When Did the First Human Walk this Earth?

[clbent04]

On 8/12/2017 at 10:36 PM, clbent04 said:

 Am I understanding it correctly that we have approximately 983 years left to go until the Second Coming?  

 

13 hours ago, my two cents said:

No

Do you mind telling me why my assumption isn't correct?  I thought it was after the seven seals are opened that the Second Coming will arrive

[clbent04]

On 8/13/2017 at 11:12 PM, DoctorLemon said:

2) Neanderthal man was not really "human" because Adam had not yet eaten the fruit.  Neanderthal man was physically like humans, but was an animal at heart and had no capacity to sin, live in civilization, etc.  Neanderthal man was essentially just an animal, with no moral agency whatsoever.

So are you suggesting that when Adam and Eve did eat the fruit, any Neanderthals in existence suddenly had the light switch turned on as to knowing good and evil, and being able to participate in God’s plan as accountable human beings?

[clbent04]

21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I don't know that Neanderthals can be completely dismissed as mere animals.  Over hundreds of thousands of years they made tools, carried them thousands of miles, used them to butcher animals, cooked food, and may well have buried their dead.  Nor do I think the distinction between Neanderthal man and modern man can be cleanly made in the anthropological record around 6,000 BCE.

As you described, the Neanderthals were sophisticated beings. How could they have the good conscience to bury their dead if they didn’t know right from wrong already?  Seems like they were very similar to human beings today

[clbent04]

11 hours ago, person0 said:

I'm sure there is a reconciliation, I'm just glad it has no bearing on our salvation or else this disagreement might be actually important!  

@person0  So you're freely admitting there is no answer right now that we can reasonable accept as to how it makes sense we have 300,000 year old human remains on this Earth? I was hoping your brain and spiritual understanding would solve this riddle for me!  

Quote

2 Nephi 2:22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

 

[my two cents]

8 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

 

Do you mind telling me why my assumption isn't correct?  I thought it was after the seven seals are opened that the Second Coming will arrive

Opened - yes, over - no. 

[clbent04]

1 minute ago, my two cents said:

Opened - yes, over - no. 

Oh gotcha. So that's why we're already put on alert. Thanks

[my two cents]

@clbent04 - fwiw - I've heard of people being told in their patriarchal blessings that they'll be alive when the Savior comes / live, raise kids during the Millennium. Also, Pres. Nelson said this in a devotional last Jan - "Make no mistake about it—you were born to be a True Millennial."  

hint hint

[clbent04]

6 minutes ago, my two cents said:

@clbent04 - fwiw - I've heard of people being told in their patriarchal blessings that they'll be alive when the Savior comes / live, raise kids during the Millennium. Also, Pres. Nelson said this in a devotional last Jan - "Make no mistake about it—you were born to be a True Millennial."  

hint hint

Eeish, that just got me puckered up. Better start fast tracking this back to church thing

[my two cents]

2 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Eeish, that just got me puckered up. Better start fast tracking this back to church thing

Yep!

[clbent04]

4 minutes ago, my two cents said:

Yep!

When you think you got 983 years in your pocket, only to find out it could be tomorrow

[my two cents]

These guys thought they had time on their side, too. 

[person0]

5 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@person0  So you're freely admitting there is no answer right now that we can reasonable accept as to how it makes sense we have 300,000 year old human remains on this Earth? I was hoping your brain and spiritual understanding would solve this riddle for me!  

 

Yes I am admitting that.  Sorry to disappoint brother.     Here's the thing, as I hinted in my initial response, there are plenty of 'reasonable' theories out there.  My main problem is that I tend to find holes in all of them.

For example:  A number of years ago I liked the theory that our earth might have been organized from remnants of other planets, and that dinosaurs and neanderthals and the like could all have been decaying and fossilizing for thousands to millions of years somewhere else.  This would resolve the problem of death before the fall on this earth because those remnants would not be from this earth.  But then, a couple of other problems come into play - why are those dinosaurs and neanderthals not resurrected (unless they were also awaiting the resurrection of Christ)?   Also, since our earth is a spiritual entity, would the other planets be missing chunks that they would need in order to receive their own paradisaical glory and eventual celestialization?  All kinds of holes.

My current thought is that everything we find on this earth pertains to this earth and lived and died on this earth.  The time frame, I'm not so sure about, however, I believe that everything involving death and decay must have happened after the fall.  I reconcile this with the text in D&C by believing that the time since the fall is indeed only in the thousands.  I lean toward the belief that the earth started out in a form like Pangaea as scientists have postulated and that it was moved over time.  God changed language at the tower of Babel, why not shift the earth at some other point.  The only way to reconcile all of this scientifically is to assume that there is something missing from the scientific dating methods.  This missing piece would have to be something that directly affected the half-life of elements used in dating (which scientists have been unable to significantly affect in a controlled lab environment).

