Church issues statement on Pokemon Go app

[prisonchaplain]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 5:46 PM, tesuji said:

Ok, I steer clear of all the things in your last paragraph 

The demons thing I don't understand though. Angels and demons are just people, right? What demons have to do With Pokemon?

Ehhh?!!! Demons, like those who possessed the pigs and ran into the sea, at Jesus' command? Demons like those who possessed the maniac, and declared to Jesus that they are Legion?  Are demons not fallen angels, who joined in Satan's rebellion against God? Do they not, like their master, seek to steal, kill and destroy us? Unrelated to Pokémon GO, I'm totally not understanding the cavalier approach here.

Back to the game...as I said earlier, "pocket monsters" + use of magic = demon-like scenarios--that's the thinking that causes some to pause.

[tesuji]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Not in any major Christian faith outside of LDS.  Angels and Demons are different beings than people just like God is a different being as well.

OK, let's just talk about LDS then. LDS believe that angels and demons are just spiritual beings like you and me.

Angels may be pre-mortal spirits or post-mortal spirits or post-mortal resurrected beings.

Demons are just pre-mortal spirits who never got bodies, those who rejected God's plan during the War in Heaven. So they and their leader Satan aren't going to get bodies. (In theory, I guess demons could also be people who got bodies, lived on earth and became evil persons, and are now post-mortal spirits.  Has anyone ever heard of this case?)
https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-3-jesus-christ-our-chosen-leader-and-savior

Demons, as traditional Christians and Hollywood imagine them, don't exist. No cloven hoofs, red beings with horns, etc. Just like angels don't have huge white birds wings. They are all just people.

So, yes, Satan and his "demons" are bad. But we have no reason to fear them. We have accurate gospel knowledge (instead of superstition), we have the priesthood, we have our covenants, all of which protect us from evil. We should not study them, but we can study about them, to repeat the distinction that Neal Maxwell made ("some things should be studied; other things only studied about"). Part of what we should learn here is how to confront and overcome evil, as I've suggested fantasy may help us to think about. I'm not suggesting we should go out looking for evil, but I am saying we don't need to fear it.

So - What do demons have to do with Pokemon?

Why would any LDS be afraid of Pokemon? They are imaginary creations some Japanese animators drew. They aren't even depicted as evil inside the Pokemon universe, much less in the real world.

Edited July 21, 2016 by tesuji

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, tesuji said:

So - What do demons have to do with Pokemon? Why would any LDS be afraid of Pokemon? They are imaginary creations some Japanese animators drew. They aren't even depicted as evil inside the Pokemon universe, much less in the real world.

LDS wouldn't be...  Just like we aren't against things like Harry Potter either...

But the whole side conversation started with Other Christians belief...  And if they believe that such things open a person up to the influence of the Devil or demons.. then they are right to shun such...  Even if we don't agree on the method LDS should be in firm agreement that you don't open yourself up to such things.

[tesuji]

A few scriptures:

Quote

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7

Perfect love casteth out fear
1 John 4:18

If ye are prepared ye shall not fear
D&C 38:30

 

[anatess2]

 

18 minutes ago, tesuji said:

A few scriptures:

 

Right.

Evangelicals avoiding Pokemon Go is in the same vein as LDS avoiding bars.

Edited July 21, 2016 by anatess2

[tesuji]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

Right.

Evangelicals avoiding Pokemon Go is in the same vein as LDS avoiding rated-R movies.

?

You're saying R movies are OK?

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, tesuji said:

?

You're saying R movies are OK?

I changed the analogy.

But I'll stick to the R movies here.

Follow this logic:

Evangelicals avoiding Pokemon Go indicates it is not OK for Evangelicals.

LDS avoiding rated-R movies indicates it's not OK for LDS.

The reason for Evangelicals avoiding Pokemon Go is in the same vein as the reason LDS avoids rated-R movies.

Make sense?

[estradling75]

Do LDS avoid bars or R rated movies based on fear?....  maybe some do...  But most do it because they don't want that influence in their lives.

Evangelical avoid different things, but the reasoning is pretty much the same

 

[tesuji]

I guess I thought we've been talking about LDS. I don't care so much what evangelicals believe, as far as deciding things about my life.

Is anyone here saying LDS should avoid Pokemon? I thought PrisonChaplain at least was saying that? If so, then I don't understand the reasoning, as I've explained above.

[anatess2]

 

5 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I guess I thought we've been talking about LDS. I don't care so much what evangelicals believe, as far as deciding things about my life.

Is anyone here saying LDS should avoid Pokemon? I thought PrisonChaplain at least was saying that? If so, then I don't understand the reasoning, as I've explained above.

