Utter Chaos

[Guest]

1 minute ago, NightSG said:

Since I'm usually just designing to overbuild a simple occupancy category 1 steel building that may or may not even have exterior walls, the theory of "go up to the next common size, or two sizes up if it looks better that way" eliminates a lot of the details for not that much cost.  If I need a 60' free span or something, I pass it off to an engineer.

The cost difference between, say, W10x17# and W14x22# beam just isn't that much when you only need ~120' of it and it's ~1/3 of your total steel.  Keeps the engineers happy and keeps me from spending hours doing math they're paid to check.

That doesn't really change the reason the WTC buildings failed.

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That doesn't really change the reason the WTC buildings failed.

 I'm too stupid to understand the physics and math, but I'm fairly certain that two buildings the size of the WTC collapsing after being hit with a couple of planes wouldn't exactly enhance the structural integrity of the surrounding buildings. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

 I'm too stupid to understand the physics and math, but I'm fairly certain that a building the size of the WTC collapsing wouldn't exactly enhance the structural integrity of the surrounding buildings. 

If you mean falling over and landing on top of these neighboring buildings, you are correct.  But I think that had limited effect since the twin towers fell almost straight down.  So, while WTC 7 had its share of debris falling on it, that was only a contributing factor, not the primary one.

[NightSG]

18 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That doesn't really change the reason the WTC buildings failed.

Of course it does; they simply weren't overbuilt to the point where they could handle upper floors suddenly being converted to airports and furnaces.

(Frankly, I'm more interested in experimentally determining to what extent chimney effect would have turned the large-pool kero and miscellaneous flammable office bits fire into a carbureted furnace with a much higher flame temp.)

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

If you mean falling over and landing on top of these neighboring buildings, you are correct.  But I think that had limited effect since the twin towers fell almost straight down.  So, while WTC 7 had its share of debris falling on it, that was only a contributing factor, not the primary one.

Read Popular Mechanics famous debunking of the 9/11 "inside job" crowd for a more technical analysis than what I can provide. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Read Popular Mechanics famous debunking of the 9/11 "inside job" crowd for a more technical analysis than what I can provide. 

I did.  They said it was a contributing factor.  I agree.  But in my professional opinion, a greater factor was temperature.  I agree with the variables.  I only disagreed with what coefficients to put on which variables.  But admittedly, much of it is guesswork since we didn't have sensors in the buildings at the time of the fires.

EDIT: to be clear.  PM did say that the fire was a greater factor.  There was damage that took out a section of the building already and certainly did some damage to the overall design (a contributing factor).  But the rest of the building was mainly brought down by temperature.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Of course it does; they simply weren't overbuilt to the point where they could handle upper floors suddenly being converted to airports and furnaces.

(Frankly, I'm more interested in experimentally determining to what extent chimney effect would have turned the large-pool kero and miscellaneous flammable office bits fire into a carbureted furnace with a much higher flame temp.)

Actually, I had made a similar comment on other boards.  As tall as the towers were, it would have been a perfect rocket stove.  Combustibles and inflammables would have been burning at temperatures 100s of degrees hotter than open air flames.  If conditions are right, adiabatic flame temperatures could be present.  It goes to show that flame temperature is not just a matter of looking things up on a chart.

I don't know if the buildings reached adiabatic conditions.  But it  It very well could have burned hot enough to melt steel given the right conditions.

[Vort]

Popular Mechanics sucks. Popular Science sucks even worse. Couple of near-worthless periodicals. Scientific American is, on the whole, barely digestible. National Geographic is wonderful, as long as you are illiterate and like pretty pictures. Otherwise, it sucks.

Just had to be said. Back to your regularly scheduled chaos.

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I don't know if the buildings reached adiabatic conditions

That's when the steel starts producing insulin.

[NeuroTypical]

And we all know "insulin" has three syllables.  Know what else has 3 syllables?  Pyramids.  Illuminati confirmed.  

[tesuji]

Back to the OP, I'm curious why you think the chaos in Venezuela will happen soon in the US? The US is in a much better situation. The situation in the Venezuela is a result of huge incompetence by it's last two leaders.

