Mormons for Hillary

[Guest MormonGator]

23 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Okay not American but still...Who?

There is a D-list candidate (sorry everyone, it's the truth) who is running for president. His name is Evan McMullin and he has as of a chance as you do. 

[Sunday21]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

There is a D-list candidate (sorry everyone, it's the truth) who is running for president. His name is Evan McMullin and he has as of a chance as you do. 

Hey I could give it a try! Oh yeah have to be born in the USA! 

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Hey I could give it a try! Oh yeah have to be born in the USA! 

 I'll make a deal. If we get Trump-we'll swap him for Trudeau. And I don't even like Justin! (Sorry @Sunday21 Red Tory here who supported Harper!) 

[Sunday21]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 I'll make a deal. If we get Trump-we'll swap him for Trudeau. And I don't even like Justin! (Sorry @Sunday21 Red Tory here who supported Harper!) 

Actually would you mind handing over Obama? When you are through with him? We love that guy here. 

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Actually would you mind handing over Obama? When you are through with him? We love that guy here. 

Western Canada doesn't. I have good friends in Calgary and they despise Obama. There is a lot of that out there. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by MormonGator

[Sunday21]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Western Canada doesn't. I have good friends in Calgary and they despise Obama. 

Red necks! Are these lds friend?Actually Alberta just elected the NDP which is quite left. They promised $25/day daycare.

http://thewandereronline.com/alberta-election-2015-platform-summaries-jesse-werkman/

[Guest MormonGator]

21 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Are these lds friend?

Basically agnostic. 

[Sunday21]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Basically agnostic. 

Ahhh. Old stock albertans. Nice people. 

[Guest MormonGator]

18 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Ahhh. Old stock albertans. Nice people. 

Very much so! 

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Actually would you mind handing over Obama? When you are through with him? We love that guy here. 

You should have said something eight years ago.  I would have paid for the one way plane tickets at my own expense. 

[prisonchaplain]

4 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Okay not American but still...Who?

Evan McMullin  https://www.evanmcmullin.com/issues

[Sunday21]

5 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Evan McMullin  https://www.evanmcmullin.com/issues

Thank you! So he is the Former Cia Mormon candidate. thank you for posting!

[anatess2]

14 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

@anatess2 Don't worry about who I "like."  Mr. Trump does not need my like, he wants my vote.  You are right that basic respect is far more essential than notions of dignity and class in today's political environment.  Still, can't help but let it be known that this old codger preferred the days when Romney/Reagan were just standard operating procedure on both sides of the aisle.

I know what you mean.  My uncle is the epitome of dignity and class.  There is that element of role model behavior that is admirable in leadership.

This not-so-old-i-don't-think codger is sick of living with the veneer of dignity and class that wraps the dirty politician, though.  Growing up in a political family, putting up with the pretense of dignity and class was suffocating.  It's a 24/7 acting routine where every single one of our actions is pre-empted by... "What will the people say?".  And then, of course, the people is just fine being crass themselves.  My uncle, though, is dignity and class through and through.  Yes, he has major flaws - even a child out of wedlock in divorce-is-illegal-Philippines - but he doesn't try to hide it or explain it away.  It's just out there for voters to see but somehow, it doesn't detract from his dignity.

Most politicians though... dignity and class on the outside hiding the worms on the inside.  What's even worse... if you're Bisaya speaking with a Bisaya accent, you're automatically class-less.  Because... the Tagalogs dictate the meaning of Class.

I, for one, am not bothered that we finally broke through that stupidity and elected a redefinition of political decorum in President Duterte.  Senator DeLima can try to take him down with her western-English-laced dignity and class but we are wise to all that now.  DeLima is the epitome of dignity and class veneer hiding the ugly truths of rampant corruption embraced by western administrations worldwide.

It will be a good day in America if that media-defined political correctness that dictates the rules of American dignity and class is finally dead.  It is sad to see that Americans are more concerned about somebody calling a bombing a bombing than the bombing itself... and Americans go apoplectic over a Skittles metaphor as without dignity and class.  That kind of dignity and class has to die.  The sooner the better.

