Race, Culture, and Perception

[Guest]

How much of a part does race play in culture?  I don't know of anyone who can truly be intellectually honest with this question.

It's almost universally accepted that to hate someone because of race is just plain wrong.  After all, there are so many real  reasons to hate people.  Why do we have to make up a reason to hate more?  (kidding)  Well, only partially.  I think that it is really a sign of ignorance, idiocy, and/or lack of creativity to assign blame to a person's race in order to hate them.

But are there not differences between races?  Obviously, there are physical differences.  Are there other ones too?  Today's culture gives us a knee-jerk reaction "NO!"  Yester-year's culture says,"Of Course."  But we tend to dismiss them as ignorant or completely without merit.  Are we sure?  I'd go along with the idea that most negative stereotypes associated with race are just plain stupid.  But everything?  I'm not going to say "yes"  but I wouldn't rule out the idea that race also plays a role in other areas of our being.

Just because it is today's philosophy doesn't make it better or more enlightened than previous generations.  How do we know there is nothing to the notion?

Things to consider:

1. Why a chosen/covenant people?
2. Why different tribes?
3. Why literal descendant of Aaron?
4. Why a literal descendant of anyone?
5. Why only Levites?
6. Why Joseph (of Egypt)?
7. Why Ephraim?
8. Why did so many of the early who's who of Mormonism come from the same not-so-distant ancestor?
9. Why the covenant of Abraham (that through him and his seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed)?

I'm very much aware that the cultural differences between races is the primary thing that causes tension in all our interpersonal relationships.  I'm not diminishing that at all.  That is demonstrably true.  But my personal experience also shows me that we cannot completely discount other factors as well.

1. We're told that "insanity runs in the family" IOW, it is a heritable quality.  Is that only culture?  Or is it genetic?  Perhaps both?
2. Chronic, clinical depression?  Genetic?
3. Asperger's and other similar "personality disorders"?  Genetic?
4. Intelligence?  Heritable?
5. Talents? Heritable?
6. Homosexuality?

If you have any problems saying that any of these are 100% non-genetic related issues, then you must also be open to the idea that race can also play a role in things that are not normally thought to be physical traits.  Then there are those things that are definitely physical traits that absolutely have an effect on our emotional, mental, and spiritual capacities.

One's size impacts a person's general courage and confidence.  Physical abilities in general help one to feel successful in many endeavors.  Physical attractiveness will make one more confident.

If you have a physical condition lending you to SSA, will that not make you more prone to not accepting the LDS faith?

If we have an ear for music and all it's beauty, we tend to be more emotional people.  If we have greater reading abilities (my son just has a natural reading ability that had nothing to do with his training/education) we'll tend to be more whatever due to reading.

Nope, even as part of an inter-racial marriage, myself, I'm not willing to say that race has nothing to do with emotional, spiritual, or mental attributes.  There are probably limits.  But I'm not exactly sure where any lines should or can be drawn. 

One thing that got me to pondering this is that I really had to wonder why I like Korean food so much when I wasn't even raised there.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

Race, imho, is of marginal-to-no influence on most of our traits and behaviors. As a prime example, consider the very strong differences is cuisine, approach to conflict, and spirituality of Japan vs. Korea. Both are Asian, both are very close to each other (less than 2-hours by plane), both share many cultural and historic characteristics (influence from China, Confucianism, Buddhism, esteem for education), and yet these two neighbors are so very different in substantial ways. For that matter, look at Utah and Nevada.  :-)

Edited July 19, 2017 by prisonchaplain

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Race, imho, is of marginal-to-no influence on most of our traits and behaviors. As a prime example, consider the very strong differences is cuisine, approach to conflict, and spirituality of Japan vs. Korea. Both are Asian, both are very close to each other (less than 2-hours by plane), both share many cultural and historic characteristics (influence from China, Confucianism, Buddhism, esteem for education), and yet these two neighbors are so very different in substantial ways. For that matter, look at Utah and Nevada.  :-)

Ok, what differences?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

How much of a part does race play in culture?  I don't know of anyone who can truly be intellectually honest with this question.

Challenge accepted.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

It's almost [should be] universally accepted that to hate someone because of race is just plain wrong.

Fixed it.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

After all, there are so many real  reasons to hate people.  

