Accepting Pedophilia: Is it going to happen?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

What I am wondering is whether or not the teaching on pre-mortal existence includes the idea that we chose our lives before we entered mortality--that those who end up being alcoholic, or drug addicts, or philanderers, or pedophiles, had, at least in part, chosen to take on that life.

Remember that the Lord told his disciples that neither the man nor his parents sinned to make him blind, but that the works of God may be made manifest.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Vort said:

Indeed it is. Honestly, I am not sure what to make of that teaching.

Niether do I.  If I'm otherwise a very obedient child of God and my only real sin is that I refuse to forgive pedophiles, that makes me worse than a pedophile?  I don't know what to make of it.

Then again, we're not talking about "forgiving" are we?  We're talking about judging instead.  And righteous judgment would certainly tell us that this is a perversion.  And I'd always try to distance myself from any perversion.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

@Carborendum  Do you mean that the saint afflicted with ungodly attraction might find a way to bring glory to the Heavenly Father, through his/her faithful endurance, and rejection of the temptation?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Carborendum  Do you mean that the saint afflicted with ungodly attraction might find a way to bring glory to the Heavenly Father, through his/her faithful endurance, and rejection of the temptation?

I was actually wondering about that.

The point of making the quote was that our conditions (like blindness since birth) are not necessarily connected to anything in our pre-mortal lives.  But the fact that Jesus answered in the way he did may simply have been applicable to that one man or many or all with "afflictions" in this life.

But is pedophilia an affliction?  Or a shortcoming?  Does it matter?  Do you think that all weaknesses of individuals whether physical, emotional, mental, or spiritual are to make manifest the works of God?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

While I always love reading Maxwell, I believe his concluding statement as a definition causes me to lose all hope, if that is what we are to achieve by the end of this life.

 I continue to struggle with so many character flaws and impulses and thought patterns that I know are not of God.  While I refrain from actual actions fairly well, at the rate I'm working on them, I figure I'll only truly "be settled" and have "become" on many things by the time I reach 90 years old or so.  Others, I won't be "spiritually settled" until about 200 to 300 years old.  That's assuming a fairly constant rate of improvement.

If I've got to be spiritually settled on all of it before I die (at the assumed average age of 72) then I'm heading for the Telestial Kingdom.  No doubt about it.  No hope for me.  I might as well quit right now.  I'm being serious.

The one thing that continues to give me hope is that as long as I keep working at it and keep making progress, enduring to the end of my life, the Atonement will heal me at that time, whether I've completely "settled & become" or not.

I don't think the implication is that we need have "become" by by the end of life. Nor is my intent to imply such. But we must get there eventually.

4 hours ago, Vort said:

I disagree with your approach to the issue, as well as with what I understand to be the implications of what you say. In some cases, "overcoming" an imperfection might be simply learning to live with it without allowing it to lead you to act badly. As JAG pointed out, in the resurrection we assume that all physical imperfections will be healed. I see no reason to suppose that perverse sexual attraction (e.g. homosexuality, pedophilia) might not be a simple physical imperfection that will be healed in the eternities, and that our duty in this estate is to endure it and learn to control it, rather than allowing it to control us.

If you agree with this, then perhaps I don't disagree with you after all. But in that case, your expressed opinions don't seem to go along with that point of view.

I do not think perverse sexual attractions fit into the same category as living without an arm. My experience, and my understanding, tells me that the more we work on our "tastes" to bring them into alignment with Christ, the more they actually align with Christ (the atonement and Grace, surely, playing a part in that). That is not to say that we will or can overcome all such things by death's door. But to compare such to growing back a missing arm or or the like does not work to me. Perhaps that's where our views differ.

[prisonchaplain]

Individuals seem to be predisposed to certain sins. This reality is no excuse. We either obey God or we do not. However, some temptations are more difficult than others.  I may be predisposed to alcoholism, for example. However, since I belong to a faith tradition that discourages all alcohol consumption, I face very little actual struggle. Some temptations, especially sexual ones, may become so severe that the only way to deny them is celibacy.  I admire those who take on that cross. It's a heavy one to bear.

As for what brings glory to God, whenever we choose his ways, rather than our own, we glorify him.  Every day an addict is in recovery glorifies God. 

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Niether do I.  If I'm otherwise a very obedient child of God and my only real sin is that I refuse to forgive pedophiles, that makes me worse than a pedophile?  I don't know what to make of it.

