What if you could end the world?

[Guest]

At some point we know that the world will spiral into anarchy/tyranny and all chaos is going to break loose prior to the 2nd Coming.  What if you were the linchpin who had the power to start this spiral by doing something very simple like buying a particular car from a particular individual who then took that money to... ... ... that would start the end calamities rolling?  Would you ever do that?

At some point things will get so bad that chaos would be preferable to the tyranny.  What would it take for you to do make such a decision?

[anatess2]

It would take for God to tell me to do it.

But then, maybe I'd just organize all the Chinese and Indian people to jump at the exact same time to knock the earth out of orbit.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It would take for God to tell me to do it.

But then, maybe I'd just organize all the Chinese and Indian people to jump at the exact same time to knock the earth out of orbit.

Ok. To narrow the field...

What if you were given this power and were told to make your own judgment as to when to use it?  He who must be commanded in all things...

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Ok. To narrow the field...

What if you were given this power and were told to make your own judgment as to when to use it?  He who must be commanded in all things...

I'd pull it 5 minutes ago.

[LeSellers]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

At some point things will get so bad that chaos would be preferable to the tyranny.

It's happened.

Quote

1 Now behold, I will show unto you that they did not establish a king over the land; but in this same year, yea, the thirtieth year, they did destroy upon the judgment-seat, yea, did murder the chief judge of the land.  2 And the people were divided one against another; and they did separate one from another into tribes, every man according to his family and his kindred and friends; and thus they did destroy the government of the land. 3 And every tribe did appoint a chief or a leader over them; and thus they became tribes and leaders of tribes. 4 Now behold, there was no man among them save he had much family and many kindreds and friends; therefore their tribes became exceedingly great.

5 Now all this was done, and there were no wars as yet among them; and all this iniquity had come upon the people because they did yield themselves unto the power of Satan.

This is different from the situation in Israel prior to Saul, when "every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

Lehi

[mrmarklin]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

At some point we know that the world will spiral into anarchy/tyranny and all chaos is going to break loose prior to the 2nd Coming.  What if you were the linchpin who had the power to start this spiral by doing something very simple like buying a particular car from a particular individual who then took that money to... ... ... that would start the end calamities rolling?  Would you ever do that?

At some point things will get so bad that chaos would be preferable to the tyranny.  What would it take for you to do make such a decision?

I disagree totally with your premise of what we "know". 

I don't personally believe that the world will be as chaotic as you seem to think prior to the 2nd coming. The current trends for the last 200 years or more are exactly the opposite. 

 

Remember:. The gospel is rolling forth and will fill the whole world. 

 

No no way do I contribute to chaos. I believe it would have the opposite effect to what you postulate. 

[LeSellers]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

I don't personally believe that the world will be as chaotic as you seem to think prior to the 2nd coming. The current trends for the last 200 years or more are exactly the opposite. 

That's called "normalcy bias". We assume that the future will look like the past. 'Tain't so.

Just because trends and history allow us to make predictions, does not mean those predictions will be accurate.

The Romans had never had Vandals destroy their city before it happened.

We could look at a lot of graphs with curves that show, until a specific time are declining or rising gently. But at some point, there is a "shoulder" a point after which the rise or fall is much more pronounced and accelerates. One I'm familiar with is the mortgage table (and the graph it generates). For the first 21 years of a 30-year mortgage, one pays more interest than principle with each scheduled payment, but as soon as those proportions reverse, the next nine years pay off the mortgage. But the shoulder on this graph happens a little before that magic date. If we were to assume that the pay off would be linear, the final payment would not be for seventy or more years, but that's not the case.

(This also explains why, about every seven or nine years, home "owners" get solicitations suggesting they can "save money" by refinancing: the banks want you to pay a lot of interest. It's a great idea, for the banks.)

USA is dead. Someone said that he doesn't believe it. But that shoulder is now upon us, or, rather, it passed us a decade or so ago. We're on a steep curve downward, and that curve is getting steeper and steeper.

Lehi

Edited June 28, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

I disagree totally with your premise of what we "know". 

I don't personally believe that the world will be as chaotic as you seem to think prior to the 2nd coming. The current trends for the last 200 years or more are exactly the opposite. 

You certainly have a right to disagree.  I just see the opposite.  With as much good that has happened, I don't know anywhere in the history of the US where those who wish to do good are being sued and imprisoned for standing up for it.  Others are being denied service or thrown out of businesses for believing in family values.  When has this happened in the US before?

