The Living Christ

[CrimsonKairos]

I stumbled across something interesting today. On another online site, someone said my view of the atonement not happening in Gethsemane contradicts what our prophets teach, and so I must be wrong. It is true you can find talks and articles by General Authorities giving their opinion that Christ paid the full price of our sins in Gethsemane.

Such an assertion is strangely (or not so strangely, as it happens) absent from the proclamation known as "The Living Christ," which both the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles signed and issued on 1 JAN 2000. In my view, this document is the closest thing to an authoritative revelation on the doctrine of the atonement or sacrifice for sin...and it is the only document I know of where every current apostle and prophet join their testimonies into one grand witness. Here is the text with my emphasis in bold. Note that Gethsemane is not mentioned in connection with Christ's redemptive sacrifice on our behalf. In fact Gethsemane is not mentioned at all. What is mentioned specifically are Christ's unjust arrest, trial, conviction and crucifixion. This is precisely what I have been asserting and until today I didn't know the Church leadership did too (though that doesn't "prove" that's the way the atonement works).

THE LIVING CHRIST

As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.

He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary's cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.

We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.

He rose from the grave to "become the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His "other sheep" (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised "dispensation of the fulness of times" (Ephesians 1:10).

Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: "His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

"I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father" (D&C 110:3–4).

Of Him the Prophet also declared: "And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

"For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

"That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God" (D&C 76:22–24).

We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—"built upon the foundation of . . . apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20).

We testify that He will someday return to earth. "And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together" (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.

We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.

[bunnzy]

If you want a full understanding of the atonement from modern Revelation you cannot go past a book that was commisioned by the first presidency and written in a room in the Salt Lake Temple especially set aside for the purpose of writing this book. I suggest you undertake a deep reading of 'Jesus the Christ' by James E Talmage, and then come back and tell us about how Gethsemane meant nothing.

[Palerider]

That which you speak of is awesome to read and then to realize its a testimony of Jesus Christ signed by all the general authorities.

[CrimsonKairos]

I agree, Pale.

bunnzy, I didn't say Gethsemane meant nothing. I believe it was in Gethsemane that God and the Spirit withdrew from Christ that he might face alone his unjust arrest, trial, conviction and crucifixion. Christ bleeding from every pore as he experienced total spiritual withdrawal is not "nothing."

What I said was that Gethsemane was not where Christ's sacrifice for sin took place. That was on the cross. To this give all the scriptures and prophets witness, as do I.

I have read "Jesus the Christ" twice, as well as McConkie's six volume "Messiah Series." I have given this alot of thought. I do not believe "Jesus the Christ" is infallible or a revelation from God. I do love the insights it gives, but I do not agree with every opinion in it.

[Traveler]

I agree, Pale.

bunnzy, I didn't say Gethsemane meant nothing. I believe it was in Gethsemane that God and the Spirit withdrew from Christ that he might face alone his unjust arrest, trial, conviction and crucifixion. Christ bleeding from every pore as he experienced total spiritual withdrawal is not "nothing."

What I said was that Gethsemane was not where Christ's sacrifice for sin took place. That was on the cross. To this give all the scriptures and prophets witness, as do I.

I have read "Jesus the Christ" twice, as well as McConkie's six volume "Messiah Series." I have given this alot of thought. I do not believe "Jesus the Christ" is infallible or a revelation from God. I do love the insights it gives, but I do not agree with every opinion in it.

You make some interesting points but I believe you have some "wires" crossed with Gethsemane and the cross - It was on the cross that Jesus declared that he had been forsaken by his Father in Heaven. There is also something else you may consider if you like. Jesus suffered for sin but he died for something else. That something else is criticle in understanding that Christ was indeed the "way" - even the keeper of the way or path to the "tree of life".

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

It was on the cross that Jesus declared that he had been forsaken by his Father in Heaven.

The question in and of itself does not indicate that the abandonment occurred then and there. If Jesus had asked, "Father, why are you forsaking me?" it would more clearly indicate the withdrawal was happening on the cross for the first time.

It's something we'll no doubt disagree on, but I can appreciate your interpretation as that is the one I believed until about the last year or so.