On the subject of Forgiveness many cite D&C 64

 10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

 

This seems very hard in some cases... but then we need to read verse 11 were the Lord explains what he means

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

 

Basically he says Forgiveness is to turn all judgement you might have toward someone over to God and let him handle justice...  This means that at a fundamental level forgiveness has nothing to do with the offender and everything to do with our faith and trust in God...  Which then shows why lack of forgiveness is a greater sin... Because it is a lack of faith.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 it seems that only TFP and I are thinking it's "bad form" to have empathy for pedophiles.

That isn't exactly correct.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

On the subject of Forgiveness many cite D&C 64

See my edit.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That isn't exactly correct.

Nothing in this thread is.  We're all searching for words and attitudes about a subject I think we all find disgusting.  But we're trying to have a logical discussion about it.  It's a bit off-setting.  It's like talking about a sewage treatment plant while eating dinner at a fancy restaurant.  So, forgive me if my quoting and logic circuits are a malfunctioning a bit.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

What I am wondering is whether or not the teaching on pre-mortal existence includes the idea that we chose our lives before we entered mortality--that those who end up being alcoholic, or drug addicts, or philanderers, or pedophiles, had, at least in part, chosen to take on that life.

As stated...there's not a ton of concrete theology on this matter. But I am of the view that we get what we deserved from the pre-earth life more that what we chose. Of course semantically that can be similar. But I'm differentiating the idea of reaping what you sow vs. selecting a state like choosing out a wardrobe.

But it's also much more complicated than that because I do not buy into the victim ideology that is so prevalent today anywhere near as much as many seem to, and I am of the strong opinion that most of the things you are listing here are choices of mortality and have nothing to do with the pre-existence. One becomes an alcoholic by choosing to consume alcohol regardless of what choices or actions they took in the pre-existence. And even though I do understand that certain bad situations lead to certain proclivities that can be deemed, to an extent, as beyond the control of the afflicted, I have a hard time accepting that their own choices had no role in the matter either.

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

On the subject of Forgiveness many cite D&C 64

 10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

 

This seems very hard in some cases... but then we need to read verse 11 were the Lord explains what he means

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

 

Basically he says Forgiveness is to turn all judgement you might have toward someone over to God and let him handle justice...  This means that at a fundamental level forgiveness has nothing to do with the offender and everything to do with our faith and trust in God...  Which then shows why lack of forgiveness is a greater sin... Because it is a lack of faith.

 

This is brilliant.

[The Folk Prophet]

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Nothing in this thread is.  We're all searching for words and attitudes about a subject I think we all find disgusting.  But we're trying to have a logical discussion about it.  It's a bit off-setting.  It's like talking about a sewage treatment plant while eating dinner at a fancy restaurant.  So, forgive me if my quoting and logic circuits are a malfunctioning a bit.

Sure. I understand. But I want to be clear (well...as clear as possible) on my views. I do believe in empathy. I struggle with the idea of admiration. But even that, per this discussion, I have relinquished somewhat on. As Vort has stated, we all sin. How could I not have empathy for another merely because their sin is greater than mine.

But empathy and acceptance are different. What I reject, adamantly, is the idea (which I perceive in my reading of some thoughts, but I might be putting some level of bias into it...) that it's "okay" to be a (insert sinful noun such as pedophile) as long as you do not act on it. It is not okay. I can empathize. I can support. I can forgive. But I will never get on board with the idea that it's just the way they are and there's nothing they can do about it, and as long as they don't act on it then all is hunky dory. And that goes for homosexuality too, in case anyone is wondering.

We are commanded to be like God. Not kind of like God. Not only in actions. Our very hearts must change. Our hearts, minds, and wills fully aligned with Him. I know we won't get there in this life, but that does not change the fact that we must always try (though constant effort and repentance) to do so.

Not acting on temptation is one level. It is, frankly, the first step. It is good. Yes. But it is insufficient. Moreover, it will fail. That, I believe, from personal experience. I cannot just remain neutral on my sins. I'm either overcoming or I am back-sliding. There is no being evil and not acting on it. We do what we are. If we do not become like Christ, we will not act like Christ. We may fake it for a while, but it is empty and powerless.

I also reject the idea that our character, our morality, our thoughts and our temptations to act are equivalent to physical infirmities.

It is for these reasons that I am standing on the side of the debate I am, not because I feel it wrong to empathize or otherwise see the good that sinners are doing in their efforts to keep free of sin.

Edited June 30, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Rhoades]

56 minutes ago, Traveler said:

We may have what we think is good reason to believe a pedophilia has not really repented if they are still tempted but the truth is we must forgive – and I think that includes accepting the possibility that they will be Celestial.  But in the end I am concerned that if there are sins not forgiven because we remain tempted – I am in serious trouble.  But since I believe I can and will be forgiven - even if I am still tempted – I realize I must accept everyone else trying to repent - even a repentant pedophilia that struggles yet with their sins – in a similar to the struggles I have with my sins.