Yep. Satan. Evil. Sin. Evil. Beelzebub. Corruption. The devil. Wickedness. Etc.

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But are there not differences between races?  Obviously, there are physical differences.  Are there other ones too?  Today's culture gives us a knee-jerk reaction "NO!"  Yester-year's culture says,"Of Course."  But we tend to dismiss them as ignorant or completely without merit.  Are we sure?  I'd go along with the idea that most negative stereotypes associated with race are just plain stupid.  But everything?  I'm not going to say "yes"  but I wouldn't rule out the idea that race also plays a role in other areas of our being.

I also think you're playing with semantics. That always works out well.

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

6. Homosexuality?

Bah.

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

One's size impacts a person's general courage and confidence.  

Disagree.

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If you have a physical condition lending you to SSA, will that not make you more prone to not accepting the LDS faith?

Lies.

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If we have an ear for music and all it's beauty, we tend to be more emotional people.

Disagree.

 

I know my answers are short here and it's not intended as a blow-off...just the beginning of what I'm sure will be an interesting conversation/debate.

 

I'll have to think about your post for a real response.

[The Folk Prophet]

P.S. You might consider my Chinese adopted niece who is more American than I am. She's still racially Chinese. She's a full on 100% Utah Mormon girl though.

Edited July 19, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Sunday21]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

•  
• Why did so many of the early who's who of Mormonism come from the same not-so-distant ancestor?

Who is this not so distant ancestor? Pres Young? Joseph Smith?

[Sunday21]

I don't think Race as a concept holds up scientifically. There are greater differences within the groups than between them. 

So within the group of those with dark skin there are more differences for most traits than between skin color groups. 

Pick a group of those with dark skin and compare to a group of white skin people, you will find for any variable that skin color is not very predictive 

e.g. Ability to do math, what is a better predictor? Skin color or country of origin or school system or social economic status? Skin color just don't tell you much,

Edited July 20, 2017 by Sunday21

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Challenge accepted.

It wasn't a "challenge".  But ok.  Whatever.

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Fixed it.

While I agree with the new statement, it addresses something not in the scope of the thread.

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yep. Satan. Evil. Sin. Evil. Beelzebub. Corruption. The devil. Wickedness. Etc.

I was sorta joking.  But still, see previous statement.

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I also think you're playing with semantics.

I didn't thnk I was.  How so?

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Bah.

Whatever.  We're not going to agree on this one.  So, just take it out of the list and see where the rest of it goes.

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Disagree. (size --> confidence)

Explain.  I could give you some studies.  And you deleted the two accompanying statements.  Did you disagree with those as well?

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Lies.

Of course, if you don't believe someone could even be born with such a disposition, then why would you?  

Exchange homosexuality for the documented case of the guy with the brain tumor who was prone to pedophilia.  When his tumor was removed, he completely lost the tendencies.  A few years later, he noticed certain feelings coming back. He got checked out and, sure enough, the tumor was growing back.

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Disagree.

So do I.

I'd still wonder how you address the points under: Things to Consider.

Of the heritable characteristics I mentioned you only said "bah" to one.  What of the others?

Edited July 19, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

P.S. You might consider my Chinese adopted niece who is more American than I am. She's still racially Chinese. She's a full on 100% Utah Mormon girl though.

I don't have to.  I'm 100% ethnically/biologically Korean.  I'm probably more American than you are (in the same sense as your niece is).

[Vort]

29 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Who is this not so distant ancestor? Pres Young? Joseph Smith?

John Lathrop. Many of us generational Mormons have him in our ancestry.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

John Lathrop. Many of us generational Mormons have him in our ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lothropp#Descendents

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lothropp#Descendents

Hey, everyone is connected to Kevin Bacon.

[zil]

34 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Hey, everyone is connected to Kevin Bacon.

Really, of the names on that page, you pick Kevin Bacon?

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Ok, what differences?

Japanese tend to be discreet and subtle in communicating--especially about conflict. Koreans are sometimes called "the Irish of Asia." Japanese food is mild, whereas Korean food tends to be spicy. Koreans tend to be pleased and encouraging when foreigners attempt to speak/learn their language, Japanese will often say it is unnecessary and that foreigners are not expected to know their language. Korea is 35% Christian, Japan is 0.5%.  . . .

