Questions re the math of prayer

[askandanswer]

(New Testament | James 5:16)

16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Does the fervent prayer of two righteous people avail twice as much as  the prayers of one righteous person? Or is there something like the laws of diminishing returns happening, whereby the fervent prayers of two righteous people avail something less than double what is availed by the prayers of one righteous person? Or is there a multiplier effect in operation, whereby the prayers of a second righteous person availeth more than double what is availed by the prayers of one righteous person? Is there some sort of limit whereby once a certain number of prayers is reached, the prayers of additional people above that number no longer have any additional effect? What exactly is it that is being availed by the prayers of a righteous and to what extent, if any, does the number of faithful righteous people praying for a specific outcome increase the likelihood of that outcome coming to pass? Which has the greater impact - the faith or the person praying, or the righteousness of the person praying? Or is it more to do with the faith or righteousness of the person being prayed for? Or are faith and righteousness of no effect when it comes to God's will being done because His will will be done regardless of who is praying or how many people are praying? Or is God's overall will and plan sufficiently flexible as to allow for the variations that might arise as a result of granting the petition expressed in the prayer of a faithful and righteous person.

These questions occurred to me yesterday when I was pondering the two facts of 1) President Monsons continued ill health and 2) the large numbers of faithful righteous people who are praying for him every day, myself included.  

[Jane_Doe]

I have a couple of thoughts here--

A.  The verse you quoted doesn't directly apply to math.  Rather that praying for another and serving them helps heal them and you.

B.  Prayer of 2 > prayer of 1.  Exact multiplier?  I don't think this applies qualitatively (feelings don't fit well into equations).  

C. There's an important factor you're missing from your math: the will of the Lord.

D.  You're also negating the benefit of praying that it has on the prayer-sayer too, regardless if the request is "granted".

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

I have a couple of thoughts here--

A.  The verse you quoted doesn't directly apply to math.  Rather that praying for another and serving them helps heal them and you.

B.  Prayer of 2 > prayer of 1.  Exact multiplier?  I don't think this applies qualitatively (feelings don't fit well into equations).  

C. There's an important factor you're missing from your math: the will of the Lord.

D.  You're also negating the benefit of praying that it has on the prayer-sayer too, regardless if the request is "granted".

Thanks for your thoughts Jane, I always enjoy hearing from you. 

In reply, I make the following responses

B. I stopped doing math in high school as soon as I was allowed to (end of year 10) so I am certainly no mathematician. However, I do know enough to be able to say that pretty much anything can be turned into an equation. When I go to a doctor and he asks me how much pain I'm in on a scale of one to ten, I tell him a number, and his next action is determined by the number that I say. In spiritual terms, a low degree of faith might not be enough to influence a certain course of events, but a high degree of faith might be. Both degrees of faith, and every degree in between, can be assigned a number and numbers, and the relationships between them, are the building blocks of equations. I acknowledge that this is not the usual way to think about spiritual things, but I don't think it is an invalid way.

C. I think my question takes into account the will of the Lord. To quote from the question  "Or are faith and righteousness of no effect when it comes to God's will being done because His will will be done regardless of who is praying or how many people are praying?"

D. I agree that there can be, and usually is, some positive effect of praying, but I also do not discount the negative effects that sometimes can arise from praying, eg, the confusion, doubt and unhappiness that sometimes occurs when a prayer is not answered when or how the person praying wanted/hoped/needed/expected it to be.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, askandanswer said:t

Does the fervent prayer of two righteous people avail twice as much as  the prayers of one righteous person? Or is there something like the laws of diminishing returns happening, whereby the fervent prayers of two righteous ...

I'll answer this in two ways.  Take your pick or ignore them both.

1) The math of prayer has too many variables for us to really calculate.  But it wouldn't hurt to stack the deck in our favor as much as we DO know about.

2) The effectiveness of prayer is not governed by the laws of math.  They are governed by the Law of God.

[theSQUIDSTER]

17 hours ago, askandanswer said:

(New Testament | James 5:16)

 

Does the fervent prayer of two righteous people avail twice as much as  the prayers of one righteous person?

No, more.  Everyone benefits more.

Or is there something like the laws of diminishing returns happening, whereby the fervent prayers of two righteous people avail something less than double what is availed by the prayers of one righteous person?

