[Deleted]

[Vort]

16 minutes ago, eddified said:

By definition a simulation isn't real. It can always be re-run. In this sense, simulations don't have consequences. I'm not familiar with a simulation that can't be re-run. But we're taught that this life is our only chance. And there are very real consequences to it. So in my view it is nothing at all like a simulation.

A virtual computer is a computer simulation. I suppose it can be "re-run", in the sense that any series of digital events can be recreated. But if you include a clock as an integral part of the simulation, then you cannot exactly rerun the simulation unless you also reset the clock.

18 minutes ago, eddified said:

I also don't find value in metaphysics. They're just fairy tales for adults. They might have value to others, but not to me.

Metaphysics is the exploration of the nature of reality. I would think that the religious would be the greatest exponents of metaphysics.

[NeuroTypical]

11 hours ago, eddified said:

 @NeuroTypical, are you saying you *actually* believe we have a very high chance of existing inside a simulation? If not, why not?

Nope.  The choice before me, back in my '20's, was to remain stuck on not being able to trust my perceptions, or to find a way to accept reality was real and move on.  As I received my honest-to-goodness undeniable spiritual prompting, which I experienced with my perceptions, God helped me make up my mind.  Ever since that minute, as a result of that experience, I've been choosing to accept my senses as mostly reliable, usually giving me accurate information about reality.  

No, I don't believe I'm inside a simulation.   Or to use other words, I believe my eternal soul is temporarily housed in a tabernacle of clay, and I'm spending my time in this situation seeing through a glass darkly.  But the experience doesn't end in death, apparently everything gets a lot clearer then.

[JohnsonJones]

Sure, this world could be a simulation and yet have very REAL results.

A prime example...

Some time ago I was learning about what the police do in their training.  While training, supposedly one of the tests that they had to pass was a friend or foe identification test.

In this, they were put in a simulation.  The cadets were STILL real people.  That was real.  The actors were real people (in the film at least).  The cadets had fake guns and had to shoot those that were threats and not shoot those that were not.  It was a test.

If they failed enough times, they failed overall.  It was one of the many tests they had to pass to become full on officers.  It was a simulation with real people and things, but nothing from the simulation had lasting effects beyond that test except for whether the cadet passed or failed.  No one was killed outside the simulation, and any actors that were, were alive beyond the simulation.

In that light, we could be living in an environment made specifically to test us, which has real ramifications, but will not truly affect the rest of creation outside our own results of our test.

[eddified]

I understood Musk's comments to be referring only to computer simulations. Or at least some thing very similar to them. 

The police training simulations demonstrate someone's competency. Computer simulations only demonstrate the competency of the programmer, and the hardware which the simulations are run on. So I think these are key differences. 

[NightSG]

On 5/19/2017 at 1:18 PM, NeuroTypical said:

You start talking about implanting technology (especially in the head or hand), or moving to a cashless society, or especially implanting a credit card chip thing in our heads, and some folks start yelling about how da debbil is behind it all. 

https://dangerousthings.com/shop/xnti/

Topical anaesthetic for home implantation: https://dangerousthings.com/shop/elma-patch/

Or local anaesthetic if you're more concerned about the pain from digging deeper: https://dangerousthings.com/shop/pmk/

I know all these have been available on DT for at least a couple years now.

Or you can just get a job where they'll do it for you: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4203148/Company-offers-RFID-microchip-implants-replace-ID-cards.html

[NightSG]

On 5/20/2017 at 3:09 PM, eddified said:

Computer simulations only demonstrate the competency of the programmer, and the hardware which the simulations are run on. So I think these are key differences. 

Key differences, assuming the programmer isn't omnipotent and omniscient. (And thus infinitely competent.)

As for resetting the clock, it's entirely probable that He also exists in a state in which the relation to time as we know it is utterly beyond our comprehension, so setting the clock back several millennia would be trivial.

Edited May 22, 2017 by NightSG

[NightSG]

On 5/20/2017 at 11:32 AM, NeuroTypical said:

As I received my honest-to-goodness undeniable spiritual prompting, which I experienced with my perceptions, God helped me make up my mind.

