As a scroll

[skalenfehl]

Ever wonder how Jesus, although able to eat fish with His disciples, being a resurrected being of solid flesh and bone, could still enter a room though the door was locked, passing through walls? Ever wonder how Moroni could appear to Joseph Smith inside his room without needing to use the door? Ever wonder how the heavens, though spacious in every dimension and also the earth will be rolled or wrapped together as a scroll though it is a sphere? 

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Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

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Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

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Mormon 5:23 Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled togetheras a scroll?

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Mormon 9:2 Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God?

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3 Nephi 26:3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away

I believe it is because God and angels dwell outside of time and outside of this three dimensional existence. Incidentally, I believe the earth is a sphere. But to our three dimensionally limited minds, a three dimensional universe can be acted upon by fourth dimension beings just as three dimensional beings can act upon a two dimensional world. Not that it's important. I was just a little bored and get carried away with random thoughts. These two videos explain what I mean. Gotta love Carl Sagan. Enjoy.

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by skalenfehl

[Blackmarch]

as good a guess as any. it is a fun thought.

[estradling75]

Reminds me of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

[skalenfehl]

9 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Reminds me of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

Genius story. I saw a movie adaptation. 

[skalenfehl]

This guy nailed it. I love how he explained fourth dimensional existence. While we are physical beings living in a 3d temporal existence, I imagine the Lord existing in a 4d spiritual or eternal (or insert word) existence. It makes perfect sense to me why Jesus Christ had departed Nephi's presence in order for Nephi to behold Jesus' condescension. 

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1 Nephi 11:

8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

 9 And it came to pass after I had seen the tree, I said unto the Spirit: I behold thou hast shown unto me the tree which is precious above all.

 10 And he said unto me: What desirest thou?

 11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

Now I must interject here and say that I believe this was the premortal Jesus Christ conversing with Nephi just as He did with the bro of Jared and I do not believe that this was the Holy Ghost or any other spiritual being. 

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12 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look! And I looked as if to look upon him, and I saw him not; for he had gone from before my presence.

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

 14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?

 15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

 16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?

 17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

 18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

 19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

 20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

 21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!

After Jesus had departed Nephi's presence, an angel takes the Lord's place in tutoring Nephi and now Nephi, while still having been carried away by the spirit, beheld the nativity scene. Jesus Christ was now occupying another space in the flesh in the temporal existence. Anyway, just some more fun ponderings of mine. 

[Rob Osborn]

I see space as being truly 3d and nothing more. However, within that 3d space you have matter that occupies the space on different levels from small to large. Within that space we have different degrees of light or spirit matter that all can occupy the same space. Its our senses and measuring tools that only hamper our ability to see "all" the matter in any given space. Its this same principle of how its possible for our spirits made up of finer particles of light to go through matter of much larger bits. Kind of analogous to filtering water through a bed of large stones. Our eyes and bodies see and feel according to wavelengths of this light that our perception is on frequency with. Kind of like not being able to see certain wavelegths of light, there are many levels of this frquency far smaller and larger that are just outside our ability to see or feel with even specialty tools and equipment. And, because we can occupy the same space without discplacement we do not feel ourselves walking through other forms or levels of matter.

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I see space as being truly 3d and nothing more.

 

Einstein projected and it has been proven that space time “warps” under various conditions – such as a gravity well.  This proves beyond any question that our 3 dimensional space of necessity is something more. 

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

 

I have long been interested in the concept of our universe being a 4 dimensional sphere and also the possibility that spirit matter exists in a higher dimension.  Some think of time as a dimension but time under certain circumstances is not continuous which would eliminate time as a dimension but could be what some refer to as a pseudo dimension.  Is short it means that time can be manipulated even in this dimension but much more from a high dimension.

I have also projected that mathematics can be used to predict influences of a higher dimension in our space time.  Carl Sagan gave some simple examples.  I have suggested previously on this forum that Dark Matter, Dark Energy and Dark Radiation can be explained mathematically with fractals as influences of an additional dimension in intersection with our universe.  I am surprised that I have not seen any white papers published on this theory – it may take some time

I do believe that we are at a threshold of discovery that will or can bring science and religion much closer – at least for us LDS types.  But at the same time – I am saddened that so many in the religious community (including LDS) are ignoring what is being revealed to us concerning our empirical universe.  As I have stated previously that our Milky Way Galaxy is but a small part of a supercluster of galaxies (Laniakea) that all by itself is bigger than what anybody (including religious thinkers) perceived the universe just 100 years ago.  Also I have posted Hubble pictures of distant superclusters and electron microscopic pictures of nerve cells – and few readers could tell which was which.

