought?  What if that was the only type of thought you had all day, every day?"

So, no, I don't believe we're only talking about people who did one or two things wrong throughout a week or month.  That is NOT to say that I believe that Traveler's comments are without merit.  I do believe that both sexual immorality and financial debt are two societal plagues that threaten to destroy us.

[Guest]

Traveler,

That last post indicates it was a sin of Babylon, not Gumorrah.

[LeSellers]

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

Hugh Nibley

Is that in the Book of Hebrews?

I love Nibley, but his name alone is not a source. Can you cite his words?

8 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

We also have the end or days Biblical symbolic reference of Babylon.  Ancient Babylon was the initial source of the banking industry.  There is reason that our prophets of the restoration have commanded the saints to avoid debt.  Debt is a sin as well as a major temptation.  President Faust in a conference talk expounded on the bondage of debt.  That debt is a master that never takes a day off, never takes a vacation and never sleeps or rests.  Debt is one of the flaxen cords that Satan uses to capture, bind and lead the children of men down into destruction and captivity.   Many believe that debt destroys more marriges than adultry.

Babylon is not Gomorrah and, as I recall, did not exist before the latter was destroyed.

Your comment about debt destroying more marriages than adultery is exactly why I developed my pay-off-your-mortgage-fast program: any debt (including a mortgage) is an unsleeping burden. Our son paid his off in about two years, and has no debt whatsoever. One man and his wife paid off all their debt in 40 minutes (that's not likely to happen again, but it does indicate the program works as advertised); they turned an $8,000/mo negative cash flow to almost $2,000/ positive in the process. But I'm retired now, so this is not a commercial.

Lehi

[zil]

Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion

Chapter 7

"As Paul also reminds us, it was when the people of Sodom and Gomorrah denied passing strangers and even the birds of heaven their share of the fruit on the trees that Abraham cursed them in the name of his God; according to the Midrash, their sexual aberrations were second in wickedness to such meanness of spirit."

(I'm thinking this must be Paul from some non-scriptural source, as I couldn't find any verses which reference this - but it wouldn't be the first time the Topical Guide or Bible Dictionary left out relevant links - and I'm too interested in doing other things right now to do a search via other means.)

Chapter 8

"We are told that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah put nets over their trees to deny the birds their lunch, and “Abraham, seeing it, cursed them in the name of his God.”"

"It was the practice in Sodom and Gomorrah, we are told, to rob all strangers of their money and then let them starve to death because they could not buy food; and the cities’ inhabitants would put nets over their trees so that the birds would have no free lunch on their fruit. For Abraham, such meanness, as we have seen, was the last straw..." [the online text appears to be cut off here, but my copy of the book ends this with: , and "he cursed them in the name of his God."]  This is consistent also with what's in the Book of Jasher.

Chapter 11

Start with the paragraph which begins, "The Testament of Levi, speaking of Abraham, says that he found the same hostility elsewhere." and keep going until you determine we're done with Gomorrah.

Citations are in the links to the text.  I only searched the first 10 volumes as I have those and it's easier to search them than on the NAMI site.  As far as I can tell, the sources for all these are mostly outside our scriptures.  The Book of Jasher describes torture and use of their legal system to put a person in debt where no debt is really owed (they basically said you owe us because you came here).  I found nothing in all that to suggest that the people of Sodom or Gomorrah themselves were in debt (e.g. to one another, or to people beyond their cities), but perhaps the sin Traveler means is not is not of being in debt or owing interest, but of forcing it upon others (which certainly seems the case in the Book of Jasher - along with an amusing story about how Abraham's servant dealt with it).

All that said, of course we must believe that these people were involved in every kind of wickedness - it's the nature of willful rebellion against the light to explore every corner of darkness - to sin in only one way to the point where God would rain down fire on you seems highly improbable.

[The Folk Prophet]

11 hours ago, Traveler said:

There is reason that our prophets of the restoration have commanded the saints to avoid debt.  

Yes, because it is unwise, practically speaking, to live in debt, and keeps one from being able to otherwise utilize their freedom to do things that they now cannot.

11 hours ago, Traveler said:

Debt is a sin as well as a major temptation. 

In that anything that isn't perfect is a sin, I'll buy. Comparing it to the sins the S&G were destroyed for is beyond ludicrous. At the most basic, simple level it's pretty easy as a consideration: Sexual sin, lies, murders, thievery = no temple recommend. Debt != no temple recommend.

11 hours ago, Traveler said:

Debt is one of the flaxen cords that Satan uses to capture, bind and lead the children of men down into destruction and captivity.  

Lots of things can be flaxen cords that are used to lead the children of men down to destruction and captivity. Even righteous things when used as hobby-horses to look beyond the mark can do so. That doesn't mark debt out as a special sin worthy of fire and brimstone.

