Premortal Life?

[ProDeo]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Thanks for the background.  It helps.

The choosing to remain in His presence was not really an option at all.  It is like saying, we can choose to remain children.  Well, there's this thing called "aging" (visualize Chris Farley) which kinda just happens.  Is it "force"?  No.  It just happens.  The only way to keep from aging is to die.

In the same way, we had progressed and grown in the Presence of the Father until it was time to grow up.  The only way out of it was to join Satan and "spiritually die" by rejecting the idea of growing up.

So, you can think of mortal life as "being sent away to college."  We need to grow up.  We're going to make many mistakes along the way.  But that is part of the growing process.  We can call home for advice.  But there are some things that simply cannot be "explained" or "taught."  They must be learned through experience.  That is what the mortal experience is for.

If you're asking for the logic behind it, there is a great deal of the background and context that helps understand it.  It isn't easy to relate that all in a single post.  But you are getting bits and pieces from various posts which I hope will help.[/quote]

Yes it helps to understand your belief system better.

 

Quote

If you're asking for evidence in scripture that it is true, the first one Mormons will point to is:

Our interpretation of this is not some metaphorical meaning.  We believe the Father LITERALLY knew Jeremiah as his spirit child in the pre-mortal life.  Many people were "fore-ordained" to certain missions and callings in life.

While we don't believe in pre-destination, we do believe that we were given certain assignments or missions to perform in our mortal lives.  We'd call this

Wish the Jeremiah passage was conclusive then I don't have to doubt any longer. Jeremiah was indeed fore-ordained but that doesn't proof pre-mortal live. The same can be said about John the Baptist (Mal 4:5), even Judas. Part of fore-ordained is God's mysterious ability to look ahead in time, prohecies.

Edited July 11, 2017 by ProDeo

[person0]

21 hours ago, ProDeo said:

One of those questions, why would I -- living in the presence of God -- want to go into a sinful body and displease the Lord? . . . I just can't believe a loving God would force the creatures He loves into such a position and then blame them for being sinners.

I think it will make it easier to answer your questions/concerns if we understand your belief about God's purpose.  In your belief, why did God create mankind?

I want to elaborate by relating certain mainstream Christian views from my LDS paradigm to help you understand why that is an important question.

If there is no pre-mortal life, then Adam and Eve's existence began only at the moment God breathed into them the breath of life.  God placed Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and gave them a commandment to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  In the moment God created them, was their body sinful?  Or was it only sinful after after they ate the fruit?  If it was already sinful, then God just forced the creatures he loves into that position and then blamed them for being sinners.  If the body was only sinful after they ate the fruit, why did God create the fruit in the first place?

Going beyond that, most Christians for some reason tend to believe that if Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit we would all be born in the garden of Eden, in a perfect and sinless world.  If you also come from that view, just because Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit, what makes you think you would also not eat the fruit?  Is it not reasonable to conclude that eventually, of the billions of people born to earth, one of us would have eaten it?

If God is a loving God who would not force his creatures into such a position and then blame them, do you believe that people who don't accept Christ because they are not aware of Him are going to hell, or will somehow get another chance?  If they don't get another chance, how did God not force that upon them without the appropriate opportunity?

When considering the concept of original sin:  If God is a loving God, how come just because Adam and Eve at the fruit, I had to be born with the stain of sin even before making a single choice?  Why didn't God make each of us separately and put us in the garden 1 at a time to choose for ourselves to eat or not eat the fruit?

I am not trying to argue, but instead to give you some food for thought which could help open your mind to another way of thinking.  As you can see, the answers to these questions (and others not asked) depend heavily on your perception of why God created us in the first place.  Depending on your perspective, you might already believe in a God who would force his creatures into situations and still blame them; even worse would be not having an answer to reconcile the 'why'.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

What I meant was that's impossible for me to write more than 1 or 2 (significant) postings as a) there is so many new information to process and b) I am a bit handicapped because English isn't my native language. I am a Dutchie and you know what is said: as a finishing touch God created the Dutch

Why didn't you say so earlier!  Here's a nice Nederlands resource on the Fall  https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=nld