 

The Traveler

 

[Anddenex]

I remember when Traveler (this was a few years back) posted a thought regarding Adam and Eve being within a 4th dimension. I thought this was an intriguing thought and here again it is presented.

In light of the notion that miracles and other aspects that are not yet explained are possible Celestial laws unknown, this is definitely fun to ponder, and I would not be surprised if true. When I first was introduced to this thought by Traveler I didn't experience any confusion, but am not studied enough in the 4th dimension and related sciences to offer any logical thoughts.

Could the spiritual plain where Nephi and others have been taken to be a 4th dimension? Sure.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Anddenex
plane to plain

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I have long been interested in the concept of our universe being a 4 dimensional sphere and also the possibility that spirit matter exists in a higher dimension.  Some think of time as a dimension but time under certain circumstances is not continuous which would eliminate time as a dimension but could be what some refer to as a pseudo dimension.  Is short it means that time can be manipulated even in this dimension but much more from a high dimension.

I have also projected that mathematics can be used to predict influences of a higher dimension in our space time.  Carl Sagan gave some simple examples.  I have suggested previously on this forum that Dark Matter, Dark Energy and Dark Radiation can be explained mathematically with fractals as influences of an additional dimension in intersection with our universe.  I am surprised that I have not seen any white papers published on this theory – it may take some time

I do believe that we are at a threshold of discovery that will or can bring science and religion much closer – at least for us LDS types.  But at the same time – I am saddened that so many in the religious community (including LDS) are ignoring what is being revealed to us concerning our empirical universe.  As I have stated previously that our Milky Way Galaxy is but a small part of a supercluster of galaxies (Laniakea) that all by itself is bigger than what anybody (including religious thinkers) perceived the universe just 100 years ago.  Also I have posted Hubble pictures of distant superclusters and electron microscopic pictures of nerve cells – and few readers could tell which was which.

 

The Traveler

 

Im of the firm opinion that the universe perhaps goes on forever. If that is true, how would science account for it? Especially in light of their theory that it was all a small mass before their big bang?

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im of the firm opinion that the universe perhaps goes on forever. If that is true, how would science account for it? Especially in light of their theory that it was all a small mass before their big bang?

 

Thanks for the question @Rob Osborn.  Scientist have known from the very introduction of the Big Bang theory that there were problems.  The reason the Big Bang theory gained favor is because it was the best we had.  But on to the question.  I assume that you are onboard with the concept of an expanding universe?  But let’s say the universe is infinite.  The concept of infinite has sort of evolved in modern time.  The concept of the universe being a 4 dimensional sphere goes along with the concept in the video of the curved flatland into a sphere – just at the next dimensional level.  Einstein theorized and it has been proven that our 3 dimensions are not Euclidian but that straight lines are curved (a definite oxymoron).  Since our universe is expanding – think of a balloon being blown bigger.  All the points on the balloon are constantly getting farther away from each other.  But there is another problem – in essence more points are constantly being created.  This is another oxymoron – where is the additional stuff coming from?

There is another problem – what is our dimensional space expanding into?  One theory is singularity.  In essence that all points “outside” our universe are the same single point – including the singularity of Black Holes.  This theory has given rise to what we call Worm Holes – a concept first thought up by Carl Sagan.  But this would mean that all points of the universe are both interior and exterior – in essence a Klein bottle – if you want to Google something.

Now back to your question about the initial small mass.  One theory is that infinite energy would make up for the missing mass.  One theory is that an 11 dimensional space universe clasped.  But that theory has it obvious problems.  One problem with the Big Bang that has never been solved is that the matter and energy of this universe currently understood would be too much to exist in a singularity.  In essence if there was a Big Bang it would have goon off two soon and left our universe much smaller (by magnitudes of 10).  One possible solution would be that there were (and continue to be) Big Bangs.  But that has its problems as well.

In ancient scripture the symbol of infinite was the number 70 – so when Jesus said we should forgive 7 times 70 – in essence he was saying to forgive 7 times infinity.  In modern time even the number 7 times 70 is not even close to our understanding of infinity.  From an LDS perspective we can understand infinite that even finite continues to increase – forever.  That is also one of the mathematical definitions.   Thus even if G-d’s current kingdom is finite the fact that it is eternally increasing – G-d would be correct in saying it was infinite – even by our modern terms.

