The Eye of Faith

[Guest]

@The Folk Prophet,

I spent quite a bit of time preparing a big analogy with physics on "force", "work", "energy", "potential energy", etc.  And it was a good one. I also believe it to be a valid one.  

(@Vort,if you're interested, I'll go ahead and share it.  But it was so long that I believe it would distract from the following)

Then I went into an analogy on money.  It was then that I finally understood what your pebble of discontent came from.

If I have millions of dollars, I have the ability to do things.  But the thing about money is that you cannot be the end user of money.  For money to be of any value, it must remain in circulation.  It is only through the constant circulation that it has any value.

If I put that millions into a cave and seal it up, never to be used again, it has no value.  What use is money that you don't have access to?  It would be like having a $M check with no photo ID or bank account.  It's useless.  You might as well have no money at all.  

My only point is that even when it is useless, does no good, & has no value, it still exists in that cave.  That is why I said "in practical application" there is no difference.  You might as well have no faith.  I was just trying to put a fine point on it just for discussion purposes without any real significance.

See the difference?  You were saying it doesn't exist at all.  I was modifying it to it might as well not exist.

"By grace we are saved through faith"

If I analogize money with faith and being saved as the benefit I seek, I come up with: By the assurance and backing of government, we can buy anything in this world with money (hee hee).  But that only happens when I spend the money on the benefit.  Simply having it does no good.  Hence "faith without works is dead."  OR  Money that is never spent on a benefit has no value.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

@Carborendum

The money thing is good. And a fine way to look at it. Not exactly what I'm suggesting though. My thought is that works are a component of faith. The definition of faith, in my understanding and thinking, requires works. An off the top of my head analogy -- we'll go with water (though any random object might work just as well). If you take out the oxygen it's not water any more. It's just hydrogen. This is the way I understand the "faith without works is dead" idea. Water without oxygen is dead (meaning it ain't water no more...the water has gone the way of all the earth. Kaput. No more. Over. Done.)

A different analogy might be (also randomly thought up as I go) something like...a jockey There are aspects required for someone to be considered a jockey, the two obvious being that they ride a horse and they do so as a horse racer in some regard.  (It also applies to camel racers..but...) What happens, imo, with people's view of faith is they see a horse rider as a jockey, but that's not the complete story that makes a jockey a jockey. If you call yourself a jockey but you don't actually race the horses at some level then you're wrong. You're no jockey at all.

That's my sense of the matter. Your money analogy doesn't work for me because it doesn't get at what I'm saying. Using faith is part of what makes it faith. If I were using money as the example (assuming print money) I'd go with something like bleaching the ink out of it and then still calling it money. But the printing on it is part of what makes it money.

Edited May 5, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

19 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Carborendum

The money thing is good. And a fine way to look at it. Not exactly what I'm suggesting though. My thought is that works are a component of faith. The definition of faith, in my understanding and thinking, requires works. An off the top of my head analogy -- we'll go with water (though any random object might work just as well). If you take out the oxygen it's not water any more. It's just hydrogen. This is the way I understand the "faith without works is dead" idea. Water without oxygen is dead (meaning it ain't water no more...the water has gone the way of all the earth. Kaput. No more. Over. Done.)

A different analogy might be (also randomly thought up as I go) something like...a jockey There are aspects required for someone to be considered a jockey, the two obvious being that they ride a horse and they do so as a horse racer in some regard.  (It also applies to camel racers..but...) What happens, imo, with people's view of faith is they see a horse rider as a jockey, but that's not the complete story that makes a jockey a jockey. If you call yourself a jockey but you don't actually race the horses at some level then you're wrong. You're no jockey at all.

That's my sense of the matter. Your money analogy doesn't work for me because it doesn't get at what I'm saying. Using faith is part of what makes it faith. If I were using money as the example (assuming print money) I'd go with something like bleaching the ink out of it and then still calling it money. But the printing on it is part of what makes it money.

I just don't see it that way.  I see it as faith is the hydrogen and oxygen is the work.  Together they spell out a blessing or salvation which would be the water.  Faith without works may be dead.  But works without faith does not produce salvation.  But your analogy is different.  And I just don't see it that way.

Depending on what you're paralleling the jockey to, I'm not sure what you're saying.  But I'd have to point out that once a jockey has a "status" as jockey, he's still a jockey even when he's not racing.  He still eats, sleeps, poops, walks, talks when he's not actually riding.  In a way, this actually supports my position.

So, apparently we disagree. I'm ok with that.

Anyway, on to the real question behind he OP.