We can get you anything else in Dutch as well.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[zil]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

Perhaps the (or part of the) answer is that Jesus was the only one who was aware of His life in heaven. John 8:58, 17:5

I have no idea how that worked (did he remember from infancy (John's writings imply not), or did he learn so much that eventually his memory of pre-mortality could not be kept from him), but I agree that he probably was aware of his life in heaven during his mortality.  I personally suspect that we are the only thing keeping ourselves from that memory - that if we could manage to draw close enough to God, we would begin to remember.  But that's my personal suspicion and certainly not Mormon doctrine.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

Wish the Jeremiah passage was conclusive then I don't have to doubt any longer. Jeremiah was indeed fore-ordained but that doesn't proof pre-mortal live. The same can be said about John the Baptist (Mal 4:5), even Judas. Part of fore-ordained is God's mysterious ability to look ahead in time, prohecies.

Well, I'm not arguing for against anything.  I'm saying that is our interpretation.  You've offered yours.  Both are based on assumptions that each of our positions is true to begin with.  Without those assumptions, it could mean anything.  That's all there is to it.

[ProDeo]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Well, I'm not arguing for against anything.  I'm saying that is our interpretation.  You've offered yours.  Both are based on assumptions that each of our positions is true to begin with.  Without those assumptions, it could mean anything.  That's all there is to it.

Oh well, those individual interpretations are often a pain indeed. Not so long ago in another forum John 12:32 came up [ 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. ] and there were 5 (!!) different interpretations by the people who participated in that thread.

[ProDeo]

9 hours ago, zil said:

I have no idea how that worked (did he remember from infancy (John's writings imply not), or did he learn so much that eventually his memory of pre-mortality could not be kept from him), but I agree that he probably was aware of his life in heaven during his mortality.  I personally suspect that we are the only thing keeping ourselves from that memory - that if we could manage to draw close enough to God, we would begin to remember.  But that's my personal suspicion and certainly not Mormon doctrine.

Perhaps because Jesus was without sin? Or, and I am not sure what your beliefs are on this subject, because Jesus was God incarnated in the flesh?

Edited July 12, 2017 by ProDeo
spelling

[ProDeo]

9 hours ago, person0 said:

I think it will make it easier to answer your questions/concerns if we understand your belief about God's purpose.  In your belief, why did God create mankind?

Wow...........

It's the exact question that came up in my mind in 2008 and I started praying for an answer. I also joined a Bible Forum and that was my first post, why did God create us? And I was (and still am) somewhat amazed that during the years of my participation (I still go there) there is little interest in the subject among Protestants. Nevertheless during the years I got bits and pieces and currently have 2 theories (I don't dare to call them beliefs yet), one with pre-mortal life and one without, the Protestants version so to say.

Allow me to think first about what you wrote before I will comment.

[zil]

5 hours ago, ProDeo said:

Perhaps because Jesus was without sin? Or, and I am not sure what your beliefs are on this subject, because Jesus was God incarnated in the flesh?

I'm not sure what your initial question is addressing (from context and structure, you appear to be suggesting a possible answer to a question, I'm just not sure what the question is).  As to your second question, yes, we believe Jesus Christ was without sin and was "God the Son" (to put it in terms which hopefully make sense to both of us) - the Son of God and part of the Godhead himself - but in our belief, distinct from God the Father.

[ProDeo]

1 hour ago, zil said:

I'm not sure what your initial question is addressing (from context and structure, you appear to be suggesting a possible answer to a question, I'm just not sure what the question is).  As to your second question, yes, we believe Jesus Christ was without sin and was "God the Son" (to put it in terms which hopefully make sense to both of us) - the Son of God and part of the Godhead himself - but in our belief, distinct from God the Father.

Context was why Jesus as only one (per John 8:58 and 17:5) was aware of His life in heaven.

[zil]

Just now, ProDeo said:

Context was why Jesus as only one (per John 8:58 and 17:5) was aware of His life in heaven.

Ah, got it, yes, absolutely agree.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, ProDeo said:

Oh well, those individual interpretations are often a pain indeed. Not so long ago in another forum John 12:32 came up [ 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. ] and there were 5 (!!) different interpretations by the people who participated in that thread.

