That's What You Get

[Guest]

That is what a relative said about a pair of missionaries who didn't take care of their apartment and got some critters in their beds.  But I think this is a common thought for some things both great and small.  Whenever something "happens" we link it to a fairly obvious cause that just shows they deserved it.

We all know that there are some behaviors that we are warned about will tend to lead to a bad outcome.  This is common sense.  It's also central to our doctrines that while we have free agency, we are not free from the consequences of our decisions.  But what does that mean we're supposed to do when it actually happens?

When a gay man or a promiscuous person or an IV drug user (or some combination of the three) contracts AIDS, we tend to think it.  But what about a hemophiliac or anyone who gets a blood transfusion?

It happens when a smoker contracts lung cancer.  But what if the person in question is not a smoker (surprisingly common)?  Does it make a difference in how we react?  How we judge? A woman who contracted lung cancer was surprised by this.

Quote

Sometimes I think that I was more hurt by people who kept asking me if I smoked than I was by the diagnosis itself.  Does that make a difference?  Do you believe that if I were a smoker then I just am not worthy of any sympathy because I deserved bad karma or something?  Why do so many people even bother asking?  The cancer is here.  How is asking the question going to help?

How many times do we hear about a celebrity who wrecked their Ferrari or went into rehab or... and we just sigh and roll our eyes?  What about the people who care about them?

Too often we tend to believe that gay man + early death = AIDS, even when the gay man died of smoker's lung cancer.  True story.

The question in my mind, as you may have guessed, is where does this get to be unacceptable?  Is it ever acceptable?  (puts on liberal hat) do conservatives do this to the poor?  How can we judge things like this while not judging?  How do we still show charity while recognizing the spiritual impacts of decisions that truly led to the outcome?  Separate the sin from the sinner?

Edited May 5, 2016 by Guest

[zil]

I think this may be less about linking the sin and sinner, and more about an irrational need for a defined cause of every effect.  To "know" the cause of a thing is to feel like we have some control (or explanation).  Without control / explanation we feel uneasy, vulnerable.  I say "irrational" because in a great many cases, we cannot be certain of the cause (we just like to believe we can), and because at the end of the day, the cause often doesn't matter (perhaps because we already know to avoid the potential causes, or because knowing won't change things, or because the cause is unavoidable).

It's a hard thing to change the way one thinks, especially to recognize and alter one's initial responses.  And most people don't like to do hard things.

I think it's acceptable to recognize possible causes of any given effect, and to make wise choices.  What isn't acceptable, is to withhold compassion.  We can't always do anything to help the one suffering from the effect, but we can have compassion.

(This is not to say I'm successful at this ideal, but I think it is what the Lord would expect of us, and what I strive for, because in that day, I'm going to need all the compassion I can get.)

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The question in my mind, as you may have guessed, is where does this get to be unacceptable?  Is it ever acceptable?  (puts on liberal hat) do conservatives do this to the poor?  How can we judge things like this while not judging?  How do we still show charity while recognizing the spiritual impacts of decisions that truly led to the outcome?  Separate the sin from the sinner?

There is no sin in recognizing cause and effect. Asking the woman if she smoked is churlish and insensitive, but wanting to know whether she smoked is perfectly reasonable. And yes, it does affect our sympathies to some degree. The woman who almost dies from a miscarriage garners far more sympathy (and deservedly so) than the woman undergoing an elective abortion that has a bad outcome. The guy who loses an arm jumping "Jackass"-style from a roof is less pitied than the guy who loses an arm in a logging accident. The pedestrian who suffers a skull fracture getting hit by a car in a crosswalk is simply more innocent in some real sense than the motorcyclist who suffers a skull fracture while riding without a helmet. We all know this. Denying it is a falsehood.

But our requirement is that we not withhold our aid to such people, however "undeserving" we think they might be. Because we are all undeserving of God's grace, yet he still gives it to us. Thus we must do to others. The commandment is not against making a value judgment, but against withholding aid based on that judgment.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Vort

[Traveler]

Cause and effect is not as simple as many like to make it out to be.  Again I would remind the forum that there are no justifiable conclusions that can be made concerning just about anything that happens between any individuals birth and death.