And you're sure He looked absolutely nothing like Leonardo DiCaprio, right?

(Hmmm...then again...Leo is also created in His image...man, that movie just doesn't stop screwing with your mind.)

[Blackmarch]

On May 18, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Bananafax said:

This may be the wrong forum for this topic, but I have no idea what the correct forum might be. I'm completely new here (though I have a friend that writes for Mormon Hub). I have recently concluded reading the Wait But Why posts about Elon Musk's work toward Tesla, SpaceX, and Neuralink. These posts can be found here:

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/05/elon-musk-the-worlds-raddest-man.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/08/how-and-why-spacex-will-colonize-mars.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html

If you haven't read them, I would highly suggest you read them. The author is a popular blogger that had the opportunity to interview Elon Musk on multiple occasions (Be aware that the blogger does use strong language multiple times). However, given that the all of those posts have a cumulative page count ~600 Kindle pages long, I'll give a very, very brief summary.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY

Elon Musk is a billionaire that got rich in the late 90s / early 2000s when he co-created and sold Pay-pal. Instead of using his money to retire, he risked everything (and I mean everything) to create two incredibly risky companies: Tesla and SpaceX. After nearly losing everything in 2008 when SpaceX had 3 consecutive rockets explode on the launch pad, as well as seeing a slight failure in the Tesla Roadster, he invested the rest of his money in one last rocket launch. This last rocket was successful, resulting in a multi-billion dollar contract with NASA.

Today Elon Musk is revolutionizing the world faster than we understand. There are only 6 known entities in the world that can launch a rocket into Space and have anything survive re-entry, and SpaceX is the only non-country on that list. Within 20 years from now, it is possible that more than half of all cars will be electric, and we will have landed several people on Mars. Also, he recently started a company where he and an incredibly impressive team of scientists are looking into connecting human brains to computers (and therefore, to other people).

In the future (possibly our lifetimes) he has 3 incredibly ambitious goals:
 - Send 1,000,000 people to Mars
 - Have every form of transportation (except rockets) run on electric induction motors, being powered through solar (possibly wind or nuclear) technologies. Also, transform the power grid to clean technologies.
 - Develop a non-invasive computer/brain interface with a bandwidth of at least 1,000,000 simultaneously recorded neurons.

His vision is a future in which humankind are no longer a single-planet species, where we no longer are in danger of global warming, and where we are no longer limited by the speed/bandwidth of our vocal cords.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A note on Elon Musk:

Elon Musk is a walking computer. The man thinks of himself and everyone around him as computers. He is also an atheist. He has nothing against religion, and would almost assuredly change his mind if new facts came to light. His goal is to improve everyone's life simultaneously, which seems pretty charitable. Like many walking computers, he has had a pretty rough personal life recently. He divorced his wife of several decades to marry a model (you may know her as the attractive woman in Inception that the character Eames impersonates--the one that gives her six-digit phone number to Robert Fischer). He has also divorced her twice. He works ~100 hours every week and expects ~80 hours from a large number of his employees. His entire life is devoted to these three companies. In a church sense, this man seems to be living a pretty solidly "terrestrial" life--a pretty good man without belief in God.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been thinking about the gospel implications each of these goals, and have wondered how these things will affect the church in the coming years (assuming that the Second Coming doesn't come first).

I'll skip Tesla. I'll assume that there's nothing but benefit to the church in a safer, cleaner world. The only possible caveat is the general artificial intelligence question which may arrive as the computers driving cars become "smarter", which is an entirely different can of worms.

Let's assume that in the near future there are 1,000,000 people on Mars, and there happens to be a few dozen church members as well. How does the church function as an interplanetary unit? Is there any reason that humans will not become a multi-planetary species? If so, does that necessarily entail that the Second Coming will happen before this goal? How does the Second Coming / millennium work if there are two planets with humans on them?

Now here's the meatier issue: Neuralink.