I doubt it.  Everything I know about God tells me that we observe a principle of righteousness and we get blessed way beyond what we deserve.  Our Father is extremely generous that way.  

Or is there a multiplier effect in operation, whereby the prayers of a second righteous person availeth more than double what is availed by the prayers of one righteous person?

Yes.  Given my previous answer.  I believe that it's more than twice as much.  How much more, I don't know.  But I believe our Father is extremely generous and is just waiting to bless us as much as He can to improve our lives.  But I believe He often "waits" before just granting us blessings because exercise of righteous agency is also an important principle.  If we exercise righteous agency, we draw closer to Him and He blesses us even more.  I suspect that if we were to graph the returns upon our faith and righteous agency, for every bit we do he grants us blessing something more than just a 45% line on an x-y axis... (a direct correlation between what we put in and what we're blessed with) but probably something closer to an exponential curve.  That's what I believe.

Is there some sort of limit whereby once a certain number of prayers is reached, the prayers of additional people above that number no longer have any additional effect? 

I doubt it.  Every prayer of faith is showered with generous blessings.  The more people pray in faith, the more everyone benefits.  Everyone is blessed, especially those who are exercising faith that will open their eyes wider to the blessings.  Even the wicked are blessed, though they usually have no clue.  I believe this is more about the generosity of our Father than anything else.  The closer we draw to Him in faith, the more we recognize His blessings which are great and many.

What exactly is it that is being availed by the prayers of a righteous and to what extent, if any, does the number of faithful righteous people praying for a specific outcome increase the likelihood of that outcome coming to pass?

I think this depends on our Father.  He already knows what we need most.  Sometimes He's waiting to change the outcome based on our faith.  Other times he opens our minds and our hearts to accept his will and increase our faith, even if we don't receive the outcome we were praying and/or hoping for the most.  It's all about becoming one with Him ... not about specific outcomes.  There is a great talk given by Elder Oaks about this.

 

I've run out of time and need to leave for Sacrament meeting.  But I think these answers sufficiently point the direction to what I believe the Lord blesses us with when we pray in faith.  We get so much more for just trying a little bit more, exercising a little bit more faith in prayer than if we don't.  

Edited July 31, 2016 by theSQUIDSTER
additions -- closing comments

[FogCity]

22 hours ago, askandanswer said:

ew Testament | James 5:6)

 

16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

Does the fervent prayer of two righteous people avail twice as much as  the prayers of one righteous person? Or is there something like the laws of diminishing returns happening, whereby the fervent prayers of two righteous people avail something less than double what is availed by the prayers of one righteous person? Or is there a multiplier effect in operation, whereby the prayers of a second righteous person availeth more than double what is availed by the prayers of one righteous person? Is there some sort of limit whereby once a certain number of prayers is reached, the prayers of additional people above that number no longer have any additional effect? What exactly is it that is being availed by the prayers of a righteous and to what extent, if any, does the number of faithful righteous people praying for a specific outcome increase the likelihood of that outcome coming to pass? Which has the greater impact - the faith or the person praying, or the righteousness of the person praying? Or is it more to do with the faith or righteousness of the person being prayed for? Or are faith and righteousness of no effect when it comes to God's will being done because His will will be done regardless of who is praying or how many people are praying? Or is God's overall will and plan sufficiently flexible as to allow for the variations that might arise as a result of granting the petition expressed in the prayer of a faithful and righteous person.

 

These questions occurred to me yesterday when I was pondering the two facts of 1) President Monsons continued ill health and 2) the large numbers of faithful righteous people who are praying for him every day, myself included.  

interesting question, there clearly seems to be something to the math of prayer.  I think an example is the prayer circle inside the temple.  We believe when an individual needs extra help from above that the putting a name in the temple will accomplish that.

[LeSellers]

There's a reason we pray together in meetings and in families and in companionships and other formal and informal groups: there is power in many people's praying (and fasting) for the same thing at the same time.

One of our sons has a particular gift of healing; and he can do it from afar. In one case, we, as a family, were fasting for a grandson to receive this son's healing power. As he "searched" for this little guy, he said he saw the house in Colorado lit up like a beacon amid the thousands of homes nearby. That beacon was a spiritual power of such magnitude that, from Wisconsin, he was able to find and help Iiiiii over the leagues separating them.