That sounds about right.  It certainly isn't a new phenomenon.  Here is a quote from Joseph Smith (first prophet of this dispensation):

Quote

Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

[person0]

5 hours ago, ProDeo said:

Wow...........

It's the exact question that came up in my mind in 2008 and I started praying for an answer. I also joined a Bible Forum and that was my first post, why did God create us? And I was (and still am) somewhat amazed that during the years of my participation (I still go there) there is little interest in the subject among Protestants. Nevertheless during the years I got bits and pieces and currently have 2 theories (I don't dare to call them beliefs yet), one with pre-mortal life and one without, the Protestants version so to say.

Allow me to think first about what you wrote before I will comment.

I have had a similar experience with this subject among protestants.  Usually, the most common answer I receive is, "We were created to glorify God."  I rarely get more than that, and to me that is a non-answer.  If that is the full extent of it, it makes it sound like we are just little play toys that God made for his own pleasure, and in my mind, it messes with a lot of the other attributes we ascribe to God, and ruins other aspects of Christianity that I and many hold dear.

Rather than go into more depth on that, I will instead provide you with my personal answer from the LDS perspective as to why I believe God created us in hopes that either it might ring true for you, or at least that it might help as you ponder the topic.  I make no reservation about the fact that I will be pulling from scriptural sources outside of the Holy Bible, this is an important part of the LDS paradigm.

First the short version:

God's purpose is to elevate man to a state of immortality and eternal life.

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For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Pearl of Great Price - Moses 1:39)

From this verse alone, we learn that God's purpose is unselfish.  He has a specific goal in mind, He wishes to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life.  The question remains, why does He want to do that, why would he create us for that purpose?  That leads us to the longer version:

Most Christians use the term 'uncreated' in reference to God's existence.  He was not created, yet always has been.  Are you ready to have your mind blown with 'heresy'?  We also believe that man, each and every single one of us (including you), are uncreated beings (although we usually don't use that terminology).

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Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (Doctrine & Covenants 93:29)

Okay so man was in the beginning, what's this about intelligence?  You posses intelligence, you are an intelligent being, capable of thought, motion, action, etc, and because of your advanced state you are capable of emotion and reason.  We believe that the original 'uncreated' form of man was as an intelligence, we do not know what that looks like, but we do know that it was a non-corporeal form, and that it has always existed, with no beginning and no end.  Here are some definitions of intelligence we commonly use:

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Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth that gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.  (Guide to the Scriptures - Intelligence) emphasis added

God revealed a little bit more understanding to Abraham about this:

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I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
(Pearl of Great Price - Abraham 3:21-23) emphasis added

So intelligence was not made, but it was organized?  Yes.  Existing as an intelligence is not necessarily the same as existing as a spirit being, but it is the origin of all spiritual creatures, man, animals, insects.  When a Mormon uses the word 'created', what we generally mean is organized.  We believe that God organized our spirits, he organized our bodies, and He organized the earth, all from existing eternal materials.  Why?  We already existed, God wanted us, as intelligent entities to become possessors of the light and knowledge He has.  He wanted us to become as He is.  He wanted to share His joy and glory with us.

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For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

(Doctrine & Covenants 93: 33-34)

We are unable to receive a fullness of Joy without being connected to the elements.  What does that mean?  Having a physical body.  Spirit by itself is not as great or glorious as spirit combined with a perfect immortal body.  God created us in order to give us the opportunity to gain that body, and to learn how to use it properly, so that we could abide in His presence and not be cast out.  The Jesus Christ's atonement makes up for our inability to perfectly use our bodies, and helps us to overcome and gain the perfect ability so we may one day righteously dwell in the presence of God, not sin, not rebel against Him, and not be cast out.  In doing so we may partake of a fullness of joy in God's presence.

I want to summarize in two ways, first a cheesy info-graphic of the eternal existence of you.