Yes, we were talking about LDS but then PrisonChaplain (a pastor for the Assemblies of God) said this:

On 7/19/2016 at 4:34 PM, prisonchaplain said:

This game has stirred a bit of controversy amongst Christians of the more conservative persuasion. After all, what are "pocket monsters" who use 'magic' powers?  So...are the participants really chasing demons?  I don't get crazy about such fads, but if I had young ones (<10) I'd probably discourage them. Anyone older, I'd just say, "Be ready to fast and pray...just in case."

This is where the angels and demons discussion got started.  It started in reference to Christians (as in, evangelicals).

Edited July 21, 2016 by anatess2

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, tesuji said:

Is anyone here saying LDS should avoid Pokemon? I thought PrisonChaplain at least was saying that? If so, then I don't understand the reasoning, as I've explained above.

PrisonChaplain is Evangelical  so not surprisingly he councils the Evangelical way... which we are free to accept or reject as we wish.

However understanding why they (or anyone for that matter) think the way they do requires a bit of walking in their shoes.

[Guest]

For those who think Pokemon Go is harmless... It appears it is inciting tresspassing and property damage.

http://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2016/07/18/property-owner-comically-tells-pokemon-go-players-get-lawn

http://www.jems.com/articles/2016/07/pokemon-craze-causing-trespassing-injuries-and-worse.html

http://137.117.99.239/news/national/2016/07/14/Irked-owners-trying-to-pry-Pokemon-Go-clutch-from-property.html

[tesuji]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

For those who think Pokemon Go is harmless... It appears it is inciting tresspassing and property damage.

http://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2016/07/18/property-owner-comically-tells-pokemon-go-players-get-lawn

http://www.jems.com/articles/2016/07/pokemon-craze-causing-trespassing-injuries-and-worse.html

http://137.117.99.239/news/national/2016/07/14/Irked-owners-trying-to-pry-Pokemon-Go-clutch-from-property.html

These seem like fringe cases. A few problems, among millions of players. You do have to use common sense and some discipline. I found myself wanting to play while I was driving when I first started. 

[tesuji]

35 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

PrisonChaplain is Evangelical  so not surprisingly he councils the Evangelical way... which we are free to accept or reject as we wish.

However understanding why they (or anyone for that matter) think the way they do requires a bit of walking in their shoes.

OK, that makes more sense.

Prison Chaplain:

Apologies, I didn't notice your user info and I assumed you were Mormon. Please excuse anything I said that offended you. Of course you are free to believe what you believe.

Edited July 21, 2016 by tesuji

[jerome1232]

Fwiw, as I understand it the creator of Pokemon was an insect collector as a boy, he created Pokemon to resemble collecting insects (that's why they have stages they evolve through) and turned it into a fun fantasy game. The creator thought of it when gameboys came out, he thought it would be really great that players could link up and trade the creatures. The games for gameboy preceded the animation series.

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

I guess I thought we've been talking about LDS. I don't care so much what evangelicals believe, as far as deciding things about my life.

Is anyone here saying LDS should avoid Pokemon? I thought PrisonChaplain at least was saying that? If so, then I don't understand the reasoning, as I've explained above.

I do think it is wiser to avoid the game--though I have no judgment of those who don't--even my fellow Evangelicals. Help me out with the LDS view of demons. We evangelicals do not necessarily fear them (Greater is He who is in us...), but we don't underestimate them, either. They are fallen angelic beings, and wield significant power. The Bible speaks of them possessing people, causing them to behave animal-like, to exhibit great physical strength, and that they war with angels, sometimes causing deliverance and blessing to be delayed. One of Jesus' frequent activities was to cast demons out of people. 

[NightSG]

On 7/19/2016 at 5:34 PM, tesuji said:

In fantasy, you can have God and the supernatural participate in the story. You can't do that in sci fi, mystery, etc. - they are effectively atheistic.

Pretty sure Arthur C Clarke's The Nine Billion Names Of God (among plenty of other works) is still sci fi.

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Do LDS avoid bars or R rated movies based on fear?.

I've met some who avoid Dr Bronner's Peppermint Soap because it's made from hemp oil.

I, OTOH, am just very careful with it based on personal experience.  Concentrated peppermint soap is an epic understatement in this case.  You don't have to smoke it to find yourself rather...motivated.  (Imagine getting a full body rubdown with Vicks. When the label says "dilute heavily," it's serious about that.)

[NightSG]

I have to say there are quite a few people around the local university now walking several miles a day staring at their phones that I doubt walked more than a few miles a month previously.

And now that the once-rarely-used bandstand is the center of three very closely spaced Pokestops, and has several electric outlets for folks to top up batteries, it's become quite a popular hangout, getting people out of the dorms and chatting while they wait for the next critter to spawn.