There may or may not be an "arithmetic of prayer", but that seems a weak question. The question is, how do we make our individual prayers more powerful, and how do we tap into this multiplier effect? And even more immediately, why do we not do it more often?

Lehi

[askandanswer]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'll answer this in two ways.  Take your pick or ignore them both.

1) The math of prayer has too many variables for us to really calculate.  But it wouldn't hurt to stack the deck in our favor as much as we DO know about.

2) The effectiveness of prayer is not governed by the laws of math.  They are governed by the Law of God.

I agree that prayer and similar things, are governed by the law of God. I also feel that such laws are discoverable and testable. In fact, I am sure that this is what God is inviting us to do.

Discoverable

(Book of Mormon | Alma 26:22)

 Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:7)

7  ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

 

Testable

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 24:10)

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 

(New Testament | John 7:17)

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I agree that prayer and similar things, are governed by the law of God. I also feel that such laws are discoverable and testable. In fact, I am sure that this is what God is inviting us to do.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 26:22)

(New Testament | Matthew 7:7)

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 24:10)

(New Testament | John 7:17)

Yes, I'm aware.  

When discovering the laws of physics It is easy to talk about gravity (a fundamental force) in concept.  You drop something; it falls.  But it takes much more understanding to actually discover the formula with variables, coefficients, etc. to come up with the Law of Universal Gravitation.  Still further understanding is required to add in the relativistic effects into that formula.

What I'm saying is that some of the "variables" for lack of a better term can be discovered or in fact has been revealed (such as the importunate widow and the unjust judge).  But much of such an equation -- even on a subject so basic and fundamental as prayer -- is probably beyond our purview.  At least, such has not been revealed to the public.  If you receive personal revelation on the topic, then go for it.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Guest

[askandanswer]

 

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

What I'm saying is that some of the "variables" for lack of a better term can be discovered or in fact has been revealed (such as the importunate widow and the unjust judge).  But much of such an equation -- even on a subject so basic and fundamental as prayer -- is probably beyond our purview.  At least, such has not been revealed to the public.  If you receive personal revelation on the topic, then go for it.

I'm a bit doubtful about the proposition that we must always wait until Godly/gospel knowledge is revealed. I think a good arguement can be made for the proposition that some valid conclusions can be extrapolated from data that we already have, some, but not all, of which is contained within the scriptures, and then we put those conclusions to God in prayer for confirmation, rather than revelation. And if any resulting new knowledge or additional understanding is generated through this process of intellectual effort coupled with divine confirmation, then I'm not sure that the usual restrictions on sharing unrevealed knowledge would still apply.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

I'm a bit doubtful about the proposition that we must always wait until Godly/gospel knowledge is revealed. I think a good arguement can be made for the proposition that some valid conclusions can be extrapolated from data that we already have, some, but not all, of which is contained within the scriptures, and then we put those conclusions to God in prayer for confirmation, rather than revelation. And if any resulting new knowledge or additional understanding is generated through this process of intellectual effort coupled with divine confirmation, then I'm not sure that the usual restrictions on sharing unrevealed knowledge would still apply.

You seem to be taking my words to mean "all or nothing".  Not so.  But I do believe that the particular coefficients or formulae you seek are not to be found, but revealed.

[CV75]

On 7/30/2016 at 6:01 PM, askandanswer said:

(New Testament | James 5:16)

16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Does the fervent prayer of two righteous people avail twice as much as  the prayers of one righteous person? <snip>

I think since all of this hinges on the Lord's will, I think we can easily substitute "availeth" with "discovereth." The more people fast and pray together, the more His will is revealed--both in terms of the numbers of people receiving and understanding His will, but in terms of the magnitude of light and knowledge He might reveal to them. Increasing faith in the earth is always a good thing! (D&C 1:17-23).

[CV75]

On 7/30/2016 at 6:01 PM, askandanswer said:

(New Testament | James 5:16)

16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Does the fervent prayer of two righteous people avail twice as much as  the prayers of one righteous person? <snip>

I think since all of this hinges on the Lord's will, I think we can easily substitute "availeth" with "discovereth." The more people fast and pray together, the more His will is revealed--both in terms of the numbers of people receiving and understanding His will, but in terms of the magnitude of light and knowledge He might reveal to them. Increasing faith in the earth is always a good thing! (D&C 1:17-23).