Now to summarize what I believe is God's purpose:

• God has always existed
• Each one of us have also always existed as an intelligent entity of some sort
• God saw that our intelligence was capable of developing to become like His.
• God wanted to share His glory, knowledge, truth, power, etc.
• God took the intelligence that existed and created (organized) spirit bodies in His own image and likeness
• God created a plan so that those spirit bodies could obtain physical bodies to inherit a fullness of joy.
• Each of us chose to follow the plan because it was obvious to us that regardless of what joyful or painful or positive experience we might have on the earth, it was worth it to obtain the fullness of joy we saw that God had.  (Just think about it, in the vast expanse of you having existed for billions, and billions of years, whats 100 years on earth? Practically no time at all, even if it was all painful, you get an eternity afterward with perfect joy)

Well, I am sure I could keep going on and on and on (I tend to do that), but I hope this gives some food for thought.  Sorry I don't have time to go back ad edit this right now, I am at work and need to be working.   Hopefully you get the gist of it.  If I have made some errors someone will correct me, or I will catch it later and fix it.  One last question to leave you with regarding this topic.  Try to imagine a moment when you didn't exist.  I do not believe it can be done, because such a time did not exist.  You can imagine a moment in time before you were born, etc, but you can not imagine your mind and thoughts not existing.  I believe there is truth in that fact alone:

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I think, therefore I am. (René Descartes)

[ProDeo]

person0, this is truly scaring stuff for a Protestant, can you tell me why there is nothing in the OT and NT of any of this?

Nevertheless I want to thank you for the time and energy you put in your post to explain the LDS perspective.

Also -

Quote

from lds.org -  a Mr. Smith sermon

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

I can't find the evidence in the Bible, God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, Can you?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

I can't find the evidence in the Bible, God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, Can you?

There is only one verse I know of.  But again, because of different backgrounds, you wouldn't understand it.

1) Recognize that to us, the Father and the Son are two distinct individuals.
2) Jesus was the greatest of the children of our Father.  He was like unto the Father in all aspects except that he was a sibling to us rather than a father.
3) As such, He also needed to come to earth just as all of us did.  His primary mission was, of course somewhat different than ours.  He came here to save us.
4) He was different than us because He was the only one among us who was completely and perfectly obedient to the will of the Father.

While on earth He said:

Quote

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:19-20

Just as with the passage in Jeremiah, without the proper background, this says nothing new to you.  But with the proper background, it says something completely different than what you're used to.

[ProDeo]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

There is only one verse I know of.  

Which is?

 

Quote

But again, because of different backgrounds, you wouldn't understand it.

1) Recognize that to us, the Father and the Son are two distinct individuals.
2) Jesus was the greatest of the children of our Father.  He was like unto the Father in all aspects except that he was a sibling to us rather than a father.
3) As such, He also needed to come to earth just as all of us did.  His primary mission was, of course somewhat different than ours.  He came here to save us.
4) He was different than us because He was the only one among us who was completely and perfectly obedient to the will of the Father.

While on earth He said:

Just as with the passage in Jeremiah, without the proper background, this says nothing new to you.  But with the proper background, it says something completely different than what you're used to.

It's not that I don't understand, it's more that I have troubles believing Mr. Smith.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ProDeo said:

Which is?

It's not that I don't understand, it's more that I have troubles believing Mr. Smith.

The fact you asked the first question ^^^ confirms that you don't understand.

ProDeo,

We've been very accommodating.  But really.  What is your purpose here?  You started out asking about our beliefs seemingly out of curiosity.  This we can try our best to satisfy.

But you're going beyond simple curiosity.  You're asking for proof.  And not just any proof, but your idea of proof based on your preconceived notion and paradigm.  As I said.  That is simply impossible.

You have to be willing to give up all your preconceived notions, the ones you think innocent as well as the ones you think questionable, to the Lord and let him guide you completely.  Then just let it take you where it goes.  If that brings you to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (and ultimately to the Lord) then great.  But if it keeps you on the road you were going before you even knew about Mormons, then I guess that's where the Lord wants you to go as well.

Proof is not found on an internet forum.  Religious proof only comes from one source.  That is the Holy Ghost.

Quote

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:26

Proof is not found on an internet forum.  It is found in the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

People (like those on this forum) can only help clarify things or characterize things in a more realistic way.  Theological proof is not found in the words of men, but in the confirmation by the Spirit of God.