 

Taking a global perspective of humanity – I do not know of anything that must be done between birth and death.  Not in the empirical sense nor the religious sense.  I am convinced that what happened before any individual’s birth has more to do with their life than the choices they make while living.  Likewise I am inclined to think that choices we make after death have more eternal consequences.   Those that are convinced otherwise – I can provide a preponderance of examples that demonstrate exactly what I am suggesting (think Alvin Smith).

 

I am not saying choices in this life have no importance – just that it is not as important (cause and effect) as many are making it out to be.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

25 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am not saying choices in this life have no importance – just that it is not as important (cause and effect) as many are making it out to be.

Then how do you account for the scripture verses which say this life is the time to work out our salvation and that after this life is too late?  It seems to me there's a lot of scripture and writings by apostles and prophets saying this life is pretty crucial.

[Traveler]

9 minutes ago, zil said:

Then how do you account for the scripture verses which say this life is the time to work out our salvation and that after this life is too late?  It seems to me there's a lot of scripture and writings by apostles and prophets saying this life is pretty crucial.

 

Why do you do temple work for the dead?

 

The Traveler

[tesuji]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Cause and effect is not as simple as many like to make it out to be.  Again I would remind the forum that there are no justifiable conclusions that can be made concerning just about anything that happens between any individuals birth and death.

 

Taking a global perspective of humanity – I do not know of anything that must be done between birth and death.  Not in the empirical sense nor the religious sense.  I am convinced that what happened before any individual’s birth has more to do with their life than the choices they make while living.  Likewise I am inclined to think that choices we make after death have more eternal consequences.   Those that are convinced otherwise – I can provide a preponderance of examples that demonstrate exactly what I am suggesting (think Alvin Smith).

 

I am not saying choices in this life have no importance – just that it is not as important (cause and effect) as many are making it out to be.

 

The Traveler

You are saying this life doesn't matter much? I think the church teachings are clear that this life is crucial. The decisions we make will effect eternity. This life is our test to prove we will choose God.

Quote

Latter-day Saints believe that through the process of birth, the spirit children of God who kept their first estate (premortal) enter into their second estate by receiving a physical body with additional opportunities for experience and development. Mortality is then a probationary period in which individuals "prepare to meet God" (Alma 12:24). In the final judgment all mankind will "be judged of their works…which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation" (1 Ne. 15:32; cf. Alma 12:14). http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Second_Estate

D&C 76 is all about this.

Also, Alma 34
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/34.32-34

Plenty more here: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=probation

The Book of Mormon also says that the day of our probation includes this mortal life and also after in the spirit world before we are resurrected. However, it's harder to progress and repent in the spirit world.

 

 

 

[zil]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Why do you do temple work for the dead?

The Traveler

Because it is commanded.  Temple work for the dead does not negate the vital nature of mortality.  Those who are dead will still be judged based on what they did in mortality, regardless of the work we do for them (which gives them opportunity to continue in the direction they started in mortality).  And it's not me you're arguing with, it's Alma, among others.  (NOTE: I think the bit about after this life being too late has some caveats on it, but that's clear enough when the whole scriptural record is taken into account.)  Consider it a rhetorical question, because you really do seem to be dismissing mortality while multiple prophets and apostles have said it's crucial.  I don't really need an explanation, and even if you don't want to consider it, that's fine, but these are public forums and if someone else comes along and gets the idea that Mormons don't think mortality is all that important, I want that thought to be immediately followed by another Mormon saying it is.

Edited May 5, 2016 by zil

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Because it is commanded.  Temple work for the dead does not negate the vital nature of mortality.  Those who are dead will still be judged based on what they did in mortality, regardless of the work we do for them (which gives them opportunity to continue in the direction they started in mortality).  And it's not me you're arguing with, it's Alma, among others.  (NOTE: I think the bit about after this life being too late has some caveats on it, but that's clear enough when the whole scriptural record is taken into account.)  Consider it a rhetorical question, because you really do seem to be dismissing mortality while multiple prophets and apostles have said it's crucial.  I don't really need an explanation, and even if you don't want to consider it, that's fine, but these are public forums and if someone else comes along and gets the idea that Mormons don't think mortality is all that important, I want that thought to be immediately followed by another Mormon saying it is.

 

Let me put this another way – What can you (or anyone else) do in mortality that cannot be repented of?

