Discussing Issues Raised By Das

[prisonchaplain]

Here is what DAS wanted to talk about:

I stand by my previous points and suggest that we move into discussing the evidences I mentioned. The reason Christ was crusified was that He taught doctrine contrary to the accepted belief of the time. The reason Joseph Smith was killed was because He taught doctrine contrary to the accepted belief of the time. Joseph Smith has been and will be villified in his teachings by the new evicences from around the world which he could not have known because they were not discovered yet.

The restitution of all things was not critiqued. I do not get angry with apposing positions. I do get sad when I see a religion based on belief and faith only. You are right we will see each other in heaven on Judgement day. I know in Gods house are many mansions and those who have no belief and live and act accordingly will be justly rewarded in the Telestial kingdom, those who believe faith only is required and try to live by their limited understanding are a better than those with no belief will receive the Terrestrial Kingdom. I do know that Knowledge of the steps to salvation including the saving ordinances outlined in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are necessary to receive all that God has promised and rewarded the Highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

While these doctrines do not meet the criteria of general christian belief on how one is "Saved", they are criticised as not doctrinal based on the bible. This shows that the Constantine book called the Bible was edited to change the doctrine taught by Christ and every previous age age back to Adam. Additional scripture from Joseph Smith the prophet and more recent discoveries of scrolls and plates and codises let us understand this concept.

[Dr T]

The reason Christ was crusified was that He taught doctrine contrary to the accepted belief of the time.

I'd say that the real reason he was crucified was for the salvation of many as part of God's plan and not just because he taught doctrine contrary to the accepted belief of the time (although he did do that quite a bit).

[prisonchaplain]

I stand by my previous points and suggest that we move into discussing the evidences I mentioned. The reason Christ was crusified was that He taught doctrine contrary to the accepted belief of the time.

There have been many maverick rabbis in Jewish history. I'd humbly suggest that it was Jesus' claims to be the Messiah, the Son of God that enraged the Jewish leadership. Roman authorities simply saw him as a potential troublemaker.

The reason Joseph Smith was killed was because He taught doctrine contrary to the accepted belief of the time.

The LDS group also were perceived as a threat by slaveholders in some states. Polygamy was a huge factor, too, me guesses. There were many innovative teachings going around in the 19th century that did not lead to such violence: Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventism, etc.

Joseph Smith has been and will be villified in his teachings by the new evicences from around the world which he could not have known because they were not discovered yet.

The restitution of all things was not critiqued. I do not get angry with apposing positions. I do get sad when I see a religion based on belief and faith only. You are right we will see each other in heaven on Judgement day. I know in Gods house are many mansions and those who have no belief and live and act accordingly will be justly rewarded in the Telestial kingdom, those who believe faith only is required and try to live by their limited understanding are a better than those with no belief will receive the Terrestrial Kingdom. I do know that Knowledge of the steps to salvation including the saving ordinances outlined in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are necessary to receive all that God has promised and rewarded the Highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

I'm guessing that evidences will wash both ways. Weak members may leave for perceived lack of evidence, and a few may join because of some new finding that seems to bolster Joseph Smith's teachings. BTW, it's the same for Christianity in general.

While these doctrines do not meet the criteria of general christian belief on how one is "Saved", they are criticised as not doctrinal based on the bible. This shows that the Constantine book called the Bible was edited to change the doctrine taught by Christ and every previous age age back to Adam.

I would caution you, gently, that the Bible is part of the LDS canon of Scripture.

[Jason]

The reason Joseph Smith was killed was because He taught doctrine contrary to the accepted belief of the time.

I might argue that it was, at least in part, his sexually "lewd behavior" (to borrow a term applied to Sen. Craig) that led to his death. To be fair, there was no foot tapping on outhouse doors though.

[darrel]

It is very interesting that the lds doctrine and belief which is posted on this forum is critiqued and put down by forum members who seem to be waiting for opportunities to shoot the rabbit. I for one think that the dissection by prisonchaplin and others of pro lds posts is an adversaral campaign to dissuade members and others from their belief and faith in Joseph Smith as a true Prophet of God and the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I believe free agency also will bring just rewards for our individual choices and actions. I welcome opposition to my views and beliefs and have no problem defending them with reasonable discussion.

I have started another post with the questions I raised in the gospel questions thread.

[Jason]

It is very interesting that the lds doctrine and belief which is posted on this forum is critiqued and put down by forum members who seem to be waiting for opportunities to shoot the rabbit.