The question was really about "learning by faith."

Quote

And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;

()D&C 109:7)

So, how do we learn by faith?  Obviously, we learn by the physical act of study.  But this doesn't really take faith in the spiritual sense ("and as all have not faith").  This is exemplified when memorizing something of a completely secular nature.  Further in the verse we read that we learn through seeking.  What was the Brother of Jared seeking where the knowledge obtained would be to know the physical nature of God as well as the future physical nature of God?

He wanted to have the Lord touch the stones with His finger.  So, I naturally would assume the Lord would touch them with His finger.  Thus Mahonri would see the finger.  But, it wasn't just his finger which would have been a spirit at that time (which would be obvious).  What he saw was the physical finger that was to come.  Does no one else raise an eyebrow at that?  How could that be?  Why would that be?  What was really going on here?

I'm not just picking at a word.  I truly believe there is something very deep here that I do not understand.  I'm hoping someone else does.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Guest

[skalenfehl]

One's faith is in direct proportion to one's keeping of the commandments and sayings of Jesus. The first commandment is to repent. But of what? We are told exactly what the Lord does and doesn't want us doing. In Hebrew, the word repent means to return. Returning to the Lord is a work. How did Nephi exercise faith? He returned to the Lord. The next work was to inquire of the Lord. Then when it bore fruit, he resolved to do whatever the Lord required of him (1 Ne 3:7), one of the biggees being to slay Laban. Because of his obedience to the Lord, he gained confidence in the Lord working through him. When his brothers left him for dead, the Lord granted his petition to free himself from the bands. Alternatively, once they sailed, Nephi did not petition the Lord for the same, because he knew it was the Lord's will that he suffer being tied while his brothers learned a humbling lesson. When the Lord knows you will serve Him at all costs (Moses, Nephi, Isaiah, Abinadi, etc), he swears an oath with you and grants to you His power to do His own will. Faith then becomes knowledge. Knowledge saves. The brother of Jared had faith no longer (Ether 3), but obtained knowledge. This is and has always been the pattern since Adam. Jesus Christ created the earth by faith. The work He had to do was to utter words. By words do His works come to pass. 

"Let there be light."

[skalenfehl]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

What was the Brother of Jared seeking where the knowledge obtained would be to know the physical nature of God as well as the future physical nature of God?

He wanted to have the Lord touch the stones with His finger.  So, I naturally would assume the Lord would touch them with His finger.  Thus Mahonri would see the finger.  But, it wasn't just his finger which would have been a spirit at that time (which would be obvious).  What he saw was the physical finger that was to come.  Does no one else raise an eyebrow at that?  How could that be?  Why would that be?  What was really going on here?

I'm not just picking at a word.  I truly believe there is something very deep here that I do not understand.  I'm hoping someone else does.

I will not claim to be correct, but I disagree. The bro of Jared just wanted the stones illuminated. He desired the Lord to touch them. The Lord grants to us our righteous desires. The Lord explicitly told him that this was His spirit body. The bro of Jared saw the Lord's finger with an eye of faith; with his spiritual eyes. We are spirit. We are tabernacled in the flesh, however, we are able to, when attuned, to perceive the spiritual, but not according to the flesh. When the bro of Jared saw, to his surprise, the the Lord's finger, he thought he saw flesh and blood like his own, but the Lord clarified the matter to him. Knowledge in this context is defined as a covenant relationship. Adam knew Eve. Jehova knows Israel. We tend to think of the word know as sexual, but it's not. It is more of an intimate relationship. A covenant relationship. When the Bridegroom returns, the veil will part and the "woman" (Israel/Zion) will be revealed to him. Thus when the bro of Jared desired to see the Lord's face, his faith was sufficient (his works being equal to his faith) to see the Lord and thus "know" Him. This is why it is impossible to be saved in ignorance. You cannot be saved without knowing who it is that saves you. Ether chapter 3 contains a key of knowledge, or rather, obtaining knowledge. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by skalenfehl
typos

[skalenfehl]

How did the brother of Jared obtain such a powerful manifestation? We are told initially that he was favored of the Lord. Joseph Smith talks about the favorites of heaven. Nephi talks about being highly favored. Those who keep His commandments/do His will are indeed favored. To be favored is a covenant blessing. The brother of Jared was meek and obedient. He was favored. That is the reason Jared told him to inquire of the Lord if perhaps He would preserve them and give to them a land of promise. This was Jared's request. 