Edited February 15, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

This thread is dealing with a number of issues doctrines and thoughts that are now somewhat distant from the concept of G-g and Magog but not really so much.  Nephi tells us in the Book of Mormon that scriptures (especially Isaiah) are types and shadows of things to come - See Ecclesiastes 1:9-10:

Quote

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Thus we can understand that all scriptural epochs are in essence a type and shadow of what is to come - especially in the last days or time known as the "fullness of times".   Obviously the reason G-g and Magog was used to describe something was not because the ancient king and kingdom would actually play a role in the conflict between good and evil in the last days but because they were used to symbolize something.  Because modern society has moved away from symbolism in pursuit of religious notions; many - including LDS miss important points and we end up in worthless discussion as to why temples have pentagrams (5 pointed stars) and why the pentagrams are inverted.  And then why there are other 6 pointed and 8 pointed stars.

 

Symbolism can be used to conger up both good and evil thoughts.  One of the great joys for Satan is to misuse symbolism and to change its meaning in order to confuse mankind.  Though I have made an attempt to broaden the understanding of symbolism on the forum - It would appear many do not want to consider such things. 

 

In general many Christian scholars consider Gog to be the anti-Christ.  In essence this is a symbolic reference to someone that pretends to be Christ like but in essence is a counterfeit intended to confuse mankind and place them in Satan's employ.  I think many are seeing the conflicts between Western capitalism and Islamic sentimentalism.   It has long been my understanding the secularism is not the great enemy of religion - that it is the conflicting ideas within religion that through out history and at the end of times that will boil down to be the actual conflict.

 

Anyway that are my thoughts.  I would be interested in those that believe debt is not a major evil enslaving even the saints in these last days.  Also I would be interested in what the thought are concerning the symbolism of Gog and Magog?  What are the thought - are we seeing signs of the times or are the events of our day just another misdirection?

Edited February 15, 2016 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I would be interested in those that believe debt is not a major evil enslaving even the saints in these last days.

If this was all you had said, there would be little debate. Maybe a wee bit on how "major" an "evil" it is. But the fact that debt is an "evil" to be avoided is not the issue. The implication that debt was the "sin of Gomorrah" and the reason God reigned down fire, killing man, woman, and child in an entire city is the issue.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, zil said:

"We are told that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah put nets over their trees to deny the birds their lunch, and “Abraham, seeing it, cursed them in the name of his God.”"

So, because I have an enclosed garden, I'm going to get hit with fire and brimstone?  Because I put a fence around my chicken run to prevent the foxes and other animals from eating them, I'm going straight to hell?

Yes, I realize there is mention of a certain attitude.  But this does not seem like the great evils of the day to me.

[zil]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, because I have an enclosed garden, I'm going to get hit with fire and brimstone?  Because I put a fence around my chicken run to prevent the foxes and other animals from eating them, I'm going straight to hell?

Yes, I realize there is mention of a certain attitude.  But this does not seem like the great evils of the day to me.

And this is why one should never read something on a larger issue without reading enough to gain context.  IMO, Approaching Zion cannot be understood without reading the whole thing, and then re-reading the scriptures front to back, all while pondering and praying.

Otherwise, I was just provided the requested Nibley quotes wherein someone reasonably reputable states that some of the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were related to money, and not just sex.

[Vort]

Agreed with many of the comments above. The idea that Sodom and Gomorrah's great evil was that the people owed money to each other strikes me as absurd, or even absurdist. If the thought is that they had a practice of enslaving people passing through, then no, that doesn't strike me as absurd, and I wonder if it's true.

As for Nibley's comments: Though a confirmed Nibleyphile, I will nevertheless quickly concede that Nibley had a tendency to put his "liberal" proclivities front and center, to the point of rubbing his compatriot's noses in (his characterization of) popular evils; his outstanding speech "Leaders and Managers" is a case in point, as are his several Brigham Young lectures. So my response to Nibley's claims about the meanness of Sodom and Gomorrah being shown by their putting nets over their trees to keep the birds out is a mental eye-roll and replay of Reagan saying "There you go again."

Edited February 15, 2016 by Vort

[Traveler]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If this was all you had said, there would be little debate. Maybe a wee bit on how "major" an "evil" it is. But the fact that debt is an "evil" to be avoided is not the issue. The implication that debt was the "sin of Gomorrah" and the reason God reigned down fire, killing man, woman, and child in an entire city is the issue.

You bring up a very important point - so I would ask - for what sin does G-d destroy a society?  It is my understanding that it is not any particular sin but what is referred to in scripture as being "ripe" in iniquity (or sin).   Obviously having some debt does not destroy a society but allowing debt to go out of control in society will eventually cause failures that will alter the course of many innocent individuals.  The point I had hoped to make is not that sexual sin is not a major issue of any time - including the last days -- just that debt is a sin and issue that is taking hold and bringing down many institutions of freedom and liberty - much more than many are realizing.

 

But the main reason I bring this up - is not to argue this particular point on this forum - only to give some understanding into Islam - that holds debt as the single most prominent sign of Satan taking hold of a society and country.  We can argue the importance of debt among the LDS or even Christians as a society - but we miss the point of how debt is seen in Islam and why it is so easy to convert many in Islam to what we call radicalization. 