Jesus suffered for sin but he died for something else. That something else is criticle in understanding that Christ was indeed the "way" - even the keeper of the way or path to the "tree of life".

I'm going to need you to lead me by the hand on this one Traveler. I'm not as smart as you think I am, that's not enough to go on.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

Jesus suffered for sin but he died for something else. That something else is criticle in understanding that Christ was indeed the "way" - even the keeper of the way or path to the "tree of life".

I'm going to need you to lead me by the hand on this one Traveler. I'm not as smart as you think I am, that's not enough to go on.

Try Romans Chapter 5 for a starter.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

Oh, yeah, I know Christ's death makes resurrection possible. Is that what you were highlighting?

[Annabelli]

Not to get off topic but to make a comparison: Stanley Tookie Williams, the convicted multiple murderer and Crips gang co-founder executed.....Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan compared Williams' trial and execution to those of Jesus. Both, he argued, were innocent men executed for political reasons.

Williams final statement before execution:

"My lack of fear of this barbaric methodology of death, I rely upon my faith. It has nothing to do with machismo, with manhood, or with some pseudo former gang street code. This is pure faith, and predicated on my redemption. So, therefore, I just stand strong and continue to tell you, your audience, and the world that I am innocent and, yes, I have been a wretched person, but I have redeemed myself. And I say to you and all those who can listen and will listen that redemption is tailor-made for the wretched, and that's what I used to be…That's what I would like the world to remember me. That's how I would like my legacy to be remembered as: a redemptive transition, something that I believe is not exclusive just for the so-called sanctimonious, the elitists. And it doesn't—-is not predicated on color or race or social stratum or one's religious background. It's accessible for everybody. That's the beauty about it. And whether others choose to believe that I have redeemed myself or not, I worry not, because I know and God knows, and you can believe that all of the youths that I continue to help, they know, too. So with that, I am grateful…I say to you and everyone else, God bless. So take care."

I do believe that there is a difference between Jesus' Crucifixion and Williams' execution; The crucifixion being mercy and the execution being justice

[Adomini22]

Not to get off topic but to make a comparison: Stanley Tookie Williams, the convicted multiple murderer and Crips gang co-founder executed.....Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan compared Williams' trial and execution to those of Jesus. Both, he argued, were innocent men executed for political reasons.

Williams final statement before execution:

"My lack of fear of this barbaric methodology of death, I rely upon my faith. It has nothing to do with machismo, with manhood, or with some pseudo former gang street code. This is pure faith, and predicated on my redemption. So, therefore, I just stand strong and continue to tell you, your audience, and the world that I am innocent and, yes, I have been a wretched person, but I have redeemed myself. And I say to you and all those who can listen and will listen that redemption is tailor-made for the wretched, and that's what I used to be…That's what I would like the world to remember me. That's how I would like my legacy to be remembered as: a redemptive transition, something that I believe is not exclusive just for the so-called sanctimonious, the elitists. And it doesn't—-is not predicated on color or race or social stratum or one's religious background. It's accessible for everybody. That's the beauty about it. And whether others choose to believe that I have redeemed myself or not, I worry not, because I know and God knows, and you can believe that all of the youths that I continue to help, they know, too. So with that, I am grateful…I say to you and everyone else, God bless. So take care."

I do believe that there is a difference between Jesus' Crucifixion and Williams' execution; The crucifixion being mercy and the execution being justice

That is really interesting. I didnt know about that guy. Nice post.

[a-train]

Te be honest, I would consider His whole life part of the atonement. Not just that, but all that He did before His birth was also part of this great infinite work. He is the Lamb Slain from Before the Foundation of the World. Indeed, He is still commenced in that work to this moment.

I think the title of this thread and the testimony from which it was taken speaks much of the Atonement, it doesn't say: 'The Convicted Christ', 'The Murdered Christ', 'The Forsaken Christ', or any of those things. It says: 'The Living Christ'.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

True a-train, but then the whole purpose of the document is not to highlight the atonement.

Much of it was devoted to his childhood, his acts during mortality, and his status as God's Son in the flesh.

When you guys say atonement, I think you mean something different than I do.

When I say atonement, I use it as a synonym for "sacrifice for sin," since it is Christ's sacrifice for sin that lets us be "at one" with God if we repent.