Anyway, I simply don't have a complete answer, and I haven't heard anyone else who does either.  I believe that  eventually all real truth of God and all real truth of science are one and the same and will match up and be made known to us.  Unfortunately, I just don't know when.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

So are you suggesting that when Adam and Eve did eat the fruit, any Neanderthals in existence suddenly had the light switch turned on as to knowing good and evil, and being able to participate in God’s plan as accountable human beings?

Maybe them, or their children, or who knows?  

DNA tests do show we have neanderthal DNA in us.  Moreover, I think it is interesting, in the Pearl of Great Price, Cain (the guy who killed his brother) was able to build a city that he named after his son.  This suggests to me other DNA was around to intermarry with besides Adam, Eve, and their children.

But yes, something happened somewhere between 6 and 10 thousand years ago, where people (whether neanderthals or modern humans) started living together in organized civilization, and I think what happened was, when Adam ate the fruit, human souls started coming down to Earth.

My speculation, of course.

Edited August 15, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[clbent04]

3 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Maybe them, or their children, or who knows?  

DNA tests do show we have neanderthal in us.  Moreover, I think it is interesting, in the Pearl of Great Price, Cain (the guy who killed his brother) was able to build a city that he named after his son.  This suggests to me other DNA was around to intermarry with besides Adam, Eve, and their children.

But yes, something happened somewhere between 6 and 10 thousand years ago, where people started living together in organized civilization, and I think what happened was, when Adam ate the fruit, human souls started coming down to Earth.  

My speculation, of course.

It's a bumpy theory, but the best one I've seen so far

[Guest]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

When you think you got 983 years in your pocket, only to find out it could be tomorrow

I believe you may be missing the more important issue.  How does the advent of the Millenium change anything?  What if you get sideswiped by a bus tomorrow and your dead?  

Whether you go to meet Him, or He comes to meet you, you'd better be as prepared as possible.

Believe me when I say I know I've got lots of flaws.  There are many sins that I have a hunch will keep me out of the Celestial Kingdom.  But the thing is that I'm working on them.  Every day I hopefully get a little bit better.  I take one tiny step closer to being like the Savior.  I know I'm probably not going to be perfect even if I live to be 200 years old.  But the hope in Christ that I have is that I'm continually making progress.

Most of the time, I tend to believe that it isn't that we're required to be perfect.  It is that we continually try to be perfect and make some progress every day.  And the truth I've been telling my son recently is that even if you don't see the improvement, the fact that you keep trying means you're improving every day.

[eddified]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I believe you may be missing the more important issue.  How does the advent of the Millenium change anything?  What if you get sideswiped by a bus tomorrow and your dead?  

Whether you go to meet Him, or He comes to meet you, you'd better be as prepared as possible.

Believe me when I say I know I've got lots of flaws.  There are many sins that I have a hunch will keep me out of the Celestial Kingdom.  But the thing is that I'm working on them.  Every day I hopefully get a little bit better.  I take one tiny step closer to being like the Savior.  I know I'm probably not going to be perfect even if I live to be 200 years old.  But the hope in Christ that I have is that I'm continually making progress.

Most of the time, I tend to believe that it isn't that we're required to be perfect.  It is that we continually try to be perfect and make some progress every day.  And the truth I've been telling my son recently is that even if you don't see the improvement, the fact that you keep trying means you're improving every day.

I believe that most people who keep trying will not necessarily notice improvement in the short term, but on the order of years (or decades) you should be able to notice progress. 

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

@person0  So you're freely admitting there is no answer right now that we can reasonable accept as to how it makes sense we have 300,000 year old human remains on this Earth? I was hoping your brain and spiritual understanding would solve this riddle for me!  

 

What makes humans so willing accept Scientific theories? Do we truly have 300,000 year old human remains on Earth? I was had a debate with a logical, rational, non-religious man (as he constantly referred to himself as) who said, "We have 95% of everything already figured out. Now we are just filling in pieces." I thought the irony was a little humorous in relation to how he described himself and this comment.

Do we, as humans, have enough information (factual knowledge) to know exactly how old these creatures are?

This is one statement I find to be true. True religion (truth) and true science (factual, not theoretical) will never contradict. It is the theories of religion and the theories of science that can easily contradict.