I think the biggest political threat to our country is the growing extreme partisanship on both sides. Democracy works by compromise, not "My way or no way" thinking.

The thing I most worry about in the practical realm is widespread loss of electricity. It seems too easy for terrorists (or just our lousy grid) to bring down power. How long would any region of our country function during a prolonged power loss? You can't even flush a toilet now without electricity.

PBS NOVA did an interesting show about the sun, and they said a large solar flare like the one that happened in the 1800s could knock out power for decades. It would take a long time to manufacture new substation transformers - they don't just have spare ones lying around. Now that's scary.

http://www.amazon.com/Nova-Secrets-Sun/dp/B0077PBPXM/

Speaking of PBS NOVA they did a very informative show about the cause of the WTC collapse.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Towers-Fell-Exclusive-Investigation/dp/B00006ADG4/

I think both of these NOVAs on free online at pbs.org

 

Long-term, global warming will be a catastrophe. For example, 

http://qz.com/681239/global-warming-wont-just-change-the-weather-it-could-trigger-massive-earthquakes-and-volcanoes/

The predictions in our scriptures for natural disasters are all exactly what is predicted from global warming. We knew these would come. Ironically, it looks like we will cause them our selves, due to our massive abuse of the world ecosystem.

 

There are always plenty of reasons to worry about the world. Most of the time they never happen.

I remember when Bill Clinton was elected, there was a rumor going around Utah Valley that a general authority had said, "Bill Clinton will be our last president." Because obviously it was the end of the world (according to Utah Valley).

Sometimes the best remedy for these things is a good, loud chuckle

Even better, trust in the Lord. And be righteous.

 

Edited May 16, 2016 by tesuji

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, I had made a similar comment on other boards.  As tall as the towers were, it would have been a perfect rocket stove.  Combustibles and inflammables would have been burning at temperatures 100s of degrees hotter than open air flames.  If conditions are right, adiabatic flame temperatures could be present.  It goes to show that flame temperature is not just a matter of looking things up on a chart.

I don't know if the buildings reached adiabatic conditions.  But it  It very well could have burned hot enough to melt steel given the right conditions.

Lots of people saying the black smoke is proof there wasn't efficient combustion, but an area as big as a WTC floor (nearly 43,000 square feet) could easily have adiabatic combustion going on around a stairwell or elevator shaft and normal open-air combustion producing billowing smoke in less ventilated areas.  Considering most of the internal vertical support was in those locations, and a good bit of the external lattice was damaged by the impact, that's all it would take.

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, tesuji said:

Back to the OP, I'm curious why you think the chaos in Venezuela will happen soon in the US? The US is in a much better situation. The situation in the Venezuela is a result of huge incompetence by it's last two leaders.

 

The Book of Mormon has an interesting prophecy.

3 Nephi 20

[15] And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people --

[16] Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

3 Nephi 21

[11] Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

[12] And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

Is it really necessary to explain how that prophecy is now in the early stages of fulfillment?

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Is it really necessary to explain how that prophecy is now in the early stages of fulfillment?

Yes, it is. 

I'm not trying to pile on you. In fact, in other threads I've made a point to compliment you and your videos. So it's not personal. I truly, truly hope you understand that. if you don't, I apologize-but again, I like a lot of your posts and videos.

But yes, you do need to explain in depth where prophets and church leaders have specifically said that end times will be within the next X amount of years. Otherwise, when that time passes and we are still here-we will lose serious credibility. That's why Thomas Monson is very careful to speak with his prophetic voice. He doesn't want the church or it's members to become Harold Camping 2.0

[tesuji]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

The Book of Mormon has an interesting prophecy.

3 Nephi 20

[15] And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people --

[16] Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

3 Nephi 21

[11] Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

[12] And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

Is it really necessary to explain how that prophecy is now in the early stages of fulfillment?

I've often wondered how and when this will happen. But you'll have to spell it out if you think it's starting to happen, because I don't really see it myself.

[omegaseamaster75]

22 hours ago, LeSellers said:

That is until we give up our freedoms and substitute socialism for the government our Framers and God gave us. If Hillary wins in November, we have about six years to use up the capital we've accumulated over the past 400 years (and have been squandering like drunken sailor for the past 100) and we find our selves in Venezuela North.