And as far as what we "know".  I'm interested.  I'd thought it was a pretty commonly held belief.  What do you base your dissent on?

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Remember:. The gospel is rolling forth and will fill the whole world. 

Yes, but nothing I've read says that it will fill the whole earth PRIOR to the 2nd coming.

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

No no way do I contribute to chaos. I believe it would have the opposite effect to what you postulate. 

I'm not certain what you mean by the "opposite effect".  Please explain.

I can respect the idea that you never want to contribute to chaos.  What I'm thinking of is that the Declaration of Independence essentially says that when we're under "absolute despotism" that chaos is preferable and is actually the right thing.

 

[Blackmarch]

12 hours ago, Carborendum said:

At some point we know that the world will spiral into anarchy/tyranny and all chaos is going to break loose prior to the 2nd Coming.  What if you were the linchpin who had the power to start this spiral by doing something very simple like buying a particular car from a particular individual who then took that money to... ... ... that would start the end calamities rolling?  Would you ever do that?

At some point things will get so bad that chaos would be preferable to the tyranny.  What would it take for you to do make such a decision?

Dunno... If someone offered me the big red button for global armageddon, it would be really hard to resist hitting it so much that it breaks. Followed by getting popcorn, thick sunglasses, and a sunbathing chair.

[mrmarklin]

I believe current favorable trends will continue because God wants them to. For the gospel to be preached around the world, more liberal societies are needed. We can now preach to less than 1/2 the world. China, most muslin nations and hardcore communist places etc are off limits. 

Columbus in 1492 began this trend and with the restoration of the gospel, liberality, as well as an unheard of living standard, the  trend has accelerated. And it's getting faster. I live near Silicon Valley and incredible miracles are being wrought every day. 

The road won't be easy as within the last 100 years two of the most devastating wars ever fought wreaked devastation.  But the results?  In 1918 all the non constitutional monarchs of Europe fell.  Following WW II the Jews were promised a nation and they have one. The UN was formed and the seeds of the European Community were sown. Who expects a major European war now?

Yes, we still have problems, but on the whole, the world is becoming a better place than it was exactly 100 years ago today. Then WWI was happening.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I believe current favorable trends will continue because God wants them to.

Not that I'm WANTING all doom and gloom, but what makes you think we're having any favorable trends and how do you know the will of God?

7 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

For the gospel to be preached around the world, more liberal societies are needed. We can now preach to less than 1/2 the world. China, most muslin nations and hardcore communist places etc are off limits. 

Ok.  The gospel must be preached.  The Church will grow.  And THAT is the positive pattern that overshadows all the evil we see growing.  Actually, China and many Muslim nations do have a gospel presence in them.  But that was already discussed in another thread.  While I agree that the gospel growth is definitely a good thing, I don't know if it overshadows all else.  And I don't see why the world falling apart would hurt that pattern.

7 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Columbus in 1492 began this trend and with the restoration of the gospel, liberality, as well as an unheard of living standard, the  trend has accelerated. And it's getting faster. I live near Silicon Valley and incredible miracles are being wrought every day.

I'm certain we are having miracles all the time.  And yes, all you said is true.  But I'd question which definition of "liberal" or "liberality" you are using.  

7 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

The road won't be easy as within the last 100 years two of the most devastating wars ever fought wreaked devastation.  But the results?  In 1918 all the non constitutional monarchs of Europe fell.  Following WW II the Jews were promised a nation and they have one. The UN was formed and the seeds of the European Community were sown. Who expects a major European war now?

Yes, Europe changed in government.  But what about the gospel there?  It is like tearing down a concrete wall to get converts there.

Yes, the Jews have a nation of their own.  But they are under almost constant attack.  Now liberal culture in both the US and Europe is turning against Israel as a Jewish nation.

The UN being formed was NOT a good thing.

I don't expect a "war" between European nations.  I believe there will be rampant chaos and internal strife to the level of civil war coming very soon because of the failures of socialism.

7 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Yes, we still have problems, but on the whole, the world is becoming a better place than it was exactly 100 years ago today. Then WWI was happening.

I find it odd that one of your primary points was that in the midst of all the wars and chaos of the last century, we had much good come about.  
But then you say you would NOT welcome more war and chaos because we need to do a lot of good before that.