[The Folk Prophet]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

debt is a sin and issue that is taking hold and bringing down many institutions of freedom and liberty - much more than many are realizing.

With this I agree.

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You bring up a very important point - so I would ask - for what sin does G-d destroy a society?  It is my understanding that it is not any particular sin but what is referred to in scripture as being "ripe" in iniquity (or sin).   Obviously having some debt does not destroy a society but allowing debt to go out of control in society will eventually cause failures that will alter the course of many innocent individuals.  

I would dare argue that debt is it's own reward and doesn't require brimstone for the destruction.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, zil said:

And this is why one should never read something on a larger issue without reading enough to gain context.  IMO, Approaching Zion cannot be understood without reading the whole thing, and then re-reading the scriptures front to back, all while pondering and praying.

Otherwise, I was just provided the requested Nibley quotes wherein someone reasonably reputable states that some of the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were related to money, and not just sex.

Sorry, Zil.  I didn't necessarily mean to attack you.  I realize you were merely providing the quoted source.  My response, therefore, was to Nibley's statement, not to you providing it.  I had no intention of shooting the messenger.

[zil]

49 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Sorry, Zil.  I didn't necessarily mean to attack you.  I realize you were merely providing the quoted source.  My response, therefore, was to Nibley's statement, not to you providing it.  I had no intention of shooting the messenger.

No worries.  FYI, there's more in the text in relation to what they were doing and the context (time, culture, other behavior) in which they were doing it (that's what I meant by context).  That statement alone may seem worthy of eye-rolls, as Vort put it, but when you consider it with all the other things these folks were supposedly doing, it takes on more significance.  And, none of it appears to be scriptural, so it's all "take it for what it's worth".

[Blackmarch]

On 2/11/2016 at 1:31 PM, richard7900 said:

It seems that a consequence of the Syrian war is an alliance of certain nations who are supportive of President Bashar al-Assad. On the other side we see the formation of an alliance against the Syrian President or against ISIS or both.

Okay, avoiding arguments as to who is right or wrong in this current conflict - which isn't the issue here, is the formation of the pro Assad alliance the formation, or bringing together of Gog and Magog?  What do you think?

(As far as I understand, the war with Gog and Magog is not the final great war (Armageddon). That comes after).

not yet I don't doubt it will help sow some of the seeds that eventually lead to it, but the steam behind it seems to be running out.

[Guest]

On 2/15/2016 at 0:48 PM, zil said:

No worries.  FYI, there's more in the text in relation to what they were doing and the context (time, culture, other behavior) in which they were doing it (that's what I meant by context).  That statement alone may seem worthy of eye-rolls, as Vort put it, but when you consider it with all the other things these folks were supposedly doing, it takes on more significance.  And, none of it appears to be scriptural, so it's all "take it for what it's worth".

Yes, I understand the context.  But I don't really think it changes my point.  he mentions all the evils and perversions of the people in the plains.  Then "to top it all off... they even put nets around to prevent birds from eating the crops!"

To me that was akin to Sgt Friday's comment about the hoodlums who attempted armed robbery (whom he sent packing) declaring,"And on a school night too!"

[Stargater53]

On 2/11/2016 at 3:31 PM, richard7900 said:

...avoiding arguments as to who is right or wrong in this current conflict...the formation of the pro Assad alliance the formation, or bringing together of Gog and Magog?  What do you think? (As far as I understand, the war with Gog and Magog is not the final great war (Armageddon). That comes after).

I'm researching the Gog/Magog war and I'm convinced that Ezekiel, in chapters 38-39, is talking about Armageddon. If you analyze the text, you'll see a number of clues:

Quote

So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.  Ezekiel 39:7

So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.  Ezekiel 39:22

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.  Zechariah 14:2-3

 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.  Zechariah 14:20-21

 

In both accounts, Israel is savagely attacked by overwhelming military might. In both accounts, the victory is brought about by the Lord and Israel repents and no more profanes the name of the Lord. The Antichrist is Gog. He's also the Beast. He's from the land of Turkey and I recommend Joel Richardson's books, The Islamic Antichrist and The Mideast Beast. Richardson isn't LDS, but we could use a few people like him. Mormons know prophecy as it relates to the New World, but they're a bit off on the prophecies of Daniel and John. I don't know that I've ever heard the Beast, the Antichrist, Gog even mentioned in church conference. I suppose that's fortunate because people will be fleeing Europe to get away from the Beast. If it goes down like the Muslims believe, people won't have to pay a tax to not become a Muslim; they'll be killed if they don't convert. It's in the hadiths. Muslims say, "There's nothing in the Qur'an that says that!" But it's there in their other writings. Their [false] Jesus will do away with the tax imposed on non-Muslims because there will be no non-Muslims.

Go to YouTube and search for JOEL RICHARDSON. Listen to some of his videos. Also, check out some of the videos by Armageddon News. They're pretty good.