Edited September 22, 2016 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

 @anatess2 It's post like the last one that make me appreciate your writing so much.  You are much more enthusiastic about Mr. Trump than I am, but given your experiences in life, and your well-earned perspective, I can appreciate what you express so much more.  Many Americans feel passed over and yes "deplored" this election cycle.  Trump's bluntness (which I believe is both planned and natural for him) wins him big points with those who are tired of being told to be quiet because of their race or gender.  It's interesting that some Hispanics and African-Americans are amongst this group.  Women too.  After all, as frustrating as it is for the white guy, it's just as condescending to the non-white female (there, there, you poor thing, we'll let you go first).  Your example of Duterte (and I might add Putin) brings your point home with clarity.  I still prefer the days of civility, even if it was a veneer, but I also get that this time around I'm in a distinct minority.  You helped me see why.  Thank you.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Hillary could have made a very good play for Utah votes based on anti-Trump sentiment; but she's bungling it by trying to win long-term converts rather than single-election protest votes.  Most conservative Mormons have already made peace with the idea that one can embrace LDS ideas of charity and respect towards women, while still being deeply uncomfortable with second-wave feminism and a "social justice" political agenda; and being hectored like this just reminds us of how deeply we hate Hillary.  Her gambit already seems to be backfiring.  From what I know of the Utah polls Trump is pulling comfortably ahead of HIllary, and while McMullin still can't break the 9% mark he does seem to have pretty much stalled Johnson's momentum. 

That said, I still think Trump is a bad guy (see this earlier post). And yeah, so is Hillary; but we're used to Democrats serving up bad guys as presidential nominees--the million-dollar question is whether we are going to demand better of the GOP.  What happens when there is no longer a major political party in the United States that expects its candidates to play by the rules of integrity, honor, vision, and all-around knowledgeability that make a democratic republic function?  What are the ramifications when everyone--not just the DNC--agrees that the successful candidate will be the one who is the most flagrant liar, the most flamboyant predator, and the most gleeful ignoramus?

From a spiritual standpoint, I agree with this writer that Trump's acceptance in the broader Christian community represents a form of spiritual poison:

Quote

A Clinton Administration may see the church besieged from the outside, but a Trump Administration will see the church poisoned from within. . . .

Christians looking for a strong man to protect the church instead of the strongest man who conquered death is a terrible thing to see.  Many Christian leaders are engaging in a kind of syncretism, trying to blend patriotism with Christianity. They seemingly argue that if the nation falls, the church falls and for the church to rise the country must rise. But Christ has already risen so the true church is in no danger of falling.

I agree with this.  Whatever Clinton's designs may be, our democratic republic cannot long withstand the complete rejection of anything resembling a political conscience.  Paradoxically Trump's loss gives the Republican Party four years to save its own soul, and thence--perhaps--the nation's.  His victory means that we should redouble our efforts to build a Zion that can withstand the inevitable, and probably impending, fall of this republic--at which time, as Mormons, we will probably want to watch our backs--just as the folks unfortunate enough to live under Duterte's rule currently do.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[prisonchaplain]

@Just_A_Guy  Maybe this thought will offer some solace...Trump is a protest vote.  Yes, he's a tough guy who will stand up to Anti-Americanism at home and abroad. He'll push back against politically correct race and gender preferences.  He'll push back against the "gender fluidity" of the left.  He'll push back against those attempting to box-in religious liberties.  We've vetted his personal and personality failures many times here.  We've lamented his lack of political experience, and questioned some of his business claims.  Still, HRC is an ideological enemy.  She loathes conservative spirituality.  She will intentionally try to hurt us.  So, do we accept (THIS TIME) the deeply troubling advocate, or do we invite our opponent to stick the gun to our head and yell, "Shoot!  Shoot!"  Bottom line:  Trump will not set any precedent.

[anatess2]

22 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Trump is a protest vote. 

He may be one for Americans, but he is not one for me.  He is the sanity-check vote.  American and European political leadership have made a mess of the world for decades - doesn't matter who's at the helm.  Both political and economic.  This idea of multiculturalism and globalism is a dismal failure.  There is another idea out there... something totally out of the major parties' box.  Why not give it a shot to see if it works?

So you're thinking... but but but the social aspects... Trump is morally bankrupt (to which I disagree, but besides the point)... you can't really get any worse in 4 years than a generation who are so confused they don't even know anymore what bathrooms they're supposed to use and a burning Charlotte where a black man killed by a black cop in a black-majority city council under a black attorney general under a black president blames the death on white racists.

 

Edited September 22, 2016 by anatess2

[Just_A_Guy]

27 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Just_A_Guy  Maybe this thought will offer some solace...Trump is a protest vote. 

Trump--like Johnson, McMullin, Stein, the Constitution Party's guy, or anyone one chooses to write onto their ballot--is a protest vote as long as he loses.  If he wins, he's the President and the tone-setter for political discourse and for the party's strategy for the foreseeable future.