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I didn't thnk I was.  How so?

It seems to me that you're ascribing a lot of things to "race" that don't quite fit.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Explain.  I could give you some studies.  And you deleted the two accompanying statements.  Did you disagree with those as well?

It's perception. I have no doubt that the studies you give would show this. They would not prove the cause of the confidence/lack thereof. That cause, to me, would clearly be related to perception, not to physical inheritance, capability, or any attribute that was not learned. Take that same "short" person, kill off everyone taller than them, and they become king confident when it comes to physicality. Perception.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

When his tumor was removed, he completely lost the tendencies.  A few years later, he noticed certain feelings coming back. He got checked out and, sure enough, the tumor was growing back.

A) Extreme examples don't prove the norm. B) The existence of a rare tumor on the brain causing strange impulse control isn't related to race or inheritance. C) How something like that manifests is still conditionally related to learned behavior. I do not think it can be proven, and do not believe, that the tumor itself caused the specific manifestation of deviance in a vacuum. The idea is ridiculous to me, in fact.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Of the heritable characteristics I mentioned you only said "bah" to one.  What of the others?

• Why a chosen/covenant people?

Not racial any more than a chosen prophet is racial. God is no respector of persons...but He must do His work through somebody.

• Why different tribes?

They are a reality. But I'm not sure how this plays into your point. Do any of the tribes have advantages over the others?

• Why literal descendant of Aaron?

Responsibility is different than capability.

• Why a literal descendant of anyone?

Same answer.

• Why only Levites?

Same answer.

• Why Joseph (of Egypt)?

Same answer...I think. Not sure I get this one as to consideration-ablity.

• Why Ephraim?

Same answer.

• Why did so many of the early who's who of Mormonism come from the same not-so-distant ancestor?

Not sure this is related to race.

• Why the covenant of Abraham (that through him and his seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed)?

Also not racial. All may receive said blessings. ALL.

• We're told that "insanity runs in the family" IOW, it is a heritable quality.  Is that only culture?  Or is it genetic?  Perhaps both?

Not all inheritance is racial.

• Chronic, clinical depression?  Genetic?

Not all inheritance is racial.

• Asperger's and other similar "personality disorders"?  Genetic?

Not all inheritance is racial.

• Intelligence?  Heritable?

Not all inheritance is racial.

• Talents? Heritable?

Not all inheritance is racial.

• Homosexuality?

Bah

 

These are still shallowly considered answers. I'm still thinking.

Edited July 19, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Japanese tend to be discreet and subtle in communicating--especially about conflict. Koreans are sometimes called "the Irish of Asia." Japanese food is mild, whereas Korean food tends to be spicy. Koreans tend to be pleased and encouraging when foreigners attempt to speak/learn their language, Japanese will often say it is unnecessary and that foreigners are not expected to know their language. Korea is 35% Christian, Japan is 0.5%.  . . .

I'm not sure I agree with the communicating about conflict thing.  

I do agree with the Irish of the East thing. 

I definitely agree with the food.

Koreans "act" pleased and encouraging.  They really expect it.  Japanese "say" it isn't necessary.  Secretly, they simply don't want them to.  So, yes, that is different.

So, this still doesn't really say anything.  The problem with a topic like this thread is that, admittedly, I don't know where to draw the line.  But other things that are nearly universal in so many cultures as well as the Biblical things I brought up, lets me know that there is something there that we just don't quite get.

Maybe it is pointless to believe in "something" when I can't draw the line and point to "THIS" characteristic and say,'there it is."  But it is a bit like faith, isn't it.  And that is exactly the thing.  We talk about the philosophies of men regarding this issue all the time.  But look at what the Bible says about it.  There's obviously something there.  I'd just like to know what it is.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It seems to me that you're ascribing a lot of things to "race" that don't quite fit.

It's perception. I have no doubt that the studies you give would show this. They would not prove the cause of the confidence/lack thereof. That cause, to me, would clearly be related to perception, not to physical inheritance, capability, or any attribute that was not learned. Take that same "short" person, kill off everyone taller than them, and they become king confident when it comes to physicality. Perception.

Since vitually all the other items play off of the first statement ^^, I'll comment on that.  Then I'll address the perception thing.

