Do other religions have some bit of truth to them?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

At least I got the good Roosevelt, and not the one with his face carved into a mountain.

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yeah, I got the one who rode horses into battle.  You got the one who gave us the New Deal.

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

You have that backwards, friend. I'm the elder, remember?

So, uhmmm.  Who's carved in the mountain side?

Edited December 30, 2016 by Guest

[Vort]

One thing I will agree with @Rob Osborn about, and which I think is a source of confusion here, is that many Church leaders have taught that the ordinance of baptism is a celestial ordinance that does not apply to "lower" kingdoms. While I agree that baptism is necessary for celestial glory, I believe it is equally necessary for any other kingdom of glory. We can receive a kingdom of glory only by being cleansed from sin, which is what baptism does. I know of no other way to be cleansed. Even suffering as Christ suffered does not cleanse us.

If you accept that (a) baptism is a celestial-only ordinance and (b) baptism is required to enter into any kingdom of glory, the the only conclusion is that any kingdom of glory is (eventually) a celestial kingdom. Ergo, progression "between" (or "of") kingdoms. Needless to say, I disagree with this, but not because the logic is bad. I disagree with the first premise, that baptism applies to or otherwise benefits only those who inherit the celestial kingdom in the resurrection.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, uhmmm.  Who's carved in the mountain side?

Holy cow. It's Teddy Roosevelt carved into the mountain. I guess I stuck my foot into that pile. I've never actually been there, but I guess I thought it was carved in the 1950s, not in the 1930s. Duh.

You win. I admit defeat. I guess you really are older than I am.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Vort

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

As I wrote: "At least I got the good Roosevelt, and not the one with his face carved into a mountain."

(putting a pause on the banter for a moment) Am I missing something?

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

 Am I missing something?

Yes. It's an early sign of impending dementia. 

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yes. It's an early sign of impending dementia. 

Sadly, given my family history, this might well be the case.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Yes. It's an early sign of impending dementia. 

That's what they tell  me.

I recently had a "brain scan" which told me that I have poor memory, poor math skills, poor organizational skills, and poor communication skills. 

I picked up my stuff and headed for the door.  The "doctor" asked if I wanted a copy of the report.  I laughed at him.

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

What part of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is unclear to you?

The fact that the Atonement of Christ can make one clean from sin is clearly and plainly documented.  The fact that only the Atonement of Christ can make one clean enough for Heaven is also plainly documented.

The things we need to do to take advantage of the Atonement of Christ is plainly documented as well.

The quote that you give from the Gospel principle manual clearly states that it is the Atonement of Christ is the means by which those in Hell can make it to the lowest kingdom.

 

Yet you seem hell bent (literally) in saying that its not the Atonement that does the work... or that it is a different Atonement...  And then accusing the Church of being the one that is making that case.  You are the one making the accusation... the burden of proof is on you... every argument you have put forth has been shown as a  failure of your interpretation and disavowed as what the church officially teaches. 

 

 

Without repentance and baptism Christ has no power through his atonement to save one frim hell.

[estradling75]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

Without repentance and baptism Christ has no power through his atonement to save one frim hell.

Exactly..

And you have provided nothing that shows the church teaches otherwise... Provide such proof or withdraw your accusation

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Sadly, given my family history, this might well be the case.

All joking aside that's very sad and I hope it never effects you. 

 

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I laughed at him.

Did you effectively communicate your meaning? If not, he might have a point.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Did you effectively communicate your meaning? If not, he might have a point.

Well, I did back it up with the verbal: "For a worthless report?  Pshaw!  It didn't even identify my real problems."

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Did you effectively communicate your meaning? If not, he might have a point.

This coming from a dude who has never laughed in his entire life. You even pop the balloons that small children carry at the circus. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by MormonGator

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

This coming from a dude who has never laughed in his entire life. You even pop the balloons of small children at the circus. 

You'd poison a blind man's dog and steal his cane! You'd gift-wrap a leper and send him to your Aunt Jane! You'd even force-feed a diabetic a caaandy cane!

[estradling75]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

One thing I will agree with @Rob Osborn about, and which I think is a source of confusion here, is that many Church leaders have taught that the ordinance of baptism is a celestial ordinance that does not apply to "lower" kingdoms. While I agree that baptism is necessary for celestial glory, I believe it is equally necessary for any other kingdom of glory. We can receive a kingdom of glory only by being cleansed from sin, which is what baptism does. I know of no other way to be cleansed. Even suffering as Christ suffered does not cleanse us.

Indeed some have taught this...  Have any of them ever taught that an unclean thing can enter heaven?  Have any of them taught that the unrepentant will be saved? Or have any of them taught that the Lesser degrees of Glory are not Heaven?  Because that is what @Rob Osborn is accusing the church of teaching

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

You'd poison a blind man's dog and steal his cane! You'd gift-wrap a leper and send him to your Aunt Jane! You'd even force-feed a diabetic a caaandy cane!

@Vort is describing how he spent his weekend. Sick man...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This coming from a dude who has never laughed in his entire life. You even pop the balloons that small children carry at the circus. 

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

You'd poison a blind man's dog and steal his cane! You'd gift-wrap a leper and send him to your Aunt Jane! You'd even force-feed a diabetic a caaandy cane!