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Yes, he's a tough guy who will stand up to Anti-Americanism at home and abroad.

Why do we think this?  If ever we needed a tough guy who would stand up, it was in the aftermath of Obama's election.  Trump spent that time period toadying up to the White House and giving Hillary money.

Quote

He'll push back against politically correct race and gender preferences.  He'll push back against the "gender fluidity" of the left. 

What evidence do we have that he would actually do this, when he is on record as opposing North Carolina's "bathroom law" (which allowed private property owners to designate gender-specific bathrooms), opened up Trump Tower's ladies' rooms to whoever feels inclined to go in, and has has generally been running leftwards on gender issues (paid maternity leave, etc) over the past month?

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He'll push back against those attempting to box-in religious liberties. 

That strikes me as doubtful.  See above re North Carolina statute; see also, his rhetoric on Muslims.

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Still, HRC is an ideological enemy. 

Sure; but the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

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She loathes conservative spirituality.

I'm not convinced she has any more distaste for it than Trump does.

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She will intentionally try to hurt us. 

Two peas in a pod on this one.  Hillary may run you over if you're in her way; but Trump will back up and hit you again to make sure you're dead.

[NightSG]

7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Sure; but the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

The enemy of my enemy is at least a tactical advantage for me as long as they're using their resources against each other..

Quote

Two peas in a pod on this one.  Hillary may run you over if you're in her way; but Trump will back up and hit you again to make sure you're dead.

Only if it's profitable.

[Just_A_Guy]

9 minutes ago, NightSG said:

The enemy of my enemy is at least a tactical advantage for me as long as they're using their resources against each other..

Yeah, sometime ago (long before the current campaign) some wit observed:

When the Communists are protesting the Nazis, you're supposed to pray for an asteroid--not pick a favorite.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Yeah, sometime ago (long before the current campaign) some wit observed:

When the Communists are protesting the Nazis, you're supposed to pray for an asteroid--not pick a favorite.

To make this apply to the current electoral cycle, the premise, is of course that the Dem is a "Communist" and the Repub is a "Nazi".  I reject that premise.

[Just_A_Guy]

5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

To make this apply to the current electoral cycle, the premise, is of course that the Dem is a "Communist" and the Repub is a "Nazi".  I reject that premise.

That's the easy application, but it's not really what I intended.  (That application would similarly equivocate Hillary with Mao and Stalin, which I think is just as problematic as equating Trump to Hitler.)  To me the punchline is that they're both abhorrent; and revulsion for one shouldn't drive one into the arms of the other.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[prisonchaplain]

@Just_A_Guy  Trump may not be a conservative, but he's gotten where he is by being politically incorrect.  Perfectly or consistently?  Perhaps not.  Nevertheless, he's published his SCOTUS nominee listed, and he's made it clear he will say what he wants.  Are there quite a few question marks?  Absolutely.  Was he last on my GOP pick list, when we had 17 candidates?  He was.  Still, where I have doubts about him, I have certainty about HRC.  She will nominate pro-abortion judges.  She will nominate judges who view LBGT issues as standing in opposition to religious liberty--and who side with LGBT.  It may be uncertain just how tough Trump will be with foreign nations, but HRC is certain to follow in Obama's anti-Israel, anti- "U.S. imperialism" mode.

I trust Trump 50% to do the right thing.  I trust HRC 100% to do the wrong thing.  It's not difficult math.

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

That's the easy application, but it's not really what I intended.  (That application would similarly equivocate Hillary with Mao and Stalin, which I think is just as problematic as equating Trump to Hitler.)  To me the punchline is that they're both abhorrent; and revulsion for one shouldn't drive one into the arms of the other.

I get the analogy that you intended.  You missed mine (with the quotes on communist and nazi to imply I didn't really mean those allegorically but simply as a placeholder for bad versus bad or abhorrent versus abhorrent).  So, basically, I reject the premise that they're both abhorrent. 

[Just_A_Guy]

6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Just_A_Guy  Trump may not be a conservative, but he's gotten where he is by being politically incorrect . . .

And a lot of other things, whose qualities--if emulated by all future candidates--will leave us in similar straits to that of four more years of Democratic hegemony.

As Erickson implies, I don't think we need a strongman so much as a Strong Man.  Trump represents the right's rejection of the latter in favor of the former; and the repentance process for such a sin will not be easy. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by Just_A_Guy