[mrmarklin]

What I'm saying is that the world is getting better, and despite setbacks, in general, living standards are higher, literacy is higher, health is better, people live longer and current developments appear to be continuing these trends.  No I would not call for more chaos. I submit to all of you that the current trends are the preconditions to the millennium, not more chaos.

[Guest]

If the secular/worldly is what matters most to you, then I guess you could say that the world is improving overall. On a spiritual level, it most certainly is not.

[Guest MormonGator]

Megadeth had a song like this. "You take a mortal man and put him in control. Watch him become a God, watch people heads roll."

 

[Guest]

Eve of Destruction

Dawn of Correction

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Eve of Destruction

Dawn of Correction

Tell me, over and over and over again my friend that you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction.

At a little coffee house once I sang "Eve of Destruction" word for word. Afterward the girl singing walked up to me and said "Guy with an Iron Maiden shirt knows that song?" I said "Girl with flowers in her hair and a cool hippy vibe knows who Iron Maiden is?" 

And it was just fun flirty banter, not snarky or rude. She asked very sweetly. And she really didn't have flowers in her hair but it was all my dull mind could come up with. 

(she did have a hippy vibe though!) 

Edited July 1, 2016 by MormonGator

[mrmarklin]

11 hours ago, Eowyn said:

If the secular/worldly is what matters most to you, then I guess you could say that the world is improving overall. On a spiritual level, it most certainly is not.

What makes you say this?

 

Evidence?

This is not my experience.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

What makes you say this?

 

Evidence?

This is not my experience.

 

1. The prophets say so.

" One of the great challenges for Latter-day Saints is to hold fast to gospel standards in a world that is becoming more and more wicked. " -Aaronic Priesthood manual, lesson 48

"  ...vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked." -Neal A. Maxwell

" The influence of Satan is becoming more acceptable.  " -James E. Faust

"... you can live with peace and happiness amid increasing evil. " Richard G. Scott

"  It is a moral deficit, a decline in values in the lives of the people, which is
sapping the very foundation of our society.  " -Gordon B. Hinckley

 

2. Marriage in decline as people opt to live together instead (or not). 

http://national.deseretnews.com/article/4535/us-marriage-rate-hits-new-low-and-may-continue-to-decline.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/2015/06/01/regan-markets-june-millennials-economy/28159539/

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cnsnewscom-staff/pope-decline-marriage-form-male-chauvinism

 

3. Abortion is becoming more and more casually accepted and more common. 

http://www.myabortionmylife.org/

http://www.dailywire.com/news/981/washington-post-applauds-effort-normalize-abortion-amanda-prestigiacomo

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/abortion/article_em.htm

https://www.coursehero.com/file/p4uptep/abortion-is-becoming-more-and-more-common-these-days-because-people-are/

 

4. Fewer people are choosing religion, more walking away.

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-god-dying/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-33256561

 

5. Immoral behavior shown and celebrated in the media.

 Turn on your TV. Read TV guide. Note shows like "Game of Thrones", "Girls", "The Tutors", books like "50 Shades of Grey", and most of all the increase in availability and addiction to pornography. Note that in the last decade we have more and more conference talks warning of the evils of pornography. More bishops and stake presidents seeing families plagued by it. 

 

I could go on with divorce rates, abuse and neglect rates, corruption in government, absentee fathers, people choosing to have children without both a mother and a father, redefinition of marriage, redefinition of gender.., but this is already the most depressing post I've had the misfortune of creating. 

I am a little baffled that it isn't common knowledge and easy to see that the world is increasing in wickedness. It will continue to as has been foretold. 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Eowyn

[Sunday21]

I am trying to learn multilevel modelling in mplus. This is very painful. If you are planning on stopping the world, could you please hurry up about it? Thank you.

[NightSG]

Can I prove to others that I have this power, and can I put it on some sort of deadman switch to discourage those others from just sniping me?

[askandanswer]

On 6/28/2016 at 0:31 AM, Carborendum said:

At some point we know that the world will spiral into anarchy/tyranny and all chaos is going to break loose prior to the 2nd Coming.  What if you were the linchpin who had the power to start this spiral by doing something very simple like buying a particular car from a particular individual who then took that money to... ... ... that would start the end calamities rolling?  Would you ever do that?

At some point things will get so bad that chaos would be preferable to the tyranny.  What would it take for you to do make such a decision?