Nobody here is "waiting for opportunities" to insult Mormon doctrine. We're all grown ups (mostly), who are willing to discuss and cast the light of reason upon all things Mormon. You're more than welcome to share your beliefs, all "inthenameofjesuschristamen", but don't expect us to get a warm fuzzy when you do.

[darrel]

(I would caution you, gently, that the Bible is part of the LDS canon of Scripture.)

Yes Most definately it is and will be as far as it is translated correctly. This constantine book is just that but it is all we have because the constantine church went about distroying anything and everything that was contrary to the doctrine they wrongly proclaimed. Many truths are still contained in the bible but without other corroborating evicences they mislead many into erroneous belief and limited faith. The apostasy from the church Christ established has led to the darkness and confusion through the ages. The restoration of the true Gospel was necessary to Help prepare the sincere seeker of truth for the return of the Messiah.

Additional and continuing revelation is essential to help guide us through these perialous times. (Amos 3 :7) Surely the Lord will do nothing except he reveal his secret unto his servents the prophets.

The continuing battle for truth is always an uphill climb. The adversary and his helpers will always appose truth and try to lead away the sincere seeker and defender of truth. I submit that the lds beliefs are usually on the defensive side. I suggest that the apposers cannot and will not have sufficient difinitive proof that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet. I say again that the old sticks are worn out but they still try to use fables, rumors, and old untruths that Joseph Smith time and time again successfull defended before his death and has still not been proven but still peruetuated after his death to this day. The challenge is for the sinceere seeker of truth will find it through study, prayer and inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Which is the only way to Know the truth of all things.

[Jason]

(I would caution you, gently, that the Bible is part of the LDS canon of Scripture.)

Yes Most definately it is and will be as far as it is translated correctly. This constantine book is just that but it is all we have because the constantine church went about distroying anything and everything that was contrary to the doctrine they wrongly proclaimed. Many truths are still contained in the bible but without other corroborating evicences they mislead many into erroneous belief and limited faith. The apostasy from the church Christ established has led to the darkness and confusion through the ages. The restoration of the true Gospel was necessary to Help prepare the sincere seeker of truth for the return of the Messiah.

Additional and continuing revelation is essential to help guide us through these perialous times. (Amos 3 :7) Surely the Lord will do nothing except he reveal his secret unto his servents the prophets.

The continuing battle for truth is always an uphill climb. The adversary and his helpers will always appose truth and try to lead away the sincere seeker and defender of truth. I submit that the lds beliefs are usually on the defensive side. I suggest that the apposers cannot and will not have sufficient difinitive proof that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet. I say again that the old sticks are worn out but they still try to use fables, rumors, and old untruths that Joseph Smith time and time again successfull defended before his death and has still not been proven but still peruetuated after his death to this day. The challenge is for the sinceere seeker of truth will find it through study, prayer and inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Which is the only way to Know the truth of all things.

Methinks this deserves today's "TRUE BLUE MORMON" award!

Congratulations poster!

[bunnzy]

oh, save us enlighten us dear jason who knows all!

save us from our brainwashing and testimonies and our beliefs and trusts.

Yes i am being supremely sarcastic.

[pam]

It is very interesting that the lds doctrine and belief which is posted on this forum is critiqued and put down by forum members who seem to be waiting for opportunities to shoot the rabbit. I for one think that the dissection by prisonchaplin and others of pro lds posts is an adversaral campaign to dissuade members and others from their belief and faith in Joseph Smith as a true Prophet of God and the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I believe free agency also will bring just rewards for our individual choices and actions. I welcome opposition to my views and beliefs and have no problem defending them with reasonable discussion.

I have started another post with the questions I raised in the gospel questions thread.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding. In defense of Prison Chaplain, never in a million years would he try to dissuade members from their beliefs. Shoot, he is more LDS than he will ever admit. I'm still waiting for the date he is getting baptized. There is not a nicer guy you could ever swap posts with than this guy.

ps...PC..make the check out to Pam......

[FrankJL]

I might argue that it was, at least in part, his sexually "lewd behavior" (to borrow a term applied to Sen. Craig) that led to his death. To be fair, there was no foot tapping on outhouse doors though.

JS had a "wide stance" too?

[Jason]

oh, save us enlighten us dear jason who knows all!

save us from our brainwashing and testimonies and our beliefs and trusts.

Yes i am being supremely sarcastic.

Apparently you don't understand me. Well you're very new here, so let me fill you in.

I'm a Universalist. That means that I believe that everyone will be saved/exalted. It doesn't matter what your religion is, everyone goes to the Celestial Kingdom.

I may be trying to save Mormons from their willful stupidity, but whatever you believe, we'll all end up in exactly the same place.