It is possible that in our lifetimes a technology will be developed that allows two human beings to share information directly from brain to brain or brain to computer. Though nobody knows what this means, it could be possible to change your brain chemistry to avoid unwanted thoughts or desires. It would also be possible to share thoughts/memories directly with another human being. First question: would the LDS Church/God be against members receiving a "neuralink?" Would it be against free agency to change your natural-man desires to no longer desire "bad" things? Would it be sinful to experience the memories of someone else sinning? Would it be wrong to erase your memory of a sin before asking forgiveness from God?

Now nobody knows what the future will hold, and there isn't much to gain from speculation about it. I just thought that the interesting church conundrums that these technologies could hold might be interesting and also shed some light on the nature of some church doctrines (with a lowercase d, the true Doctrine of the church is the same in all lights).

I hope he is successful and will inspire others to work businesses in that direction.

 

 

It would be nifty to have a branch on mars.

[Blackmarch]

As for reality being a simulation, i cant prove or disprove it. Its an interesting idea to be sure, but i'll err on the side of it not being a simulation.

[NightSG]

12 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

As for reality being a simulation, i cant prove or disprove it.

If you could, it would break the simulation, and remember we're talking about a perfect Programmer here.

[Anddenex]

On 5/18/2017 at 9:41 AM, Bananafax said:

This may be the wrong forum for this topic, but I have no idea what the correct forum might be. I'm completely new here (though I have a friend that writes for Mormon Hub). I have recently concluded reading the Wait But Why posts about Elon Musk's work toward Tesla, SpaceX, and Neuralink. These posts can be found here:

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/05/elon-musk-the-worlds-raddest-man.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/08/how-and-why-spacex-will-colonize-mars.html
http://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html

If you haven't read them, I would highly suggest you read them. The author is a popular blogger that had the opportunity to interview Elon Musk on multiple occasions (Be aware that the blogger does use strong language multiple times). However, given that the all of those posts have a cumulative page count ~600 Kindle pages long, I'll give a very, very brief summary.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY

Elon Musk is a billionaire that got rich in the late 90s / early 2000s when he co-created and sold Pay-pal. Instead of using his money to retire, he risked everything (and I mean everything) to create two incredibly risky companies: Tesla and SpaceX. After nearly losing everything in 2008 when SpaceX had 3 consecutive rockets explode on the launch pad, as well as seeing a slight failure in the Tesla Roadster, he invested the rest of his money in one last rocket launch. This last rocket was successful, resulting in a multi-billion dollar contract with NASA.

Today Elon Musk is revolutionizing the world faster than we understand. There are only 6 known entities in the world that can launch a rocket into Space and have anything survive re-entry, and SpaceX is the only non-country on that list. Within 20 years from now, it is possible that more than half of all cars will be electric, and we will have landed several people on Mars. Also, he recently started a company where he and an incredibly impressive team of scientists are looking into connecting human brains to computers (and therefore, to other people).

In the future (possibly our lifetimes) he has 3 incredibly ambitious goals:
 - Send 1,000,000 people to Mars
 - Have every form of transportation (except rockets) run on electric induction motors, being powered through solar (possibly wind or nuclear) technologies. Also, transform the power grid to clean technologies.
 - Develop a non-invasive computer/brain interface with a bandwidth of at least 1,000,000 simultaneously recorded neurons.

His vision is a future in which humankind are no longer a single-planet species, where we no longer are in danger of global warming, and where we are no longer limited by the speed/bandwidth of our vocal cords.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A note on Elon Musk:

Elon Musk is a walking computer. The man thinks of himself and everyone around him as computers. He is also an atheist. He has nothing against religion, and would almost assuredly change his mind if new facts came to light. His goal is to improve everyone's life simultaneously, which seems pretty charitable. Like many walking computers, he has had a pretty rough personal life recently. He divorced his wife of several decades to marry a model (you may know her as the attractive woman in Inception that the character Eames impersonates--the one that gives her six-digit phone number to Robert Fischer). He has also divorced her twice. He works ~100 hours every week and expects ~80 hours from a large number of his employees. His entire life is devoted to these three companies. In a church sense, this man seems to be living a pretty solidly "terrestrial" life--a pretty good man without belief in God.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been thinking about the gospel implications each of these goals, and have wondered how these things will affect the church in the coming years (assuming that the Second Coming doesn't come first).