[zil]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Help me out with the LDS view of demons.

OK (per Zil's understanding).  FYI, I don't hear us call them "demons" much.  More likely "devils" or "Satan's followers" or something like that.

We evangelicals do not necessarily fear them (Greater is He who is in us...), but we don't underestimate them, either.

Sounds right and wise to me.

They are fallen angelic beings, and wield significant power.

Yes. But to be clear, they are fallen pre-mortal spirit children of God (to make matters slightly more confusing, sometimes scripture speaks of "the devil and his angels" - said angels would be the same as demons).  Angels (not the devil's) would be children of God who have not fallen (and may be pre-mortal spirits, post-mortal spirits, or resurrected beings).  We mortals also are children of God, and were with them (all other spirit children of God) in the pre-mortal existence.  In the pre-mortal war in heaven, we (mortals and good angels) chose to follow Christ, they (demons) chose to follow Lucifer (aka Satan).

The Bible speaks of them possessing people, causing them to behave animal-like, to exhibit great physical strength,

Yes.

and that they war with angels, sometimes causing deliverance and blessing to be delayed.

I have never heard this taught and don't remember people speaking about this, but it seems within the realm of possibilities, though any messenger from God would have the power to cast the demon(s) out and be on their way (my belief, which seems consistent with what the Church teaches).

One of Jesus' frequent activities was to cast demons out of people. 

Yes.

Hope that helps clarify matters.

Edited July 21, 2016 by zil

[Guest Godless]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

I have to say there are quite a few people around the local university now walking several miles a day staring at their phones that I doubt walked more than a few miles a month previously.

And now that the once-rarely-used bandstand is the center of three very closely spaced Pokestops, and has several electric outlets for folks to top up batteries, it's become quite a popular hangout, getting people out of the dorms and chatting while they wait for the next critter to spawn.

My line of work has left me, as one of my employees delicately put it, "all muscle, no cardio", and a beer belly to boot. I've been meaning to start an exercise regimen of some sort for months, but could never find the motivation. Thanks to Pokemon Go, I've walked a little over 15 miles this week. I'm hoping to starting running at some point since that was another goal that I kept putting off. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

They are fallen angelic beings, and wield significant power.

I pretty much agree with what Zil said.  But I noted she skipped over this phrase.  We both have an advantage, so there is somewhat of an even playing field between us and demons.

The Lord has placed enmity between demons and mortals.  "The seed of the woman" was indeed a dual meaning.  And we as human beings have a layer of protection on us.  They don't wield any power over us except that which we allow them.

Their advantage is that we don't know they're there.  The great lie that "they don't exist" tends to leave the door wide open often times.  Even those who believe in them, though, aren't always vigilant and will allow some influence in to our hearts.

There is a noticeable, physical sensation that is present around them.  Depending on the level, it can be quite astonishing.  (c.f. Joseph's first vision).  Additionally, they don't have the veil over their minds as we do ours.  So, that's another advantage.  They understand psychology better than any mortal.  They know how to play with our minds and hearts.  But we have the truth of the Lord on our side.

Now, I noticed that you highlighted tesuji's phrase "Angels and demons are just people".  Angels, yes.  I'm not so certain about demons.  While Zil is correct that the 1/3 that rebelled were never human, they were of the same spiritual stock as we are.  Also, those who leave this life and become sons of Perdition, would they be considered demons?  Well, the BoM talks about the wicked becoming "Angels to a devil".  This not only refers to those who initially followed Satan.  It also refers to mortals who went to hell.  I guess that qualifies.

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

@zil The references to angelic (fallen v. not) struggle are scant, but here is one of the most direct ones.  Daniel 10: 12Then he said, “Don’t be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day you began to pray for understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your request has been heard in heaven. I have come in answer to your prayer. 13But for twenty-one days the spirit prince^c of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels,^d came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.^e 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@prisonchaplain, FWIW, I appreciated your explanation of how some Evangelics feel about Pokemon.  I don't necessarily agree, but I can appreciate the caution, because I was not a big fan of Harry Potter either, and I stay far, far away from Ouji, tarot cards etc you mentioned.  

[zil]

24 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@zil The references to angelic (fallen v. not) struggle are scant, but here is one of the most direct ones.  Daniel 10: 12Then he said, “Don’t be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day you began to pray for understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your request has been heard in heaven. I have come in answer to your prayer. 13But for twenty-one days the spirit prince^c of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels,^d came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.^e 

Interesting, I had forgotten this passage.  Having now read it, yes, this is definitely something we believe, but perhaps don't discuss often.  The Institute Manual, in the chapter on Daniel, discusses this, and references Jude 1:9.  Seems my memory just needed jogging.