In that sense, when I say atonement to refer to the sacrifice for sin, I'm referring to the cross since that is where wicked men shed Christ's blood in the supreme injustice that drives his plea for mercy on our behalf.

Yes, yes, we could argue this or that about what all goes into the atonement, his whole life, premortal existence even, yes, I agree. But when it comes to pinpointing where and when the sacrifice for sin was made, where and when Christ's lifeblood was shed by wicked men...there is but one thing to say:

Calvary.

That is my point. It isn't Gethsemane. It's Calvary.

a-train, I'd like to ask you a question. I know the last time I brought up my view of the atonement (that the sacrifice for sin wasn't in Gethsemane) you disagreed and held to the penal-substitution in Gethsemane model of atonement.

Do you still believe that the suffering which makes remission of sin possible occurred in Gethsemane? I know you had a quote from a Seventy to that effect, and I'm just curious if you still hold to that?

[Annabelli]

Another one of my examples:

An artist paints a picture in his studio through fasting, inspiration, and talent. (Gethsemane)

Although it bears the artist's signature, it is not consummated (brought to perfection) until it is placed on public display. (crucifixion)

[tiancum]

Crimson,

I would suggest that you continue to teach this only if you can find A prophet that supports your point of view that the Atonement did not happen in Geth.

If you are saying that the sacrifice for sin did not happen in the Garden, then you are saying something quite the opposite from what many of them have said.

please be careful brother. I have no right to officially council you, i don't have the authority, but being as you posted your thoughts and are expecting feedback, i give mine.

[rosie321]

Crimson,

I would suggest that you continue to teach this only if you can find A prophet that supports your point of view that the Atonement did not happen in Geth.

If you are saying that the sacrifice for sin did not happen in the Garden, then you are saying something quite the opposite from what many of them have said.

please be careful brother. I have no right to officially council you, i don't have the authority, but being as you posted your thoughts and are expecting feedback, i give mine.

Those who lived at the time of Christ and were a part never once testified of the importance of what happened in the garden as the pivotal point of the atonement. The atonement that we christians were asked to be concerned with is the cross.

The biblical prophets taught Christ and Christ crucified.

Here are just a few spots to look at

Col 1: 14-20 (*vs 20)

Colossians 2 :8-20 ( *vs.14)

*****1st Corinthians 1:23-24*****

*****1st corinthians 2.2*******

****Galatians 2:19-21******

Ephesians 2:10-16 (vs. 16****)

2nd corinthians

Phillipians 1:18

The latterday prophets preach what? According to the official statement the Living Christ there is no mention of Gethsamene there as a pivotal point as the atoning part. So what does that mean? If there are other sources in the church that say Gethsamene is it either they are wrong or weren't in the Thus Saith the Lord state of mind. Who is really spreading the gospel that the atonement happened in the garden. How far would you trust a prophet if he teaches another gospel? How could the atonement have happened in the garden and yet there be so many testimonies by prophets to the contrary?

The cross has always been presented as the pivotal point. Through scriptures and hymns. Man sinned and had no hope on their own of returning to Heavenly Father. The crucifixion of Christ was a turning point to that. 2nd Corithians 11:3-4. Are LDS really Christian or not then? How do you justify?

[tiancum]

The latterday prophets preach what? According to the official statement the Living Christ there is no mention of Gethsamene there as a pivotal point as the atoning part.

Do you not consider when the Apostles speak in conference official? Are we not to follow their councils when they speak then? Or do they need to come out with a proclamation... I believe in both.

Whether or not the early Christians believed in (or even knew about) Gethsemane... (i believe they did. Just because it isn't in the record didn't mean they didn't know about it.) Our latter day prophets have given us greater light and knowledge. We are blessed with oracles, even Special witnesses that have interpreted it in one way.

One of my favorite witnesses was when Elder David B. Haight spoke of the Vision he had of the savior's Life. He was a first hand witness of all of this lying in his hospital bed.

When they had sung a hymn, Jesus and the Eleven went out to the Mount of Olives. There, in the garden, in some manner beyond our comprehension, the Savior took upon Himself the burden of the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world. His agony in the garden, Luke tells us, was so intense “his sweat was as … great drops of blood falling … to the ground.” (Luke 22:44.) He suffered an agony and a burden the like of which no human person would be able to bear. In that hour of anguish our Savior overcame all the power of Satan.