If someone is tempted by something we can not conclude that it is due to lack of repentance, nor does it mean that they were ever guilty of an associated sin.  After all, Jesus "was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:15, see also D&C 20:22)  We know his temptations were not due to past sins, because he had no sin.

Concluding that someone suffering from pedophilia needs repentance is like the Jews thinking that either a sin by the man born blind or a sin by his parents caused the blindness.  It's true that sins (even after being fully repented of) can lead to temptations that wouldn't be there otherwise, but it's not always the case.

[SpiritDragon]

44 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Sure. I understand. But I want to be clear (well...as clear as possible) on my views. I do believe in empathy. I struggle with the idea of admiration. But even that, per this discussion, I have relinquished somewhat on. As Vort has stated, we all sin. How could I not have empathy for another merely because their sin is greater than mine.

But empathy and acceptance are different. What I reject, adamantly, is the idea (which I perceive in my reading of some thoughts, but I might be putting some level of bias into it...) that it's "okay" to be a (insert sinful noun such as pedophile) as long as you do not act on it. It is not okay. I can empathize. I can support. I can forgive. But I will never get on board with the idea that it's just the way they are and there's nothing they can do about it, and as long as they don't act on it then all is hunky dory. And that goes for homosexuality too, in case anyone is wondering.

We are commanded to be like God. Not kind of like God. Not only in actions. Our very hearts must change. Our hearts, minds, and wills fully aligned with Him. I know we won't get there in this life, but that does not change the fact that we must always try (though constant effort and repentance) to do so.

Not acting on temptation is one level. It is, frankly, the first step. It is good. Yes. But it is insufficient. Moreover, it will fail. That, I believe, from personal experience. I cannot just remain neutral on my sins. I'm either overcoming or I am back-sliding. There is no being evil and not acting on it. We do what we are. If we do not become like Christ, we will not act like Christ. We may fake it for a while, but it is empty and powerless.

I also reject the idea that our character, our morality, our thoughts and our temptations to act are equivalent to physical infirmities.

It is for these reasons that I am standing on the side of the debate I am, not because I feel it wrong to empathize or otherwise see the good that sinners are doing in their efforts to keep free of sin.

It's nice of you to be so clear on where you stand and why.

I have to say that I feel the concept of many sins utterly repulsive, while I am admittedly drawn to others. However I'm also not convinced that perfected beings are free of all temptation, although it's certainly possible and even hopeful that complete freedom from temptation would one day exist. I just also can't rule out the idea that temptation is eternal. There must be opposition in all things - we fought for agency and so on. Thus in the eternities it certainly seems possible that temptations will still exist, but the understanding of the sorrow they bring will be perfect and the choice will easy - likely because it's already been made so many times before.

My point here is that to become like our Saviour might not require that we are never tempted (after all we have record of Him being tempted as well) but that we choose the better part. 

So I can not only sympathize with, but admire, those who avoid sinful thoughts and actions despite being tempted otherwise. This is perhaps the stickiest part - separating temptations from thoughts. Supposing the pedophile has an attraction to children just as I do for women, but chooses not to think about it - doesn't let his mind ever go there, is that not admirable self discipline. Now suppose the person slipped up once or twice (in thought only) and prayed night and day for deliverance from these impure thoughts, is that not also admirable?

I'm also curious about your take on physical infirmities. Do you consider mental illness something that is chosen? Is it not completely possible that a predisposition to unnatural sexual attraction is as much due to something being not right in the brain as it is in the depressed, or the schizophrenic? I know it's not popular these days but "treatments" have been available for these kinds of sexual dysfunctions in the past.

Clearly I'm not arguing for accepting the behaviour - or even accepting the disorder as okay. But is it wrong to admit to a weakness and resist it?

[Blackmarch]

On June 30, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Carborendum said:

Niether do I.  If I'm otherwise a very obedient child of God and my only real sin is that I refuse to forgive pedophiles, that makes me worse than a pedophile?  I don't know what to make of it.

Then again, we're not talking about "forgiving" are we?  We're talking about judging instead.  And righteous judgment would certainly tell us that this is a perversion.  And I'd always try to distance myself from any perversion.

No it doesnt make you worse. You cant be given the exact same punishment.... But your anger and refusal to be forgiving will cause you to miss out on the blessings of the atonement and be exposed only to justice.