Because the bro of Jared was favored (again because he was meek, humble, obedient, etc), and because he cried unto the Lord "this long time," the Lord granted his righteous desire to intercede for his family and friends. The Lord is always pleased to have "saviors in Zion" and the bro of Jared's "work" to cry unto the Lord until the Lord inclined His ear, gained him an audience. Thereafter, the bro of Jared was given more work to do. He was to build barges and gather necessities. This was all an act of faith; of work. Finally the Lord let the bro of Jared work out a way to illuminate the barges (beautiful symbolism), which I believe the bro of Jared was inspired to come up with the solution. So inspired was he because, being faithful and obedient and favored, that he was able to part the veil of unbelief and turn all that works/faith into fruit/knowledge of Jesus Christ. The first fruits of faith is repentance. The final fruits is knowledge. This is the kind of knowledge produced by those who see Him with an eye of faith. And so that Lord gave him two more stones (how coincidental is that!?) to do more work. And the Lord showed to him all things from the beginning to the end. The more our faith grows, the greater our works become until like Jesus, one may say in the distant eternal future:

"Let there be light." 

[The Folk Prophet]

@Carborendum In my scripture study today I came across this:

Ether 12:21

21 And after the brother of Jared had beheld the finger of the Lord, because of the promise which the brother of Jared had obtained by faith, the Lord could not withhold anything from his sight; wherefore he showed him all things, for he could no longer be kept without the veil.

The reference on the word "promise" led to:

Ether 3:25-26

25 And when the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he withheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth.

26 For he had said unto him in times before, that if he would believe in him that he could show unto him all things—it should be shown unto him; therefore the Lord could not withhold anything from him, for he knew that the Lord could show him all things.

So there's the scriptural association spelled out. Ether's work of faith that led to his seeing God was believing. It wasn't random. It was a promise being fulfilled.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Carborendum In my scripture study today I came across this:

Ether 12:21

21 And after the brother of Jared had beheld the finger of the Lord, because of the promise which the brother of Jared had obtained by faith, the Lord could not withhold anything from his sight; wherefore he showed him all things, for he could no longer be kept without the veil.

The reference on the word "promise" led to:

Ether 3:25-26

25 And when the Lord had said these words, he showed unto the brother of Jared all the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he withheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth.

26 For he had said unto him in times before, that if he would believe in him that he could show unto him all things—it should be shown unto him; therefore the Lord could not withhold anything from him, for he knew that the Lord could show him all things.

So there's the scriptural association spelled out. Ether's work of faith that led to his seeing God was believing. It wasn't random. It was a promise being fulfilled.

That's what I'm talking about.  Actually, I was hoping for something else.  But this did answer the question I had.  Thanks.

[SilentOne]

On 5/5/2017 at 9:16 AM, Carborendum said:

If I put that millions into a cave and seal it up, never to be used again, it has no value.  What use is money that you don't have access to?  It would be like having a $M check with no photo ID or bank account.  It's useless.  You might as well have no money at all.  

The £1,000,000 Bank Note by Mark Twain

[Guest]

So, I'm in the Book of Ether now.  Chapter 3 obviously made me think of this thread.  I came across some interesting points in my reading.

The chapter heading says:

Quote

Those who have a perfect knowledge cannot be kept from within the veil

Is it interesting to anyone else that it says "cannot" rather than "will not"?

Verse 6 says:

Quote

And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared

As I read this phrase, the word "taken" stood out to me.  The interpretation I took from it was that it is not simply a barrier that we get past in some way, shape, or form.  It is something that is actively present and must actively be removed to be able to see the other side.

Then I noticed several questions from the Lord:

Quote

7...and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

Obviously, the Lord knows all and would know the answers to these questions.  When the Lord asks such questions it is usually to point out something to the one answering (or possibly reading).  What was His intent on asking these questions?

Edited June 30, 2017 by Guest

[SpiritDragon]

@Carborendum @The Folk Prophet Fascinating discussions on faith gentlemen. Your descriptions are rife with insights and analogies. I wonder if we were to stick to the analogy of faith being like a seed what could be unpacked. A seed if left unplanted will not grow, but has the potential to lying dormant within. In time though, it will dry up and die and lose the potential even to grow. Once it begins to grow, it needs to continue to grow - it is either flourishing or it is withering, is it not? I believe that this leaves a lot of room for both of your thoughts on faith to come together. The seed, much like belief (or the belief aspect of faith), holds the potential to grow, but cannot do so without works or it will eventually die or as put in the book of James is dead. It needs to be planted and nourished or it is as good as dead already, the belief will whither and the seed of faith will die. So the life of the faith is contingent on it being planted and tended to. As the plant grows it becomes more resilient and brings forth fruit and with that fruit more seeds to plant to continue the life cycle. One could look at these seeds as having possibilities for missionary work or look at them as new avenues opened by cultivating faith in the first place in a line upon line fashion, ie. after exercising faith in the Lord by attending church meetings, faith is increased in principles such as scripture study, prayer, tithing, sabbath observance?