There is one other point – that is that we really do not know exactly what G-d means when he says his work is infinite.  But we try to think of ways to visualize what he is talking about.  For me I find some rational in the science of physics and mathematics that I do not find in the traditional religious concepts.  So for me – I do not understand why so many in our modern society dump science for outdated traditional religious concepts.  I am convinced, for example, that the Creation as understood in the context of the Plan of Salvation – is not nearly the same as the origins of this empirical universe.  The term in singular of universe many believe to be the same spoken of in ancient scripture as the plural term of heavens – as when G-d created the heavens and the earth.  The more I study this the more I am convinced – science and scripture are talking about two very different “things”.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Thanks for the question @Rob Osborn.  Scientist have known from the very introduction of the Big Bang theory that there were problems.  The reason the Big Bang theory gained favor is because it was the best we had.  But on to the question.  I assume that you are onboard with the concept of an expanding universe?  But let’s say the universe is infinite.  The concept of infinite has sort of evolved in modern time.  The concept of the universe being a 4 dimensional sphere goes along with the concept in the video of the curved flatland into a sphere – just at the next dimensional level.  Einstein theorized and it has been proven that our 3 dimensions are not Euclidian but that straight lines are curved (a definite oxymoron).  Since our universe is expanding – think of a balloon being blown bigger.  All the points on the balloon are constantly getting farther away from each other.  But there is another problem – in essence more points are constantly being created.  This is another oxymoron – where is the additional stuff coming from?

There is another problem – what is our dimensional space expanding into?  One theory is singularity.  In essence that all points “outside” our universe are the same single point – including the singularity of Black Holes.  This theory has given rise to what we call Worm Holes – a concept first thought up by Carl Sagan.  But this would mean that all points of the universe are both interior and exterior – in essence a Klein bottle – if you want to Google something.

Now back to your question about the initial small mass.  One theory is that infinite energy would make up for the missing mass.  One theory is that an 11 dimensional space universe clasped.  But that theory has it obvious problems.  One problem with the Big Bang that has never been solved is that the matter and energy of this universe currently understood would be too much to exist in a singularity.  In essence if there was a Big Bang it would have goon off two soon and left our universe much smaller (by magnitudes of 10).  One possible solution would be that there were (and continue to be) Big Bangs.  But that has its problems as well.

In ancient scripture the symbol of infinite was the number 70 – so when Jesus said we should forgive 7 times 70 – in essence he was saying to forgive 7 times infinity.  In modern time even the number 7 times 70 is not even close to our understanding of infinity.  From an LDS perspective we can understand infinite that even finite continues to increase – forever.  That is also one of the mathematical definitions.   Thus even if G-d’s current kingdom is finite the fact that it is eternally increasing – G-d would be correct in saying it was infinite – even by our modern terms.

There is one other point – that is that we really do not know exactly what G-d means when he says his work is infinite.  But we try to think of ways to visualize what he is talking about.  For me I find some rational in the science of physics and mathematics that I do not find in the traditional religious concepts.  So for me – I do not understand why so many in our modern society dump science for outdated traditional religious concepts.  I am convinced, for example, that the Creation as understood in the context of the Plan of Salvation – is not nearly the same as the origins of this empirical universe.  The term in singular of universe many believe to be the same spoken of in ancient scripture as the plural term of heavens – as when G-d created the heavens and the earth.  The more I study this the more I am convinced – science and scripture are talking about two very different “things”.

 

The Traveler

I have long felt that when God created the heavens he was speaking more along the lines of our galaxy. Gods creations to us are as numerous as the sands on the beach but to God they are numbered. I can thus see God always having a finite (numbered but ever increasing) number of creations but because he will do it forever they are or can be fonsidered without number because it will increase forever.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have long felt that when God created the heavens he was speaking more along the lines of our galaxy. Gods creations to us are as numerous as the sands on the beach but to God they are numbered. I can thus see God always having a finite (numbered but ever increasing) number of creations but because he will do it forever they are or can be fonsidered without number because it will increase forever.

 

Something you may find interesting is a diagram drawn by Parley P Pratt - looks something like this:  (Rats the diagram was deleted with the formatting)

try to Google "Parley P Pratt kingdom diagram" - look under images (see diagram with (see diagram with crown at the top)

 

And then compare it to the map of the Laniakea Supercluster that includes our Milky Way Galaxy (red dot):  Hmmmmmm had problems copying – Google Laniakea supercluster.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 24, 2017 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Something you may find interesting is a diagram drawn by Parley P Pratt - looks something like this:  (Rats the diagram was deleted with the formatting)

try to Google "Parley P Pratt kingdom diagram" - look under images (see diagram with (see diagram with crown at the top)

 

And then compare it to the map of the Laniakea Supercluster that includes our Milky Way Galaxy (red dot):  Hmmmmmm had problems copying – Google Laniakea supercluster.

 

The Traveler

Thats really cool. Thanks!