I'll skip Tesla. I'll assume that there's nothing but benefit to the church in a safer, cleaner world. The only possible caveat is the general artificial intelligence question which may arrive as the computers driving cars become "smarter", which is an entirely different can of worms.

Let's assume that in the near future there are 1,000,000 people on Mars, and there happens to be a few dozen church members as well. How does the church function as an interplanetary unit? Is there any reason that humans will not become a multi-planetary species? If so, does that necessarily entail that the Second Coming will happen before this goal? How does the Second Coming / millennium work if there are two planets with humans on them?

Now here's the meatier issue: Neuralink.

It is possible that in our lifetimes a technology will be developed that allows two human beings to share information directly from brain to brain or brain to computer. Though nobody knows what this means, it could be possible to change your brain chemistry to avoid unwanted thoughts or desires. It would also be possible to share thoughts/memories directly with another human being. First question: would the LDS Church/God be against members receiving a "neuralink?" Would it be against free agency to change your natural-man desires to no longer desire "bad" things? Would it be sinful to experience the memories of someone else sinning? Would it be wrong to erase your memory of a sin before asking forgiveness from God?

Now nobody knows what the future will hold, and there isn't much to gain from speculation about it. I just thought that the interesting church conundrums that these technologies could hold might be interesting and also shed some light on the nature of some church doctrines (with a lowercase d, the true Doctrine of the church is the same in all lights).

What is it with human nature that loves to exaggerate a person's ability and accomplishments? "Today Elon Musk is revolutionizing the world faster than we understand." No he isn't. He wasn't first person to come up with electric cars. He isn't the first person to talk about inhabiting other planets and the potential possibilities. Not concerned about global warming (oh sorry, climate change, the climate has been changing since the creation of this earth. I am pretty sure there is climate change on all other planets that the sons and daughters of God inhabit).

"Elon Musk is a walking computer." No, he isn't. He may be smart, but he isn't a walking computer. Elon Musk has money and with money he is seeking opportunities to create, change, and make better. That is good. 

How does the church function as an interplanetary unit?

The same way it functions with membership on different continents. If the planets are not able to communicate then the Lord will call disciples to direct the affairs of his Church and his gospel (same way it was done with Biblical prophets and Book of Mormon prophets, and all other chosen leaders who were on different continents that we don't have their records yet).

Is there any reason that humans will not become a multi-planetary species?

No, as long as we have the knowledge, and nothing prohibiting progression, sure we can become multi-planetary species.

If so, does that necessarily entail that the Second Coming will happen before this goal? How does the Second Coming / millennium work if there are two planets with humans on them?

Don't know if the Second Coming will happen before this goal, my assumptions are that it will, but that is solely an assumption as no man knows the day this will come. It will work out the same way as any planet that receives a terrestrial state. God is able to visit any planet he created. Christ will rule an reign in the same way multiple kingdoms are ruled on different continents.

First question: would the LDS Church/God be against members receiving a "neuralink?"

Don't know, as this will depend on what can result from these implants. Can these implants be "hacked", result in "virus" attacks, if so, I would be surprised if the Church didn't come out with a strong recommendation to avoid them. If they can't be hacked, they are able to enhance life, enhance communication, I can't see the Church saying anything about it.

Would it be against free agency to change your natural-man desires to no longer desire "bad" things?

Yes, if our ability to choose is removed and we can only choose Good or Evil then reread 2 Nephi chapter 2.

Would it be sinful to experience the memories of someone else sinning?

Odd question, why would anyone want to experience the memory of someone else sinning. If this was an option, and I had this, I would turn this function off. Disturbing. My mind emerges these types of questions, "Experiencing someone committing adultery, fornication, murder, and other despicable actions?" Ya, no thank you.