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

How does the advent of the Millenium change anything?  What if you get sideswiped by a bus tomorrow and your dead

I'll take the bus over being scorched any day. That Second Coming stuff is scary for a heathen like me

Edited August 15, 2017 by clbent04

[Rob Osborn]

33 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

What makes humans so willing accept Scientific theories? Do we truly have 300,000 year old human remains on Earth? I was had a debate with a logical, rational, non-religious man (as he constantly referred to himself as) who said, "We have 95% of everything already figured out. Now we are just filling in pieces." I thought the irony was a little humorous in relation to how he described himself and this comment.

Do we, as humans, have enough information (factual knowledge) to know exactly how old these creatures are?

This is one statement I find to be true. True religion (truth) and true science (factual, not theoretical) will never contradict. It is the theories of religion and the theories of science that can easily contradict.

And, if I may add, the theories of science regarding the age of the earth are in complete disagreement with the revealed truth of religion.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And, if I may add, the theories of science regarding the age of the earth are in complete disagreement with the revealed truth of religion.

Are they?

Or has God just simply not told us absolutely everything in the Book of Genesis, intended for an audience that could barely manage to remember not to worship golden calves?

[clbent04]

3 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Are they?

Or has God just simply not told us absolutely everything in the Book of Genesis, intended for an audience that could barely manage to remember not to worship golden calves?

The more I think about this topic in general, the more confused I become. God created Adam as the first man, yet modern scientific timelines place Neanderthals well before scriptural timelines, the relationship of that which was living in the Garden of Eden to that which was living outside of it, were Neanterthals human and did they have a conscience, when did Neaterthals integrate with descendants of Adam and does it even make sense that not all humans today would have a direct line to Adam, and how accurate is our measurement of time using half-life analysis?

It's easier to accept the measurement of time of modern-day science is wrong rather than weave a rather detailed theory satisfying how pre-Adam Neanderthals fit into what we know from the scriptures. The only problem is accepting how bad our science must be today. If the temporal existence of man really is only a total of 7,000 years, the margin of error is VERY HIGH for modern-day science to say we go back as far as 300,000 years!

I'd feel a lot better about this if it was only slightly off 

[Rob Osborn]

36 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Are they?

Or has God just simply not told us absolutely everything in the Book of Genesis, intended for an audience that could barely manage to remember not to worship golden calves?

Secularism has grown its roots into just about every mind these days. Its like a bad disease.

[Just_A_Guy]

52 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Secularism has grown its roots into just about every mind these days. Its like a bad disease.

It's not a "disease" to seek to read Genesis the way its author intended.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

The more I think about this topic in general, the more confused I become. God created Adam as the first man, yet modern scientific timelines place Neanderthals well before scriptural timelines, the relationship of that which was living in the Garden of Eden to that which was living outside of it, were Neanterthals human and did they have a conscience, when did Neaterthals integrate with descendants of Adam and does it even make sense that not all humans today would have a direct line to Adam, and how accurate is our measurement of time using half-life analysis?

It's easier to accept the measurement of time of modern-day science is wrong rather than weave a rather detailed theory satisfying how pre-Adam Neanderthals fit into what we know from the scriptures. The only problem is accepting how bad our science must be today. If the temporal existence of man really is only a total of 7,000 years, the margin of error is VERY HIGH for modern-day science to say we go back as far as 300,000 years!

I'd feel a lot better about this if it was only slightly off 

I think there's debate in the scientific community about whether Neanderthals were truly "human"--some see them as a subspecies of Homo Sapiens; but I believe the majority view is to classify them as another species altogether.  Those who regard them as separate, I believe date the origins of H.S. to about 40,000 years ago.

The (limited) success scientists have had in teaching some primates to communicate via sign language suggests that we need to grapple with the concept that some non-humans do have more intelligence than we give them credit for.  I leave to God the questions of whether non-humans have conscience, free will, etc.  What is of more immediate moment to me is that humans *do*; and that Adam was the first being to function on this higher "human" plane of morality, free will, cognition, etc.  In my mind it is primarily Adam's spiritual characteristics, not necessarily his biological ones, that make him the first of our family.

I remember reading an essay some time ago stating that at a certain point in history (I think it was at or before the first century AD)--if any person who was alive then has *any* living descendants today, then by virtue of statistics/intermarriage *everyone* alive today is very likely a descendant of that same person.  The idea of every person alive today having a common ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago is well within the realm of not only scientific possibility; but scientific probability.

[Bad Karma]

19 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Define Human.

 

That's a tough call. I think I need my wife to give me another dissertation on it. I'm way too cynical. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Bad Karma