 

Again I am not saying that our choices in mortality are not important – just that in the eternal view of things it is not that important.   We are told to judge not (which I believe to better mean – condemn not).  I honestly believe that despite what a person has done in mortality that if they were to humble themselves before G-d and beg for forgiveness that a G-d of mercy would just sit back and laugh at handing out punishments.

It is not about what we deserve or earn.  Jesus has paid the price of every sin - 100% there is nothing else to be paid.  Why then are some Celestial and some not?  I believe that it is because after it is all said and done those that desire darkness will find there is a place for them.  And those that love light – there is a place for them as well.  But loving light is a learned disciplined – the warning is that it is easier to learn and advantage to learn in this life.  My whole point is that despite all appearances the very best (exception Jesus) are fallen and will suffer the consequences of sin – which is death – regardless of what you think, do, believe or choose in mortality.  For sure what Christ has done is of far more eternal consequence than anything anyone else will or can do in mortality.  Like I said – there are other things of much more importance that what we do between birth and death.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Again I am not saying that our choices in mortality are not important – just that in the eternal view of things it is not that important.   We are told to judge not (which I believe to better mean – condemn not).  I honestly believe that despite what a person has done in mortality that if they were to humble themselves before G-d and beg for forgiveness that a G-d of mercy would just sit back and laugh at handing out punishments.

I think you mean would NOT just sit back and ....

But God will also know the direction in which they've been headed (see below), and the true desires of their heart (just because they desperately beg for mercy doesn't suddenly turn them into a light-lover or celestial material, even a humble person isn't necessarily someone who would be happy in the celestial kingdom).

Maybe we mean different things when we say "not that important" - which to me, means "trivial", "unimportant", "you're blowing this all out of proportion" or similar things.  Whereas, from my reading of scripture (and pondering and study), it is perfectly clear that mortality is that important in the eternal scheme of things.

19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is not about what we deserve or earn.  Jesus has paid the price of every sin - 100% there is nothing else to be paid.  Why then are some Celestial and some not?  I believe that it is because after it is all said and done those that desire darkness will find there is a place for them.  And those that love light – there is a place for them as well.  But loving light is a learned disciplined – the warning is that it is easier to learn and advantage to learn in this life.  My whole point is that despite all appearances the very best (exception Jesus) are fallen and will suffer the consequences of sin – which is death – regardless of what you think, do, believe or choose in mortality.  For sure what Christ has done is of far more eternal consequence than anything anyone else will or can do in mortality.

I agree with the part I quoted (except maybe that loving light is a learned discipline*).  But I would add that what we desire is what we desire (whether mortal or not) and thus those who desire darkness are now headed for darkness and will continue in that direction; those who desire light, are headed in that direction and will continue in that direction.  That some are light years out (even so far out that they are currently in darkness) and others are a lot closer is irrelevant, it is the direction that matters and I don't believe for a moment that people are going to suddenly switch direction after death or at the judgement day (and there are scriptures to support that (dis)belief).  In other words, I believe that just as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so are we.

*I think it's probable that those who are headed for the light have been headed that way for all eternity (and vice versa), and will continue until they finally make it there, and then will continue a Celestial existence for all eternity thereafter.  While obedience and discipline and law are learned, I'm not certain that the desires of our hearts are learned so much as amplified as we learn to act on them.  But I could be wrong.

Edited May 5, 2016 by zil

[bytebear]

I think we often think in terms of victim vs guilty party.  And yes there is truth to it.  But sinfulness also makes the sinner a victim, albeit a victim of their own choices.  Whenever I hear the story of a drunk driver who injures or kills someone, I remember that two lives have been destroyed.  One person loses their life, but the driver also has lost their life, and will spend the rest of it in jail.  They made a very bad choice which cost them dearly.  The family of the driver will mourn for their loss, and they deserve our sympathies too.  I think when we understand Christ's unconditional love, we will mourn too for the choices of the sinner.  I don't think very many of us are there yet.

 

I think this guy gets it though.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865623402/Chris-Williams-story-of-forgiveness-makes-its-way-to-the-big-screen.html?pg=all

 

Edited May 5, 2016 by bytebear

[Traveler]

28 minutes ago, zil said:

I think you mean would NOT just sit back and ....

