Discussing Issues Raised By Das

[Jason]

If you are what you say and are a 'universalist' why do you care so much what Mormons believe.

That's rather like asking someone "What's the point of education?"

Yes, i know, you were one once... but that gives you no right to call our belifs 'willful stupidity'

I'm not bashing your theology. Much of it is actually pretty good. The "stupidity" comment is directed towards things like Book of Mormon archeology, historicity; the entire Book of Abraham deal; the Temple Ceremony being derived from Solomon, or Adam, or whatever, etc.

I could say the same thing to you about being a Universalist. If Hitler and Stalin and every murderer and sinner, rapist, torturer, peodophile who ever took real pleasure out of harming others soul and mind and body, ended up the same 'celestial kingdom' of which you speak. It would cease to be celestial. It would just like where we are now, except forever, and no escape. It would be hell. All the people who lived good lives would have nothing to show of it.

Not if you include in my Universalism the law of Karma and reincarnation.

I never said we would be all saved in one life time alone.

[prisonchaplain]

I could say the same thing to you about being a Universalist. n and every murderer and sinner, rapist, torturer, peodophile who ever took real pleasure out of harming others soul and mind and body, ended up the same 'celestial kingdom' of which you speak. It would cease to be celestial. It would just like where we are now, except forever, and no escape. It would be hell. All the people who lived good lives would have nothing to show of it.

Jason's answer to this was the Law of Karma and reincarnation. I like that.

The standard Unitarian/Universalist answer I have heard is: Yes, Hitler will be saved. Isn't the love of God extravagant and glorious? After all, who can outsin the love of God? Nobody has that much power! Furthermore, regarding the quality of heaven--it's all about God. It's his creation, and he will assure that--as we say in government--"Controls and checks are in place to assure that deficiencies do not repeat.

I do not agree with Universalism, but it does blunt many of the criticisms non-Christians level at as "judgmental" folks.

[Traveler]

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I could say the same thing to you about being a Universalist. n and every murderer and sinner, rapist, torturer, peodophile who ever took real pleasure out of harming others soul and mind and body, ended up the same 'celestial kingdom' of which you speak. It would cease to be celestial. It would just like where we are now, except forever, and no escape. It would be hell. All the people who lived good lives would have nothing to show of it.

Jason's answer to this was the Law of Karma and reincarnation. I like that.

The standard Unitarian/Universalist answer I have heard is: Yes, Hitler will be saved. Isn't the love of God extravagant and glorious? After all, who can outsin the love of God? Nobody has that much power! Furthermore, regarding the quality of heaven--it's all about God. It's his creation, and he will assure that--as we say in government--"Controls and checks are in place to assure that deficiencies do not repeat.

I do not agree with Universalism, but it does blunt many of the criticisms non-Christians level at as "judgmental" folks.

Just a note about all this - I believe that everybody that wants to be saved will be saved. I also believe that those that do not want to be saved will not be forced into it. Jesus put it this way - "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." This is a spiritual statement - not to be understood empirically. Someday when I have a lot of time and some on the forum are interested - perhaps I could offer my understanding of the vast difference between empirical logic and spiritual logic and how we tend to argue things that are understood by the spirit with empirical logic, notions and references - which is a critical error and horrible mistake.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Are you sure Jesus said that? I know it is in a Proverb but am not finding where Jesus said it.

[the Ogre]

Are you sure Jesus said that? I know it is in a Proverb but am not finding where Jesus said it.

Yep, Proverbs 23:7.

7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

[CrimsonKairos]

Well technically that was King Solomon...according to historians and popular opinion.

[prisonchaplain]

Is this not the premise of The Secret, of many prosperity gospel televangelists, and of self-help gurus like Tony Robbins. "Believe and achieve!"

There certainly is a truth to it. I suppose my only proviso is that once one dies s/he faces the judgment. That judgment comes from God, not from within.

[snipe123]

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For what its worth

.

I have only been a member (both of this forum and the LDS Church in general) for a short time (well short compared to some others), but I have never seen PC try to dissuade anyone of their beliefs. As far as I have seen he is one of the most civil and kind posters I've seen here, and I for one will stand up for him. Das you seem to want to create strife and discontent where none is warranted.

I totally agree with you Frank. 100%. PC is loved by the majority of us.

DITTO! He is much like the other prison chaplins that I have known (worked with 3 as a volunteer) which is to say, he tries to understand fully the beliefs of various churches, I assume so that he can best serve the inmate population which has a very diverse set of religious backgrounds...Including non-Christian ones (am I write Chaplain?). At the prisons I volunteered at, there was a North American Indian sweat lodge complete with drums and sweat, and Muslim prayer rugs for the inmates...

I am new to the forum as well, but have found his posts to be quite civil, even possitive, though I would not go so far as to say he has one foot in the baptismal font...hahaha...unless that poster knows knows something I don't...

[snipe123]

Say a humble prayer.

Switch your background hymn from Master, the Tempest Is Raging (#105) to How Gentle God's Commands (#125)

LOL! Train, you can't make me laugh at work like this!

For the new guy that started all this...Constantine did not Canonize the Bible...the question of canonization was not settled for many centuries after his death, and still rages in some circles...:) He did however, call together all the Bishops and try to settle many disputes resulting in the formulation of Creeds which are just as difficult to understand as the questions they were meant to settle...successive synods ratified or condemned the decisions and creeds of former synods and many of the debates modern Christians (including Mormons)have today, can be traced to the disputes of the 3rd and 4th centuries...It is those creeds and other doctrines taught by various groups which have served to corrupt the Bible, more than any deletion of actual text...You can remove "...plain and precious things..." from the bible by interpretation as well, not just by corrupting or removing things from the text...so I would not be so quick to dismiss the Bible...

I fear that too many of us Mormons neglect the Bible because we do not believe it is perfect...For me, it is my favorite book of scripture...particularly the New Testament...after-all it is here where the life and teachings of our Lord are most fully recounted to us who live many centuries after his earthly ministry in Palestine...Rather than calling it a "Constantine Book" I would call it a "Jesus Book" and thank God that we still have his teachings in such a remarkable state of preservation despite years of early Christian persecutions(by the Romans and Jews) in which these writings could have been destroyed along with the powerful testimonies of the witnesses and missionaries who died for thier beliefs and words...

[prisonchaplain]

DITTO! He is much like the other prison chaplins that I have known (worked with 3 as a volunteer) which is to say, he tries to understand fully the beliefs of various churches, I assume so that he can best serve the inmate population which has a very diverse set of religious backgrounds...Including non-Christian ones (am I write Chaplain?). At the prisons I volunteered at, there was a North American Indian sweat lodge complete with drums and sweat, and Muslim prayer rugs for the inmates...

I am new to the forum as well, but have found his posts to be quite civil, even possitive, though I would not go so far as to say he has one foot in the baptismal font...hahaha...unless that poster knows knows something I don't...

Isaac has the gist right. Each facility is different. I work in a highrise, so no sweatlodge (we have them do "smudges" in the rec areas, instead). But, yes, we have Catholic, Adventist, Church of Christ, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Pagans, Wiccans, Asatru, Buddhists, and, our #2 group: No Preference. :-)

I came here partially to help me better serve LDS inmates, and partly for my own understanding. It pleases me that folk here believe I contribute something as well.