I could go on, and would find it interesting to see what might come up, but I thought perhaps it molds your two thoughts together in one to an extent - because I think you're both more or less right with your ideas about faith. Let me attempt to more clearly break down how I see these two thoughts fitting together: If we look at the seed like we look at the idea of belief creating the spark by which good works come forth, we won't be disappointed, because the seed has within the potential to grow into a plant and bring forth fruit. If we look at the seed as a stage in faith that will die if not accompanied by works, we'll also not be disappointed. Or perhaps just as poignant, the seed is of no efficacy without works. This fits my understanding of the points you've both shared, does it fit your understanding and intent? 

[SpiritDragon]

Hey @Carborendum, further to your earlier question about why the Brother of Jared (MM) was given the Urim and Thummim, I started thinking about how the earth will become a great urim and thummim when it receives it's Celestial glory. I wondered if MM didn't need the U&T for continued progress in a line upon line, precept upon precept sort of way, where he advanced to such a point that was the next step. In any even I wondered why in the Celstial kingdom would there be a need for a great U&T and then looked into it more and discovered that many citizens of that Kingdom will have their own U&T's as well, which I found even more fascinating. Why, indeed?

It does appear from the verses TFP produced above that the answer for MM and possibly for the Celestial Kingdom as well is as part of a promise to reveal all things. Thoughts?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

If we look at the seed like we look at the idea of belief creating the spark by which good works come forth, we won't be disappointed, because the seed has within the potential to grow into a plant and bring forth fruit. If we look at the seed as a stage in faith that will die if not accompanied by works, we'll also not be disappointed. Or perhaps just as poignant, the seed is of no efficacy without works. This fits my understanding of the points you've both shared, does it fit your understanding and intent? 

Per the seed analogy:

I see hearing and learning of the word as the seed.  Faith is the plant as it grows from the seed.  Desiring to believe is the water for the seed.  Other husbandry (fertilizer, cultivation, pruning, weeding) must include minor works like prayer, ordinances, scripture study, church activity, etc.

As that tree grows, the poof in the pudding is the fruit.  What is the fruit?  Works?  A good tree brings forth good fruit.  The tree of faith brings forth good fruit.  So, what is the good fruit of faith?

The initial works are the nourishing of the tree of faith.  It is the building of our testimonies and increasing that source of inspiration for us.  It is all internal.

The good fruit shown forth is all about what we do to others.  Charity, missionary work, spreading the word, service, obtaining Eternal Life, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, having real peace in our lives...

I'm not sure if any of these are really correct.  To me it seems that there is something I'm missing about what the fruit actually is.

[SpiritDragon]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:52 AM, Carborendum said:

Obviously, the Lord knows all and would know the answers to these questions.  When the Lord asks such questions it is usually to point out something to the one answering (or possibly reading).  What was His intent on asking these questions?

I think the Lord is an expert coach, and realizes that by getting his charge to come up with his own answers the answers become more powerful than when simply given. By making the Brother of Jared look within and share his experience it carries more weight, because it came from within.

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

the poof in the pudding is the fruit

[Guest]

Just now, zil said:

What?  You've never had fruit pudding?  What do you think chocolate and tapioca are?  HAH!  Weren't expecting that, were ya?!?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I think the Lord is an expert coach, and realizes that by getting his charge to come up with his own answers the answers become more powerful than when simply given. By making the Brother of Jared look within and share his experience it carries more weight, because it came from within.

So, expound.  What was significant about the answers in this particular case?

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What?  You've never had fruit pudding?  What do you think chocolate and tapioca are?  HAH!  Weren't expecting that, were ya?!?

I've just never found any "poof" in my fruit pudding. (Thankfully.)

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

I've just never found any "poof" in my fruit pudding. (Thankfully.)

Why is there no "DOH!" emoji available?  I think I'd be the most common user of it.

But when you put poof in the pudding, it becomes mousse.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Guest

[zil]

Just now, Carborendum said:

Why is there no "DOH!" emoji available?  I think I'd be the most common user of it.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But when you put poof in the pudding, it becomes mousse.

[Guest]

Just now, zil said:

I just don't think that is powerful enough.  I guess I'll stick with the facepalm images.