But God will also know the direction in which they've been headed (see below), and the true desires of their heart (just because they desperately beg for mercy doesn't suddenly turn them into a light-lover or celestial material, even a humble person isn't necessarily someone who would be happy in the celestial kingdom).

Maybe we mean different things when we say "not that important" - which to me, means "trivial", "unimportant", "you're blowing this all out of proportion" or similar things.  Whereas, from my reading of scripture (and pondering and study), it is perfectly clear that mortality is that important in the eternal scheme of things.

I agree with the part I quoted (except maybe that loving light is a learned discipline*).  But I would add that what we desire is what we desire (whether mortal or not) and thus those who desire darkness are now headed for darkness and will continue in that direction; those who desire light, are headed in that direction and will continue in that direction.  That some are light years out (even so far out that they are currently in darkness) and others are a lot closer is irrelevant, it is the direction that matters and I don't believe for a moment that people are going to suddenly switch direction after death or at the judgement day (and there are scriptures to support that (dis)belief).  In other words, I believe that just as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so are we.

*I think it's probable that those who are headed for the light have been headed that way for all eternity (and vice versa), and will continue until they finally make it there, and then will continue a Celestial existence for all eternity thereafter.  While obedience and discipline and law are learned, I'm not certain that the desires of our hearts are learned so much as amplified as we learn to act on them.  But I could be wrong.

 

What I mean by not that important is in comparison to something else that is infinitely (emphases on infinitely) more important.   There are other things more important than this life.  If we consider that we have been in existence at least as long as the universe – that means that we are at least 15 billion years old.  If we think of that amount of time in terms of distance of one foot being 1,000 years then our journey into eternity is like taking a trip from Salt Lake City to LA California.  Our life here in mortality being less than two inches.  What can happen in a journey of hundreds of miles during the last inch and a half that is going to change where you are going?

The only possible problem I can think of is having gotten so far – realizing that you have now, in essence, arrived at a place that you have no desire what-so-ever at all to be.  In this life we have little or no real accurate understanding of where we are really headed.  This life is full of surprises, things we did not plan on and an illusion that we are in control of much of anything.

Some think that because we are not that much in control – why try?  My view is – why not try? there is no possibility at all that you can fail at what you are trying to do.  If we are going to be called out and die regardless – we might as will swing for the fences.   There is no shame is going for it.  I see regret - regardless of the outcome - in doing nothing and even though iin the grand scheme of things it does not change a thing - but going for it anyway.  The only question is - what do we want to go for?  Money, fame for self or the sacrifice of self for others?

 

The Traveler

[askandanswer]

On 04/05/2016 at 6:43 AM, Carborendum said:

 Quote

Sometimes I think that I was more hurt by people who kept asking me if I smoked than I was by the diagnosis itself.  Does that make a difference?  Do you believe that if I were a smoker then I just am not worthy of any sympathy because I deserved bad karma or something?  Why do so many people even bother asking?  The cancer is here.  How is asking the question going to help?

Here are some possible reasons why people may have asked if she smoked:

1. They are curious

2. They are conducting their own informal research or trying to increase their own understanding about connections between lung cancer and smoking

3. They're really bad at small talk and don't know what else to say

4. They are gathering anecdotes to use in their next arguement with a loved one who refuses to accept any link between smoking and cancer

5. Maybe, just maybe, they are trying to work out how much sympathy the dying smoker deservies.

To assume the fifth answer, ahead of the equally plausible other four answers, sounds exactly the kind of judgement that this person is railing against. 

 

[askandanswer]

On 04/05/2016 at 8:50 AM, Vort said:

But our requirement is that we not withhold our aid to such people, however "undeserving" we think they might be. Because we are all undeserving of God's grace, yet he still gives it to us. Thus we must do to others. The commandment is not against making a value judgment, but against withholding aid based on that judgment.

And this is exactly what King Mosiah reminded of us of in Mosiah 4:16-18

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17  Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18  But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
 

[Sunday21]

Just World Hypothesis. We want to believe that the world is just and that therefore we are safe. The world is not just and we are not safe and this frightens us. To combat the fear, we lie to ourselves and insist that there are no innocent victims. Part of this lie is to assert that all bad outcomes could have been prevented by a wise and virtuous person. The object of this lie is to assure ourselves that we, virtuous and wise people, have nothing to fear.