The Lord through His prophets has commanded us to hasten the work. I would buy the car as fast as I could. However, if I was to disregard this counsel to hasten the work, and rely entirely on my own judgement, I would attempt to base my decision on the principle of seeking to do what is the greatest good for the greatest number. And then it becomes a bit tricky trying to work out whether the best thing to do is to stop wicked people from engaging in further wickedness, or whether there is still some hope of bringing some to repentance and whether the good that would be achieved by bringing some few to repentance is greater or lesser than the good that would be achieved by denying the wicked the opportunity to continue engaging in wickedness.

[mrmarklin]

21 hours ago, Eowyn said:

 

1. The prophets say so.

" One of the great challenges for Latter-day Saints is to hold fast to gospel standards in a world that is becoming more and more wicked. " -Aaronic Priesthood manual, lesson 48

"  ...vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked." -Neal A. Maxwell

" The influence of Satan is becoming more acceptable.  " -James E. Faust

"... you can live with peace and happiness amid increasing evil. " Richard G. Scott

"  It is a moral deficit, a decline in values in the lives of the people, which is
sapping the very foundation of our society.  " -Gordon B. Hinckley

 

2. Marriage in decline as people opt to live together instead (or not). 

http://national.deseretnews.com/article/4535/us-marriage-rate-hits-new-low-and-may-continue-to-decline.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/2015/06/01/regan-markets-june-millennials-economy/28159539/

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cnsnewscom-staff/pope-decline-marriage-form-male-chauvinism

 

3. Abortion is becoming more and more casually accepted and more common. 

http://www.myabortionmylife.org/

http://www.dailywire.com/news/981/washington-post-applauds-effort-normalize-abortion-amanda-prestigiacomo

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/abortion/article_em.htm

https://www.coursehero.com/file/p4uptep/abortion-is-becoming-more-and-more-common-these-days-because-people-are/

 

4. Fewer people are choosing religion, more walking away.

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-god-dying/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-33256561

 

5. Immoral behavior shown and celebrated in the media.

 Turn on your TV. Read TV guide. Note shows like "Game of Thrones", "Girls", "The Tutors", books like "50 Shades of Grey", and most of all the increase in availability and addiction to pornography. Note that in the last decade we have more and more conference talks warning of the evils of pornography. More bishops and stake presidents seeing families plagued by it. 

 

I could go on with divorce rates, abuse and neglect rates, corruption in government, absentee fathers, people choosing to have children without both a mother and a father, redefinition of marriage, redefinition of gender.., but this is already the most depressing post I've had the misfortune of creating. 

I am a little baffled that it isn't common knowledge and easy to see that the world is increasing in wickedness. It will continue to as has been foretold. 

 

 

 

Well Eowyn, humanity is fairly wicked, but some of your quotes are from gloom and doom advocates that are trying to motivate their constituents.

 

i really don't think society in general is more wicked than some of the people last century. Pol Pot murdered millions just because of their political beliefs, and he wasn't the worst!  Check out the wickedness of Chairman Mao or Stalin!

Then of course we have Hitler who murdered six millions because of their race. He also ran slave labor camps that "employed" millions as well. 

Abortion was always used as birth control to some extent by the above mentioned evil men.

BTW these guys were all atheists and preached it readily. 

 

Are we we more wicked?  Probably not. 

 

I'll grant there's still a lot of evil out there. But the twentieth century. Has had the worst of it so far. 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

gloom and doom advocates that are trying to motivate their constituents

Was Jesus a doom and gloom advocate when He said that as wickedness increased in the world, the hearts of men would wax cold? Was it just a political statement to manipulate His "constituents"?

Are you saying that the GA's are doom and gloom advocates and consider us their constituents? As long as you have that attitude, I don't think there's anything we can productively discuss. 

 

[Blackmarch]

Imo charles dickens said it best"It was the best of times; it was the worst of times."

[theSQUIDSTER]

5 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

Imo charles dickens said it best"It was the best of times; it was the worst of times."

This ^^^

 

The reason this resonates with me is that we can also decide whether we want to be part of the best or the worst.  If we're doing what we can to be part of the Lord's team then we'll do whatever the Lord asks of us.  If, as Nephi, son of Helaman, we were asked what WE wanted to have happen that would be indeed a very difficult decision.  I don't know what I'd want to do.  At this point, however, I wouldn't want to be the one to "pull the pin" on the grenade.  I'd still want to plead with the Lord for more time to gather the righteous out from the wicked before the wicked destroy everything... or before the Lord allows them to.