[The Folk Prophet]

57 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

@Carborendum @The Folk Prophet Fascinating discussions on faith gentlemen. Your descriptions are rife with insights and analogies. I wonder if we were to stick to the analogy of faith being like a seed what could be unpacked. A seed if left unplanted will not grow, but has the potential to lying dormant within. In time though, it will dry up and die and lose the potential even to grow. Once it begins to grow, it needs to continue to grow - it is either flourishing or it is withering, is it not? I believe that this leaves a lot of room for both of your thoughts on faith to come together. The seed, much like belief (or the belief aspect of faith), holds the potential to grow, but cannot do so without works or it will eventually die or as put in the book of James is dead. It needs to be planted and nourished or it is as good as dead already, the belief will whither and the seed of faith will die. So the life of the faith is contingent on it being planted and tended to. As the plant grows it becomes more resilient and brings forth fruit and with that fruit more seeds to plant to continue the life cycle. One could look at these seeds as having possibilities for missionary work or look at them as new avenues opened by cultivating faith in the first place in a line upon line fashion, ie. after exercising faith in the Lord by attending church meetings, faith is increased in principles such as scripture study, prayer, tithing, sabbath observance?

I could go on, and would find it interesting to see what might come up, but I thought perhaps it molds your two thoughts together in one to an extent - because I think you're both more or less right with your ideas about faith. Let me attempt to more clearly break down how I see these two thoughts fitting together: If we look at the seed like we look at the idea of belief creating the spark by which good works come forth, we won't be disappointed, because the seed has within the potential to grow into a plant and bring forth fruit. If we look at the seed as a stage in faith that will die if not accompanied by works, we'll also not be disappointed. Or perhaps just as poignant, the seed is of no efficacy without works. This fits my understanding of the points you've both shared, does it fit your understanding and intent? 

Excellent thoughts.

Just to throw a wrench in things: The analogy of the seed is not a comparison to faith but to the word of God. "Now, we will compare the word unto a seed". You don't plant faith and nourish it. You plant the word of God and nourish it.

Maybe consider that in your ideas and see how it plays out in your mind.

Edited June 30, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[SpiritDragon]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:52 AM, Carborendum said:

7...and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

24 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I think the Lord is an expert coach, and realizes that by getting his charge to come up with his own answers the answers become more powerful than when simply given. By making the Brother of Jared look within and share his experience it carries more weight, because it came from within.

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, expound.  What was significant about the answers in this particular case?

 

Well, I think that asking the questions give more deep and impactful answers. Why hast thou fallen? This question allows for introspection as to the depth of emotions and the mortal capacity to wield those emotions. Also,it creates an opportunity for the spirit to bear witness in the response. Imagine the spiritual witness MM received as he stated that he saw the finger of the Lord, he is bearing testimony - the Lord asked him a question that would result in him bearing witness of an amazing event and gaining a spiritual confirmation. This is important because many others have seen angels and seemed to fail to grasp the significance, I believe because they failed to experience it spiritually. The antemortal Christ didn't want to waste an opportunity to teach his charge with all the tools available. This is very loving, because no doubt after such a witness, Mahonri was under greater condemnation if he ever fell away. I'm sure Jesus wanted to help ensure that would never happen.

Sawest thou more than this? This question opened up a teaching opportunity, not only for MM, but for us in reading the account. Had the Lord simply showed himself after his finger was seen, some learning opportunities would have been lost.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

44 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Per the seed analogy:

I see hearing and learning of the word as the seed.  Faith is the plant as it grows from the seed.  Desiring to believe is the water for the seed.  Other husbandry (fertilizer, cultivation, pruning, weeding) must include minor works like prayer, ordinances, scripture study, church activity, etc.

As that tree grows, the poof in the pudding is the fruit.  What is the fruit?  Works?  A good tree brings forth good fruit.  The tree of faith brings forth good fruit.  So, what is the good fruit of faith?

The initial works are the nourishing of the tree of faith.  It is the building of our testimonies and increasing that source of inspiration for us.  It is all internal.

The good fruit shown forth is all about what we do to others.  Charity, missionary work, spreading the word, service, obtaining Eternal Life, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, having real peace in our lives...

I'm not sure if any of these are really correct.  To me it seems that there is something I'm missing about what the fruit actually is.

I think of the analogy of the fruit in the same terms as Lehi's tree of life vision. It relates to the love of God in my mind.

Another way to think of it is as light. By nourishing the word of God we gain light and knowledge. That which is light is discernible. We begin to see. And by that sight we know.