Actually I wasn't ascribing it to race at all.  I was showing how the physical can affect the emotional, mental, and spiritual.  There are effects.  That was the basis.  Then I postulated that since some physical traits can have an effect on them, couldn't other traits that we normally think have no bearing also have effects we're not normally aware of?

I never said it was the only factor.  I never said it was the greatest factor. I never said that it entirely dictates anything.  I simply said it was a factor.  I'd like to delve into how big a factor.  I simply have a hard time believing it has NO factor as is the knee-jerk reaction.  But maybe such delving is impossible.  How would we know?  How could we find out?

The concept of perception is exactly what plays into this particular trait.  Our animalistic coding in our DNA says that the stronger lead.  Again, through societal constructs and our ability to think, reason, and rationalize, we've been able to set up social constructs that say otherwise.  But as children we haven't learned them well enough.  And when a small child is in a room with a large child what takes over more?  Our instincts?  Or our societal constructs?  

[Mike]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

How much of a part does race play in culture?  I don't know of anyone who can truly be intellectually honest with this question.

I think your OP has the potential for very interesting discussion. (And your wording about intellectual honesty makes me want to try not to disappoint you. Or rather I should say to prove you wrong.)

I'm fascinated to have learned that you are 100% Korean because during the time I've been a member of this forum I created, as I suspect nearly everyone does, a mental image of you--and it wasn't Korean, haha. So, that right there suggests that race as you appear to identify it might play less of a role in culture than other factors play. It also suggests to me that our perceptions with regard to race and culture have more to do with the inaccurate conclusions our eyes lead us to make vs. what is really there. 

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Since vitually all the other items play off of the first statement ^^, I'll comment on that.  Then I'll address the perception thing.

Actually I wasn't ascribing it to race at all.  I was showing how the physical can affect the emotional, mental, and spiritual.  There are effects.  That was the basis.  Then I postulated that since some physical traits can have an effect on them, couldn't other traits that we normally think have no bearing also have effects we're not normally aware of?

I never said it was the only factor.  I never said it was the greatest factor. I never said that it entirely dictates anything.  I simply said it was a factor.  I'd like to delve into how big a factor.  I simply have a hard time believing it has NO factor as is the knee-jerk reaction.  But maybe such delving is impossible.  How would we know?  How could we find out?

The concept of perception is exactly what plays into this particular trait.  Our animalistic coding in our DNA says that the stronger lead.  Again, through societal constructs and our ability to think, reason, and rationalize, we've been able to set up social constructs that say otherwise.  But as children we haven't learned them well enough.  And when a small child is in a room with a large child what takes over more?  Our instincts?  Or our societal constructs?  

The physical vs the spiritual IS the battle, right?

[Guest MormonGator]

26 minutes ago, Mike said:

I've been a member of this forum I created, as I suspect nearly everyone does, a mental image of you

It would be interesting to see ALL of us in real life vs. the metal images we've created. 

[Mike]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

It would be interesting to see ALL of us in real life vs. the metal images we've created. 

I agree. Over my lifetime I've had the interesting pleasure of working with people by telephone because we worked in different departments of fairly large corporations. Later we would meet face-to-face at corporate parties, etc., and I realized one day that I was almost *never* right on my mental image.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

46 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 the metal images we've created

Here's my metal image:

Edited July 20, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Mike]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Here's my metal image:

We could have an interesting discussion about if and how (or not) race influenced this particular culture

 

[prisonchaplain]

I'm just not certain I've seen any group characteristic that is not more a matter of culture and environment, rather than "race." One idea is it may be helpful to look more at whether certain traits are more inherited than conditioned (nature vs. nurture). The obvious book to look at for this issue (one I have yet to read) is The Bell Curve, by Charles Murray. To entice, the book is considered off-limits on most college campuses, for it's non-PC notion that race may have some influence on us.

[Mike]

1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm just not certain I've seen any group characteristic that is not more a matter of culture and environment, rather than "race." 

Yes, and consider the "caucasian race".  What is the culture that we would assign as having been impacted by it?  I think we would see that there are so many "members of this race" with so many diverse cultures that to hypothesize that race itself had anything to do with any of the cultures just doesn't make sense to us.