[person0]

2 hours ago, ProDeo said:

this is truly scaring stuff for a Protestant, can you tell me why there is nothing in the OT and NT of any of this?

I could give you lot's of theories, but I couldn't give you any physical evidence.  That's not really a problem for me though.  I know of no other brand of Christianity that offers such a comprehensive list of answers to difficult questions.  I would say the lack of an answer elsewhere to such a crucial question might be just as bad as a plausible answer that is supported from an alternative perspective (this doesn't always hold true, but to me in this case it does).  Ultimately, and more importantly, I have a witness of the Holy Ghost that satisfies my desire for evidence in this matter.

The only part of what I shared that I would think you would be unable to get from the Holy Bible is the concept of uncreated intelligence.  Obviously in the LDS view, pre-mortal existence, being children of God, and the concept of God creating us for the purpose of sharing in His glory and lifting us up to be like Him are things that are reasonably supported by the Bible, even though a protestant might argue otherwise.

57 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

It's not that I don't understand, it's more that I have troubles believing Mr. Smith.

I won't speak for others, but I really don't care much if you believe or don't believe what Joseph Smith said.  Even in relation to the idea of possible conversion to the LDS brand of Christianity, you believing Joseph Smith is not a starting point or deal breaker.  Even Mormon's believe that Joseph Smith and prophets old and new have made mistakes and taught erroneous concepts when not acting directly in the prophetic speaking on behalf of the Lord.  Even Joseph Smith himself said as much:

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The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.” (The Doctrine of Christ)

You don't have to believe in Joseph Smith, or that God was once a man in order to believe in pre-mortal existence.  It certainly fits the paradigm, but is a non-essential concept to salvation.  If you want to consider all of our doctrine at once, it will obviously be a difficult slow progression, especially if you are trying to make it fit within your current religious viewpoint rather than consider it on it's own merit as a logical or at least reasonable concept.  You don't know this because you are new to the forum, but many including myself are not new to other faiths or denominations.  My own father is still a believing Muslim, and I grew up with southern baptist grandparents.  I know it is true for myself because I have a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.  In the same prayer that I received that personal witness, I also asked if the Holy Bible was true and received an answer that indeed it was.  I also asked if Joseph Smith was a true prophet and received that answer in the affirmative as well.  However, even if all you start with is one thing (like pre-mortal existence), that is enough to then move on to other things.  Eventually you can come to know the truth of it all.

Quote

But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea. . .

(Book of Mormon - Alma 32: 27-29)

It is your life, your soul, your salvation, and your pondering, but as I presume we share in believing, it all belongs to Christ.  Something led you here, either a sincere desire to understand the concept of pre-mortal existence, or malice of some sort, or a combination.  I sincerely hope it was the former.  Based on your previous answers about your experience with this question, as well as the question about God's purpose, I am confident that you have not found, nor will be able to find a spiritually satisfying and fulfilling answer elsewhere.  Either way, I sincerely hope for you to find the answers you seek, and if I can be a help to that I am glad to do so.

[Jane_Doe]

4 hours ago, ProDeo said:

It's not that I don't understand, it's more that I have troubles believing Mr. Smith.

Mormonism is not about believing Joseph Smith.  In fact, I would argue against any doing anything just because Joseph Smith (or any other person) said something.  Nor is it a faith where one just banters back and forth Bible verses to "prove" which of man's interpretation is right.  

Rather, each individual LDS person's faith is about getting on your knees and asking God what is True.  One should also study things out in scripture and your mind, but God is the ultimate source of Truth.   LDS also believe that God's prophets provide guidance when specifically acting as mouthpieces of God.  All other times they are men of God, but still imperfect men.  Christ alone has been Perfect and completely infallible. 

4 hours ago, ProDeo said:

from lds.org -  a Mr. Smith sermon

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

This sermon is not scriptural cannon, or deemed infallible in anyway, or have any actual active part in LDS church discussion.  In fact, the only time in that last 30 years of church meetings, discussion this speculation has occupied <30 minutes of discussion in 313200 minutes of church (or 0.009%). 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Vort]

31 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Mormonism is not about believing Joseph Smith.