I might argue that it was, at least in part, his sexually "lewd behavior" (to borrow a term applied to Sen. Craig) that led to his death. To be fair, there was no foot tapping on outhouse doors though.

JS had a "wide stance" too?

Hope not!

[pam]

Can you feel the love?

[CrimsonKairos]

So that's what that was...I thought it was heartburn.

[pam]

I'm so sorry. I had that confused.

[prisonchaplain]

I for one think that the dissection by prisonchaplin and others of pro lds posts is an adversaral campaign to dissuade members and others from their belief and faith in Joseph Smith as a true Prophet of God and the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Wow, Das. Sorry you feel that way. I'll respond in detail to you privately, since you've called me out. Suffice to say in public forum that most of LDS haven't felt that way about me.

(I would caution you, gently, that the Bible is part of the LDS canon of Scripture.)

Yes Most definately it is and will be as far as it is translated correctly. This constantine book is just that but it is all we have because the constantine church went about distroying anything and everything that was contrary to the doctrine they wrongly proclaimed. Many truths are still contained in the bible but without other corroborating evicences they mislead many into erroneous belief and limited faith.

I am always dismayed that some, who wish to bolster the position of the Triple in the minds of non-LDS resort to casting aspertions an the Bible. If the OT and NT are as corrupted and misleading as you say, why has the Church chosen to keep it? You almost seem to suggest that the Bible has done more harm than good.

[FrankJL]

For what its worth

.

I have only been a member (both of this forum and the LDS Church in general) for a short time (well short compared to some others), but I have never seen PC try to dissuade anyone of their beliefs. As far as I have seen he is one of the most civil and kind posters I've seen here, and I for one will stand up for him. Das you seem to want to create strife and discontent where none is warranted.

[pam]

For what its worth

.

I have only been a member (both of this forum and the LDS Church in general) for a short time (well short compared to some others), but I have never seen PC try to dissuade anyone of their beliefs. As far as I have seen he is one of the most civil and kind posters I've seen here, and I for one will stand up for him. Das you seem to want to create strife and discontent where none is warranted.

I totally agree with you Frank. 100%. PC is loved by the majority of us.

[Snow]

It is very interesting that the lds doctrine and belief which is posted on this forum is critiqued and put down by forum members who seem to be waiting for opportunities to shoot the rabbit. I for one think that the dissection by prisonchaplin and others of pro lds posts is an adversaral campaign to dissuade members and others from their belief and faith in Joseph Smith as a true Prophet of God and the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

And I, for two, think you are paranoid delusional.

I believe free agency also will bring just rewards for our individual choices and actions.

And are you just the guy who's going to bring those just rewards to reality?

I welcome opposition to my views and beliefs and have no problem defending them with reasonable discussion.

Yes - we can tell precisely how welcoming you are.

I have started another post with the questions I raised in the gospel questions thread.

And I have seriously dated the 2nd runner-up in the Miss Illinois pagent when I younger. What about it?

[Snow]

Yes Most definately it is and will be as far as it is translated correctly. This constantine book is just that but it is all we have because the constantine church went about distroying anything and everything that was contrary to the doctrine they wrongly proclaimed.

Clever. Prophets and Apostle call it the Word of God and you refer to it derisively a the 'constantine book,' yet you claim that it is someone else who is tearing down LDS beliefs. Besides which, it ain't the constantine book. He didn't set the canon, nor does his name start with a lower case "c," nor does "destroy" have an "i" in it.

Many truths are still contained in the bible but without other corroborating evicences they mislead many into erroneous belief and limited faith. The apostasy from the church Christ established has led to the darkness and confusion through the ages. The restoration of the true Gospel was necessary to Help prepare the sincere seeker of truth for the return of the Messiah.

Additional and continuing revelation is essential to help guide us through these perialous times. (Amos 3 :7) Surely the Lord will do nothing except he reveal his secret unto his servents the prophets.

The continuing battle for truth is always an uphill climb. The adversary and his helpers will always appose truth and try to lead away the sincere seeker and defender of truth. I submit that the lds beliefs are usually on the defensive side. I suggest that the apposers cannot and will not have sufficient difinitive proof that Joseph Smith was not a Prophet. I say again that the old sticks are worn out but they still try to use fables, rumors, and old untruths that Joseph Smith time and time again successfull defended before his death and has still not been proven but still peruetuated after his death to this day. The challenge is for the sinceere seeker of truth will find it through study, prayer and inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Which is the only way to Know the truth of all things.

Is this adversary of which you speak apposed to a spell checker? If so, what evicences of it are there?