The Sacrament,

and the Sacrifice

Elder David B. Haight

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I do not write this to contend. I only write this for information. And confirming the first hand experience Elder Haight had. FWIW

[rosie321]

The latterday prophets preach what? According to the official statement the Living Christ there is no mention of Gethsamene there as a pivotal point as the atoning part.

Do you not consider when the Apostles speak in conference official? Are we not to follow their councils when they speak then? Or do they need to come out with a proclamation... I believe in both.

Are they teaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ or not? Are they testifying truthfully or are they painting a different gospel picture? The cross was of great importance to the apostles and throughout history. Now because a few souls say its the garden. Maybe I'm just not "saint" enough but no I don't think I'd follow another person who told me to do something contrary to everything I know to be true. I'd have to know for a surety for myself. Not just because someone told me so. People are imperfect and who knows when they are speaking for Christ or in themselves.

Whether or not the early Christians believed in (or even knew about) Gethsemane... (i believe they did. Just because it isn't in the record didn't mean they didn't know about it.) Our latter day prophets have given us greater light and knowledge. We are blessed with oracles, even Special witnesses that have interpreted it in one way.

The garden moments were known by the disciples and were mentioned in the New Testament. While the saviour did experience much torment in the garden there was the cross, which was the crux of atonement. The apostles following his death acknowledged the cross as the most important event. They knew about his moments in gethsamane yet that was not the thing that they mentioned time and time again. It was the cross. They left their witness for us to read in the Bible.

When they had sung a hymn, Jesus and the Eleven went out to the Mount of Olives. There, in the garden, in some manner beyond our comprehension, the Savior took upon Himself the burden of the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world. His agony in the garden, Luke tells us, was so intense “his sweat was as … great drops of blood falling … to the ground.” (Luke 22:44.) He suffered an agony and a burden the like of which no human person would be able to bear. In that hour of anguish our Savior overcame all the power of Satan.

Mentally he did prepare and ready himself. He did suffer great anguish there. But this is not where the atonement happened. Prophet or no prophet in matters of dealing with Christ, the head, I will not be easily swayed to turn from what I know or believe without much evidence to the contrary.

[CrimsonKairos]

I'm going to reply to your concerns, tiancum.

First, I'm going through and reading every Ensign aricle and talk I can find on lds.org that mentions the atonement, Gethsemane, sacrifice for sin, redemption, etc...

Then, I will compile a list of quotations and we shall see what the General Authorities have been preaching about the atonement in talks and articles. Even if they say verbatim what I say, that doesn't mean I'm right. They could have it wrong, and so could I. Prophets and apostles have been wrong before (the priesthood ban and McConkie come to mind).

That is why we have the standard works...they set the standard for doctrine. But since you are not satisfied with the unanimous message of the canonized scriptures, I'll have to do some legwork because I know you won't be able to rest easy until you know what all the General Authorities have ever said about it. Thank you in advance for your patience while I do my research...

[Traveler]

Oh, yeah, I know Christ's death makes resurrection possible. Is that what you were highlighting?

We are talking about a whole chapter. If this is what you see then it is enough. If not, you may elect to ponder more about the fall of man (Adam) and all that entails.

If you want to teach these points as doctrine and not your opinion - perhaps you ought to consider informing the first presidency and see if it is indeed worthy to be called doctrine and not opinion.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

Why on earth would I do that Traveler?

The Spirit's endorsement is enough for me. I need not tell the First Presidency, "The Spirit taught me such-and-such. Is it okay with you that the Spirit taught me this?"

Gimme a break.

You guys crack me up. I lay out the scriptures that all say the same thing. I cite "The Living Christ."

But that's still not enough. The false traditions of our fathers are too deeply ingrained, and you cannot get past your knee-jerk reaction to reject the truth. That's cool. You may say to yourself, "The matter is closed, no further thinking or praying need be done about this topic."

Me? I'm going to continue to shine the light of Truth into the dark corners where false traditions live and breed. The scriptures and the Spirit don't support my position; I support theirs, and their position is clear for those with eyes to see.