Mmmmm...nope, can't agree. I believe I understand what you're driving at, and to a large extent I agree -- we learn from the voice of God, the Holy Ghost, about the truths of Christ's gospel, and not just from a man. But that gospel was restored by none other than the Prophet Joseph Smith, and his testimony is our first building block in gaining a testimony (i.e. revelation from heaven) of our own about the restoration of the gospel.

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

Mmmmm...nope, can't agree. I believe I understand what you're driving at, and to a large extent I agree -- we learn from the voice of God, the Holy Ghost, about the truths of Christ's gospel, and not just from a man. But that gospel was restored by none other than the Prophet Joseph Smith, and his testimony is our first building block in gaining a testimony (i.e. revelation from heaven) of our own about the restoration of the gospel.

The reverse: the first (and last) building block of testimony come as gifts from God.  They can testify of listening to the prophets (including Joseph Smith), but the ultimate source is God.  

[ProDeo]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The fact you asked the first question ^^^ confirms that you don't understand.

If you say so

 

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ProDeo,

We've been very accommodating.  But really.  What is your purpose here?

Talking about the idea of pre-mortal life, for you a truth, me leaning to it, so let's talk with the LDS folks, Was that not clear in the mean time?

 

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You started out asking about our beliefs seemingly out of curiosity.  This we can try our best to satisfy.

But you're going beyond simple curiosity.  You're asking for proof.  And not just any proof, but your idea of proof based on your preconceived notion and paradigm.  As I said.  That is simply impossible.

I think asking why there is no shred of evidence of many LDS teachings in the OT and NT was (and still is) a reasonable question.

 

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You have to be willing to give up all your preconceived notions, the ones you think innocent as well as the ones you think questionable, to the Lord and let him guide you completely.  Then just let it take you where it goes.  If that brings you to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (and ultimately to the Lord) then great.  But if it keeps you on the road you were going before you even knew about Mormons, then I guess that's where the Lord wants you to go as well.

Proof is not found on an internet forum.  Religious proof only comes from one source.  That is the Holy Ghost.

Proof is not found on an internet forum.  It is found in the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

People (like those on this forum) can only help clarify things or characterize things in a more realistic way.  Theological proof is not found in the words of men, but in the confirmation by the Spirit of God.

Allow me to clarify, I came here to talk about one LDS subject only. That side roads are taken is unavoidable since things are connected but I had (and still don't have) no intention to lean to (or even consider) other LDS doctrines. I find your (or better Mr. Smith) views fascinating but I think they are way out of line with the Bible.

Having said that, it's true what you stated above "We've been very accommodating", you are nice Christ-like people but reading between the lines of your post I get the impression it's time for me to leave and actually that's not such a bad idea because (as I see it) everything has been said by now. Not sure if this is my last posting on this topic, I noticed there are new replies, but if it is my last post let me thank you all for your kindness and willingness to hear me out.

[SilentOne]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

There is only one verse I know of.  But again, because of different backgrounds, you wouldn't understand it.

8 hours ago, ProDeo said:

Which is?

It was part of that same post. Right here:

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

While on earth He said:

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19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:19-20

Just as with the passage in Jeremiah, without the proper background, this says nothing new to you.  But with the proper background, it says something completely different than what you're used to.

 

[ProDeo]

6 hours ago, person0 said:

IIt is your life, your soul, your salvation, and your pondering, but as I presume we share in believing, it all belongs to Christ. 

Amen.

And thank you

[ProDeo]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Mormonism is not about believing Joseph Smith.  

Methinks it's all about him.

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This sermon is not scriptural cannon, or deemed infallible in anyway, or have any actual active part in LDS church discussion.  In fact, the only time in that last 30 years of church meetings, discussion this speculation has occupied <30 minutes of discussion in 313200 minutes of church (or 0.009%). 

Eze 13:9 - My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Deut 18:20 - But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

Stepping onto God's throne and speak in His name is a big deal and we are ordered to test the prophets and their prophecies.