[a-train]

Snow: I'm rolling on the floor. We gotta give the newb a break, but it ain't gonna be easy.

Das: Don't get too fired up here. This is actually one of the friendliest forums with an LDS theme I've seen. Your paranoia is rubbing off on me to the point that I am wondering if you are the gnarliest troll of all time who comes in as a fired up Mormon looking to defend the faith but deep down is an anti looking to mock.

Just relax.

Take a deep breath.

Say a humble prayer.

Switch your background hymn from Master, the Tempest Is Raging (#105) to How Gentle God's Commands (#125)

Build relationships of trust.

Did you serve a mission? Tell us about yourself.

-a-train

[bunnzy]

If you are what you say and are a 'universalist' why do you care so much what Mormons believe. Yes, i know, you were one once... but that gives you no right to call our belifs 'willful stupidity' I could say the same thing to you about being a Universalist. If Hitler and Stalin and every murderer and sinner, rapist, torturer, peodophile who ever took real pleasure out of harming others soul and mind and body, ended up the same 'celestial kingdom' of which you speak. It would cease to be celestial. It would just like where we are now, except forever, and no escape. It would be hell. All the people who lived good lives would have nothing to show of it.

You are no better than those who hammer on about the darwinist theory that we have no pourpose, when we die it is the end, where were we before this life in your eyes Jason? Why are we here if we all end up in the same place.

Oh, and im so sorry my posts dont number in the thousands, i guess that discredits my beliefs and opinions and that im less of a person than you. Just because im 'new' doesnt mean you are better than me.

[Snow]

You are no better than those who hammer on about the darwinist theory that we have no pourpose, when we die it is the end, where were we before this life in your eyes Jason? Why are we here if we all end up in the same place.

Uh - me thinks you don't understand what a "Darwinist" is. I am a Darwinist of sorts - I accept evolution. I believe that we have a purpose - both before and after we die.

Oh, and im so sorry my posts dont number in the thousands, i guess that discredits my beliefs and opinions and that im less of a person than you. Just because im 'new' doesnt mean you are better than me.

It ain't the number of the posts that count - it be the quality.

DARWIN FOR PRESIDENT!

[Traveler]

Sometimes I believe we do history an injustice when we say that such and such is the reason for some thing that happened. Seldom do the gates or doors of history swing on one hinge. Most likely there are many factors that contribute to important events of history.

In the cases of Joseph Smith and Jesus the Christ we can be sure that there were more than religious factors (doctrine) at play in their death. Besides religious factors there were political, social, and economic factors. As we study the rich evidence left to us by historians concerning Joseph Smith and Jesus we may take many view and try to understand theses view from our current perspective.

Personally I am of the mind that for many, doctrine is just a cog in their power machine. Often it is not about truth or about bringing light and understanding as it is saying, “I am right and you are wrong.” Another way of saying, “I am better than you.” When action and deeds would demonstrate otherwise.

Although there are some similarities in the crucifixion of Christ and the martyrdom of Joseph we must be careful not to over simplify the role each projected into the eternal consequence of their dying.

I will speak to my opinion about the death of Joseph Smith Jr. I regret that religion played the role it did. It is sad that so many Christian leaders of the time did little or nothing to prevent or advise their members about participating in such a thing and not much more afterwards to bring about reconciliation. I congratulate PC on his efforts to bring an attitude of reconciliation. I also regret that many LDS (including myself) have used this and other events of history to maintain an attitude holier than thou.

Neither the death of Jesus or Joseph should be used to think anyone trying to live a good life today should be discouraged in their religious efforts – what ever their religious devotion is. It is time to do the right thing and cheer the right – regardless of who makes the effort. We all have sad things in our past. Let us quit living in the past and prepare for what is coming very soon in all our futures.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Yes Most definately it is and will be as far as it is translated correctly. This constantine book is just that but it is all we have because the constantine church went about distroying anything and everything that was contrary to the doctrine they wrongly proclaimed. Many truths are still contained in the bible but without other corroborating evicences they mislead many into erroneous belief and limited faith. The apostasy from the church Christ established has led to the darkness and confusion through the ages.

Thank you for posting - some day I would like to enjoy a personal discussion. I would, however, point out that Constantine had little to do with establishing what scriptures and version of ancient text would be most considered in the canon as it is corrently presented through out the many modern versions (which hardly indicates that a real canon of the Bible even exist today). I believe if we were to look at the largest single contributor to our modern Biblical canonic text it would be Charlemagne and diffidently not Constantine (who many feel was never "really" a Christian).

The Traveler