I get the impression that both of you could have been hired as a straight man for a Robin Williams routine.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Guest

[zil]

36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

But we teach baptism is only for the celestial kingdom.

I have never, ever in over 4 decades heard that taught (I've been in the church all my life).  I have only seen it mentioned here.  Maybe I grew up in a bubble.  Maybe I'm still in a bubble.  Maybe @Vort will be by to pop it soon.  Better find my earplugs...

[Guest]

I don't think baptism is about entering the Celestial Kingdom or qualifies you for the Celestial Kingdom. Maybe the endowment does because of how it ends. (Trying to be vague without discussing temple content)

Edited December 31, 2016 by Zarahemla

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, zil said:

I have never, ever in over 4 decades heard that taught (I've been in the church all my life).  I have only seen it mentioned here.  Maybe I grew up in a bubble.  Maybe I'm still in a bubble.  Maybe @Vort will be by to pop it soon.  Better find my earplugs...

I can definitely say it was taught when I was in primary.  But now that I'm thinking about it, I don't recall it being taught in youth or adult classes.

[CV75]

Here's a good article showing how the restoration of the doctrine of the degrees of glory is consistent with the earliest Christian doctrines available for analysis:
 http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/Not_biblical

Edited December 31, 2016 by CV75

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 

How could any of these four guys have been President? They all seem to have rocks in their head. Perhaps this sculpture is a literal fulfillment of Isaiah 50:7

For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

or maybe

Ezekiel 3:9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
 

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed some have taught this...  Have any of them ever taught that an unclean thing can enter heaven?  Have any of them taught that the unrepentant will be saved? Or have any of them taught that the Lesser degrees of Glory are not Heaven?  Because that is what @Rob Osborn is accusing the church of teaching

Its important to note that the "Kingdom of Heaven", or "heaven" is used exclusively in the scriptures to mean the Celestial kingdom. Even though the church does define and acknowledge that the three kingdoms are part of that kingdom in some vague way they do indeed define the kingdom of heaven to mean the celestial almost exclusively. Whats really interesting is that all of Christs teachings regarding the subject in scripture refers to heaven in an exclusively singular sense. I found a few official quotes regarding how our church interprets "heaven"-

"The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). The purpose of the Church is to prepare its members to live forever in the celestial kingdom or kingdom of heaven. However, the scriptures sometimes call the Church the kingdom of heaven, meaning that the Church is the kingdom of heaven on earth." (Guide to the scriptures; Kingdom of Heaven)

"The term heaven has two basic meanings in the scriptures. (1) It is the place where God lives and the future home of the Saints" (Guide to the scriptures; Heaven)

"These terms are used in various combinations and with varying meanings. Generally speaking, the kingdom of God on the earth is the Church. It is a preparation for the greater kingdom—the celestial or kingdom of heaven" (Bible Dictionary; Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God)

 

[Rob Osborn]

I continue to dig. I found thus quote from a manual called "The plan of salvation"

"Telestial kingdom. Those who continue in their sins and do not repent will receive a place in the telestial kingdom."

"Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory" (topics; hell)

[estradling75]

6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its important to note that the "Kingdom of Heaven", or "heaven" is used exclusively in the scriptures to mean the Celestial kingdom. Even though the church does define and acknowledge that the three kingdoms are part of that kingdom in some vague way they do indeed define the kingdom of heaven to mean the celestial almost exclusively. Whats really interesting is that all of Christs teachings regarding the subject in scripture refers to heaven in an exclusively singular sense. I found a few official quotes regarding how our church interprets "heaven"-

"The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). The purpose of the Church is to prepare its members to live forever in the celestial kingdom or kingdom of heaven. However, the scriptures sometimes call the Church the kingdom of heaven, meaning that the Church is the kingdom of heaven on earth." (Guide to the scriptures; Kingdom of Heaven)

"The term heaven has two basic meanings in the scriptures. (1) It is the place where God lives and the future home of the Saints" (Guide to the scriptures; Heaven)

"These terms are used in various combinations and with varying meanings. Generally speaking, the kingdom of God on the earth is the Church. It is a preparation for the greater kingdom—the celestial or kingdom of heaven" (Bible Dictionary; Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God)

 

OK... so follow the logic...

The scriptures say only that the Kingdom of Heaven must be pure and clean.  If only the Celestial Kingdom is the Heaven that is the Kingdom of God/Heaven.  Then the Terrestial an Telestial kingdoms have no such promise because they are not the Kingdom of Heaven/God. In fact per Nephi 15:34 we can conclude that they must be designed for some level of filthiness (if they are not part of the Kingdom).

Either way your argument still fails.  Either the Telestial kingdom is part of the Kingdom of God/Heaven... in which case all that enter must be made clean by the atonement (Thru repentance)...  Or the Telestial kingdom is not part of the Kingdom of God/Heaven and there is no requirement for the people who enter to be made clean.  No matter what direction you wish to take the church does not teach that the unrepentant with be part of the Kingdom of God/Heaven.  The closest case that can be made is that at the final judgement Christ might decide in his wisdom that some unrepentant should not receive the Son of Perdition level punishment, and give them rest in a place prepared for them outside of the Kingdom of God.