[tiancum]

That is why we have the standard works...they set the standard for doctrine. But since you are not satisfied with the unanimous message of the canonized scriptures, I'll have to do some legwork because I know you won't be able to rest easy until you know what all the General Authorities have ever said about it. Thank you in advance for your patience while I do my research...

I was merely saying that it is up to the prophets today to "officially' interpret the scriptures or "standard of doctrine" for us.

That is why they are here.

When I posted Elder Haight's talk, i did it simply to say, that he had seen it first hand in vision, and he claimed officially that the Lord did pay for our sins 'in the garden". It went beyond mere opinion at that point. It was his first hand witness.

Rosie, if you say that what Elder Haight saw in vision is not true, or say what you know is more true, then so be it. I thank you for your input. We will just have to disagree.

Now Crimson, if you are comparing Elder Haight's vision to some of Mckonkie's words, (the thing I loved most about Bruce is that he had such strong opinions, yet when the Brethren asked him to retract, change, rewrite, etc, he did so immediately) I guess we are at an impasse. So be it.

I am going to continue believing what they have said. I simply believe as they have said, that he paid for our sins in the garden. It was part of a much bigger atonement. I know that if we ask the Lord, in all humility if what Elder haight saw was true, then the spirit will testify of it's truth. I know from first hand experience.

Thank you guys. I will take my leave. I have appreciated the discussion.

What i don't want is there to be any ill feelings. If i have said anything demeaning or insulting, i do apologize. It was not my intention at all. I tried to simply say i disagreed without any of that, and tried to back it up. Crimson, if you find any quotes from the prophets saying that Christ did not pay for our sins in Gethsemane, I will read them. I won't respond any more because I want to stay as far from contending over points of His doctrine than I possibly can. Forgive any impropriety on my part.

I believe the ultimate goal for all of us, as Joseph taught, is to see first hand the events that transpired. A personal, and perfect witness of the Savior is a tenable goal for all of us. I know what Joseph taught is true. I know that Christ is real. He is my friend. He is my God. I love him.

Peace out ya'll

[rosie321]

Christ is the heart of Christianity.

Man should be able to know Christ who He is and why He is important to us. It should be undeniably clear.

All this trust in prophet and leader opinion concerns me greatly. Isn't that putting another mediator between us and Christ? Christ is our mediator.

Shouldn't we be able to refer to God as our ultimate source? Holy Spirit/ Pray to the Father/ In the Name of Jesus Christ. Since when did man have the say over God? Why should we have to go to man as the final say even if it contradicts all that is taught throughout canonized scripture and the majority of writings? Man has been wrong before. Even those in church leadership. Just can't understand why some are coming off so harsh against a fundamental truth (or so I thought) of scriptures. They seem to indicate the importance of the cross and crucifixion. It is only from a few statements that people have overridden the importance of what happened at calvary and placed the greater emphasis on what happened in the Garden. While what happened in the garden is important it is not the event that was spoken of as most important by most apostles and prophets

[Annabelli]

CrimsonKairos: Thank you for these two threads regarding the Atonement; Gethsemane and the Crucifixion.

Through these guided discussions, I have studied the scriptures concerning it which I generally just glance at once in a while.

I now have a strong testimony of the Atonement. I will be humbled by this testimony of the Atonement for a long time and probably forever.

The General Authority has faith in their works so that we may find faith in ours.

[Adomini22]

I am also glad for these discussions. They allow me to think about whats most important in gospel doctrine. Good posts, good posts.....

[Guest Yediyd]

Forgive me if I sound oversimplistic , but does it REALLY matter WHERE the attonement took place? We all agree that it DID take place...that is what is important to me...I have a tendency to agree with CK on this, maybe from my years as a Baptist, but I believe that Christ paid the price for our sins on the cross and Gethsemane was his agony over what he knew he was facing.

I believe that the Holy Ghost and Heavenly Father did not abandon him in the garden, as I read the account, I seem to recall that an angel was sent to comfort him in the garden, he was not alone in the garden.

...but again...does it REALLY matter where the atonement took place? What RALLY matters is that it did...

...just my opinion...