Would it be wrong to erase your memory of a sin before asking forgiveness from God?

How would you know what to ask forgiveness of? Write it down before you erase it, and then wonder why you even wrote it down? Our ability to remember is why we can change, grow, and increase. I am not sure what I would have left if I erased all my "sins" from memory and since I don't remember them I have no need to ask for forgiveness -- dude I'm perfect!

I could only imagine children using this technology, "I kicked Jimmy's cat. No I didn't, Jimmy has a cat? When did he get a cat? Crap went to far on memory erase." Erasing memory doesn't change what we did wrong, but unfortunately we would loose the knowledge, compassion, guilt, and other emotions, and I am fine with having these memories. They have made me a better person.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

If you could, it would break the simulation, and remember we're talking about a perfect Programmer here.

It occurs to me that some of us have fundamentally different ideas of what a "simulation" is from others. I am thinking of the model of a virtual computer. It is called a "virtual" computer because it simulates the underlying hardware. The "virtual computer" circuits are not silicon and metal, but programmatic constructs running on another computer or computers. Of course, eventually there are wires involved; but if you query the virtual computer for its register value, the virtual computer will check its "register", which will not actually be a register at all, but ultimately some value stored in RAM somewhere.

But, you see, from the point of view of the computer (assuming your VM manager doesn't spill the beans), it doesn't know the registers are virtual. It doesn't know that the memory it allocates is actually "virtual memory" and that its memory map does not refer to physical memory space. From the virtual computer's point of view, everything works just exactly as it would work on an actual, silicon-and-copper computer. There is literally no difference between the "virtual" computer and a "real" computer, at least from the point of view of the computer itself and how it operates.

Based on this model, I don't see any reason why our own existence might not in some sense be "virtual", nor do I see that it makes a lick of difference. I'd be interested to hear from those who have a different idea of what a "simulation" might be and why it would matter.

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Based on this model, I don't see any reason why our own existence might not in some sense be "virtual", nor do I see that it makes a lick of difference. I'd be interested to hear from those who have a different idea of what a "simulation" might be and why it would matter.

So does Revelation actually describe all that disk churning and CPU/memory drama that goes on anyway when you click "cancel?"

[mordorbund]

On 5/18/2017 at 11:41 AM, Bananafax said:

SUMMARY

Elon Musk is a billionaire that got rich in the late 90s / early 2000s when he co-created and sold Pay-pal. Instead of using his money to retire, he risked everything (and I mean everything) to create two incredibly risky companies: Tesla and SpaceX. After nearly losing everything in 2008 when SpaceX had 3 consecutive rockets explode on the launch pad, as well as seeing a slight failure in the Tesla Roadster, he invested the rest of his money in one last rocket launch. This last rocket was successful, resulting in a multi-billion dollar contract with NASA.

Today Elon Musk is revolutionizing the world faster than we understand. There are only 6 known entities in the world that can launch a rocket into Space and have anything survive re-entry, and SpaceX is the only non-country on that list. Within 20 years from now, it is possible that more than half of all cars will be electric, and we will have landed several people on Mars. Also, he recently started a company where he and an incredibly impressive team of scientists are looking into connecting human brains to computers (and therefore, to other people).

In the future (possibly our lifetimes) he has 3 incredibly ambitious goals:
 - Send 1,000,000 people to Mars
 - Have every form of transportation (except rockets) run on electric induction motors, being powered through solar (possibly wind or nuclear) technologies. Also, transform the power grid to clean technologies.
 - Develop a non-invasive computer/brain interface with a bandwidth of at least 1,000,000 simultaneously recorded neurons.

His vision is a future in which humankind are no longer a single-planet species, where we no longer are in danger of global warming, and where we are no longer limited by the speed/bandwidth of our vocal cords.

I think you just described a Bond villain.

[eddified]

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/06/elon-musk-the-worlds-population-is-accelerating-toward-collapse-and-nobody-cares.html

[Guest]

On 5/20/2017 at 9:50 AM, zil said:

Someone should make a movie...

Or even a trilogy.