Lehi

Not true, and it is bad form to spread this kind of falsehood

[Vort]

1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Not true, and it is bad form to spread this kind of falsehood

I would like to think it's not true, but it sounds true to me. Can you give me some argument or reasoning to show that LeSellers' doomsday prophecy is misguided? Eight unremitting years of Obama has made it seem all too likely.

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

23 hours ago, LeSellers said:

That is until we give up our freedoms and substitute socialism for the government our Framers and God gave us. If Hillary wins in November, we have about six years to use up the capital we've accumulated over the past 400 years (and have been squandering like drunken sailor for the past 100) and we find our selves in Venezuela North.

Not true, and it is bad form to spread this kind of falsehood

The evidence I've seen points directly to what I said's being true. If you have alternative evidence, I'd love to see it.

Lehi

Edited May 17, 2016 by LeSellers

[NeuroTypical]

Love it, LeSellers.  Prediction of doom: Commonplace.  Specific timeline?  Priceless.  

I've made an Outlook reminder for November.  If Hillary wins, I'll come back here and challenge you to a fun 6 year bet. 

(Full disclosure - I have won two long-term bets like this before.)

[omegaseamaster75]

51 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

The evidence I've seen points directly to what I said's being true. If you have alternative evidence, I'd love to see it.

Lehi

Yeah the historical strength of the US economy.

Lets make a bet if Hillary wins in 6 years you move to Venezuela or Cuba or Bolivia your choice of third world dictatorship/socialist country, and I will stay here in the US...We can compare quality of life notes after.

[cdowis]

19 hours ago, tesuji said:

I've often wondered how and when this will happen. But you'll have to spell it out if you think it's starting to happen, because I don't really see it myself.

1. Who is pilling across our border -- the Chinese?  These are the descendants of the Lamanites.

2. Among several reasons, why are they coming here?  Pres. Fox himself said that it was the tremendous demand for drugs.  In addition to the regular riff raff, criminal element, the drug gangs are arriving here and staking our their territory.  

Just as the prophecy stated, the sign of its fullfullment is 1. influx of violent Lamanites -- drug gangs, 2. the unrighteousness of the Gentiles -- tremendous demand for drugs, which then leads to very bad things.

Remember, you hear it here first.

Edited May 17, 2016 by cdowis

[Guest MormonGator]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Love it, LeSellers.  Prediction of doom: Commonplace.  Specific timeline?  Priceless.  

I've made an Outlook reminder for November.  If Hillary wins, I'll come back here and challenge you to a fun 6 year bet. 

(Full disclosure - I have won two long-term bets like this before.)

It's the bet that people made during the Carter and Clinton years. I know a guy who has been saying since 2001 during Bush v Gore that we'd have "full economic collapse and breadlines." 

It's 15 years later and still waiting.  

i guess it frustrates me more as a libertarian because I have to defend my own views from the conspiracy/doomsayer crowd. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

5 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Yeah the historical strength of the US economy.

Lets make a bet if Hillary wins in 6 years you move to Venezuela or Cuba or Bolivia your choice of third world dictatorship/socialist country, and I will stay here in the US...We can compare quality of life notes after.

Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

That bet doesn't really make sense.  If, as Lehi said, it will be no better than (US = North Venezuela) Venezuela, then why spend the time, effort, and money on the move?

Regardless, to make a bet like this, conditions must be defined.  What are the important criteria to determine if we've "used up all the capital we've accumulated in the past 400 years"?  We've already amassed a national debt greater than our GDP.  So, that pretty much defines it.

What else?  Lehi didn't say.  

What else matters? Political power and economic power.  We're losing on trade.  China is reducing their purchasing of our debt, as are other countries.  We don't have nearly the respect of other nations as we did.

Anything else?  What is actually sustaining us?  Technology.  Advancements.  Development.  But this will all go bye-bye if we continue down the socialist path.  

Our faith?  How's that going?

Then we'll finally be left with nothing more than other countries.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Guest